Quick Diachronics Challenge

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Inkcube-Revolver
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 18 Feb 2017 16:56

loglorn wrote:This one is less bizarrely away from the answer, but you've also got some changes backward. And the fact that most of the forms who have the nasal are dental and vice-versa is coincidental.

I gather qweds method would be quite suited to find the protoform, even though wouldn't help treeing the family.
Dammit, I thought I was onto something! And I've been using the comparative method, just with pencil and paper. I can't read half of the code boxes (bubbles? code boxes?) on my phone.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 18 Feb 2017 17:40

Code: Select all

keɳʈek > kentek > kʰentek > kʰentak  > xentak  > hentak   > entak    > enta
                                                          > entak    > entak
                          > kʰentex  > kʰenteɕ > kʰentʰeɕ > kʰentʰeɕ > kʰentʰeɕ
                                               > kʰendeɕ  > kʰendeɕ  > kʰendeɕ
                                                          > xendaɕ   > xandaɕ 
                                                                     > xendʱaɕ
         keɳɖek > keɳɖag  > ʔẽɳɖag   > ʔẽŋgãg  > ŋẽŋgãŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ
                                     > ŋẽɳɖãg  > ŋẽɳɖãŋ   > ŋẽ:ɳɖã:ŋ > ŋe:ɳɖa:ŋ > ŋe:ɳɖa:ŋ
                                                                                > e:nɖa:ŋ
                                                                     > ŋĩɳɖõŋ   > ĩɳɖõ
                > keɳɖek  > keɳɖik   > kɛɳɖikʲ > kɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ     > xɛɖiɕ
                                                                     > xɛɖʲiɕ   > xɛɖʐiɕ    > xɛʐiɕ
                                                          > kɛɖʱiɕ   > kɛɖɦiɕ   > kɛɖɦiɕ    > kɛɖɦiɕ
         keʈek     > keʈex   > keʈeɕ > kjeʈex > kjeʈeɕ    > kjəʈjeɕ  > kjuʈjaɕ
                                              > kjeɖeɕ    > kjeɻɛɕ   > je:ɾɛ:ɕ
                                     > kəʈeɕ  > kʰəʈeɕ    > kʰəʈeɕ   > kʰəʈeɕ
                   > keʈxe   > ʔeʈxe > ʔiʈxa  > ʔiʈxa     > ʔiʈxa    > ʔiʈxa
                                     > ʔeʈxe: > æeʈxe:    > æeʈxej   > æeʈxaj
Nasal harmony and rhinoglottophilia? [:P]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 18 Feb 2017 17:46

Sangi is really close, one more detail and I give him the crown.

I could give other cognate sets if you wanted. or the answer if you guys really want it.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 18 Feb 2017 17:53

Maybe
/keŋʈek/?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 18 Feb 2017 18:00

qwed117 wrote:Maybe
/keŋʈek/?
If it's that, I'll be slightly annoyed [:P]

(I was originally working on /ŋeŋgaŋ/ coming from an intermediate *ʔẽɳɖaʔ where the now lack of velars allowed *ɳɖ to shift back, but thinking about it, the alveolars are more likely to be the laminal group so you'd expect *d > *g, not *ɖ > *g, maybe)
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 18 Feb 2017 18:13

sangi39 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Maybe
/keŋʈek/?
If it's that, I'll be slightly annoyed [:P]

(I was originally working on /ŋeŋgaŋ/ coming from an intermediate *ʔẽɳɖaʔ where the now lack of velars allowed *ɳɖ to shift back, but thinking about it, the alveolars are more likely to be the laminal group so you'd expect *d > *g, not *ɖ > *g, maybe)
For your happiness, both are retroflex.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 18 Feb 2017 18:23

loglorn wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Maybe
/keŋʈek/?
If it's that, I'll be slightly annoyed [:P]

(I was originally working on /ŋeŋgaŋ/ coming from an intermediate *ʔẽɳɖaʔ where the now lack of velars allowed *ɳɖ to shift back, but thinking about it, the alveolars are more likely to be the laminal group so you'd expect *d > *g, not *ɖ > *g, maybe)
For your happiness, both are retroflex.
It's not *kʰeɳʈek is it?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 18 Feb 2017 18:25

loglorn wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Maybe
/keŋʈek/?
If it's that, I'll be slightly annoyed [:P]

(I was originally working on /ŋeŋgaŋ/ coming from an intermediate *ʔẽɳɖaʔ where the now lack of velars allowed *ɳɖ to shift back, but thinking about it, the alveolars are more likely to be the laminal group so you'd expect *d > *g, not *ɖ > *g, maybe)
For your happiness, both are retroflex.

Is it *kʰeɳʈʰek ? It seems like deaspiration would be easier to hand-wave.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 18 Feb 2017 19:08

I did not read the discussion, but my guess is: *kʰẽʈʰeg
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 18 Feb 2017 19:35

*keɳʈeg Seems to fit the bill fairly well, come to think of it

Code: Select all

keɳʈeg    > keɳɖeg  > keɳɖag  > ʔẽɳɖag   > ʔẽŋgãg  > ŋẽŋgãŋ  > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ
                                         > ŋẽɳɖãg  > ŋẽɳɖãŋ  > ŋẽ:ɳɖã:ŋ > ŋe:ɳɖa:ŋ > ŋe:ɳɖa:ŋ
                                                                                   > e:nɖa:ŋ
                                                                                   > ŋĩɳɖõŋ    > ĩɳɖõ
                    > keɳɖek  > keɳɖik   > kɛɳɖikʲ > kɛɖiɕ   > xɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ
                                                                        > xɛɖʲiɕ   > xɛɖʐiɕ    > xɛʐiɕ
                                                             > kɛɖʱiɕ   > kɛɖɦiɕ   > kɛɖɦiɕ
          > keɳʈek  > kentek  > kʰentek > kʰentak  > xentak  > hentak   > entak    > enta
                                                                        > entak    > entak
                                        > kʰentex  > kʰenteɕ > kʰentʰeɕ > kʰentʰeɕ > kʰentʰeɕ
                                                             > kʰendeɕ  > kʰendeɕ  > kʰendeɕ
                                                                        > xendaɕ   > xandaɕ 
                                                                                   > xendʱaɕ
                    > keʈek   > keʈex   > keʈeɕ    > kjeʈex  > kjeʈeɕ   > kjəʈjeɕ  > kjuʈjaɕ
                                                             > kjeɖeɕ   > kjeɻɛɕ   > je:ɾɛ:ɕ
                                                   > kəʈeɕ   > kʰəʈeɕ   > kʰəʈeɕ   > kʰəʈeɕ
                              > keʈxe   > ʔeʈxe    > ʔiʈxa   > ʔiʈxa    > ʔiʈxa    > ʔiʈxa
                                                   > ʔeʈxe:  > æeʈxe:   > æeʈxej   > æeʈxaj

You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 18 Feb 2017 19:46

sangi39 wrote:*keɳʈeg Seems to fit the bill fairly well, come to think of it

Code: Select all

keɳʈeg    > keɳɖeg  > keɳɖag  > ʔẽɳɖag   > ʔẽŋgãg  > ŋẽŋgãŋ  > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ   > ŋeŋgaŋ
                                         > ŋẽɳɖãg  > ŋẽɳɖãŋ  > ŋẽ:ɳɖã:ŋ > ŋe:ɳɖa:ŋ > ŋe:ɳɖa:ŋ
                                                                                   > e:nɖa:ŋ
                                                                                   > ŋĩɳɖõŋ    > ĩɳɖõ
                    > keɳɖek  > keɳɖik   > kɛɳɖikʲ > kɛɖiɕ   > xɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ    > xɛɖiɕ
                                                                        > xɛɖʲiɕ   > xɛɖʐiɕ    > xɛʐiɕ
                                                             > kɛɖʱiɕ   > kɛɖɦiɕ   > kɛɖɦiɕ
          > keɳʈek  > kentek  > kʰentek > kʰentak  > xentak  > hentak   > entak    > enta
                                                                        > entak    > entak
                                        > kʰentex  > kʰenteɕ > kʰentʰeɕ > kʰentʰeɕ > kʰentʰeɕ
                                                             > kʰendeɕ  > kʰendeɕ  > kʰendeɕ
                                                                        > xendaɕ   > xandaɕ 
                                                                                   > xendʱaɕ
                    > keʈek   > keʈex   > keʈeɕ    > kjeʈex  > kjeʈeɕ   > kjəʈjeɕ  > kjuʈjaɕ
                                                             > kjeɖeɕ   > kjeɻɛɕ   > je:ɾɛ:ɕ
                                                   > kəʈeɕ   > kʰəʈeɕ   > kʰəʈeɕ   > kʰəʈeɕ
                              > keʈxe   > ʔeʈxe    > ʔiʈxa   > ʔiʈxa    > ʔiʈxa    > ʔiʈxa
                                                   > ʔeʈxe:  > æeʈxe:   > æeʈxej   > æeʈxaj

Damn, that actually looks really good.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 18 Feb 2017 23:46

It's getting hard to comment much without giving out the answer. Inkcube and sangi are quite close, though the treeing is still quite wrong.

I was going to convey the answer through a gif but i don't actually know how to make a gif.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 19 Feb 2017 01:10

kʰeɳʈeg
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 19 Feb 2017 01:11

loglorn wrote:It's getting hard to comment much without giving out the answer. Inkcube and sangi are quite close, though the treeing is still quite wrong.

I was going to convey the answer through a gif but i don't actually know how to make a gif.
If you have a image editing software along the lines of GIMP, you can make an animated gif by simply making the images as separate layers, in order.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 19 Feb 2017 14:15

loglorn wrote:It's getting hard to comment much without giving out the answer. Inkcube and sangi are quite close, though the treeing is still quite wrong.

I was going to convey the answer through a gif but i don't actually know how to make a gif.
You can also use a webtool.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 19 Feb 2017 21:00

Gave up on doing a gif but am anyway answering it.

The answer is qʰeɳʈxak

I was going to declare a win immediately to anyone who concluded that the first and last consonants were distinct in POA while keeping that last one velar (i mean, there was a k**c answer or something, but that didn't explain yellow or purple well) or that there was another consonant in the medial cluster which accounted for the weird aspiration alternations.

Image

The groupings in this image are correct, but jeːɾɛːɕ and kjuʈjaɕ are also green.

Trying to tree any higher than this is problematic, since the proto-colors were subject to some isoglosses. There's the palatalization and lenition of that final k that happened in green and red but not the others. There's debuccalization of qʰ that happened in yellow purple and blue, there's the debuccalization of x that happened to all but blue and some other regarding the vowels.

Blue and green jumped separated from isogloss land before the others, so there are still later isoglosses that affected only purple red and yellow when they were already divided.

The two blue langs did their thing pretty much independently, but they both did all sort of crazy shit with vowels, by engulfing the nearby consonants (why the final *k mostly disappeared)

Inside green a group crossed the sea and lost contact, then innovating some stuff, but even then they're hard to tree:

jeːɾɛːɕ and kjuʈjaɕ shared an interesting CʰV/CVː/_ change, while kjuʈjaɕ and kʰəʈeɕ shared some vowel stuff such as a ɛ > e > ə chain shift.

Long story short this is an isogloss model where some langs sometimes get out of the isoglosses, by for example crossing a sea. It makes things almost treeable but not quite so. (but thinking blue is a subbranch of green is still quite wrong)
Edit: About who won, sangi got the closest protoform while Adarain did the best treeing
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » 19 Feb 2017 21:23

Congrats, sangi!

In one of my earlier posts, I felt that having *[q] at the onset for the protoform was an iffy possibility, but I honestly didn't know it could actually morph into [ŋ]. The more you know.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » 19 Feb 2017 21:28

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:Congrats, sangi!

In one of my earlier posts, I felt that having *[q] at the onset for the protoform was an iffy possibility, but I honestly didn't know it could actually morph into [ŋ]. The more you know.
Debuccalization + rhinoglottophilia. All sorts of fun.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 19 Feb 2017 21:47

loglorn wrote:
Inkcube-Revolver wrote:Congrats, sangi!

In one of my earlier posts, I felt that having *[q] at the onset for the protoform was an iffy possibility, but I honestly didn't know it could actually morph into [ŋ]. The more you know.
Debuccalization + rhinoglottophilia. All sorts of fun.

GRAH! I was so close. I did briefly consider *keɳʈxek some time before I went to bed yesterday, but then dismissed it since the addition of *x in that position, at least from my stand point, didn't really add anything.

One thing I do like about these games, though, is that it shows off, at least on a simplified scale, how you can get different reconstructions based on the same data using different ideas about how the languages are related and how they split.

Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrow, if anyone's up for a new challenge?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ashtăr Balynestjăr » 19 Feb 2017 22:08

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:Congrats, sangi!

In one of my earlier posts, I felt that having *[q] at the onset for the protoform was an iffy possibility, but I honestly didn't know it could actually morph into [ŋ]. The more you know.
[q] was the only thing I got right, apparently... That [æe] diphthong reminded me of vowel colouring in Arabic, and I knew that [q] became debuccalized very easily.
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