sQwedgepad

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qwed117
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sQwedgepad

Post by qwed117 » 21 May 2017 05:12

Named after my constant habit of making new names on the IRC that have a /k/ element that I can insert my qwed into (qwiton, qwedzal, sqwed, qwedvrotain, etc.)...

This'll be my sketchpad for the months ahead, as I try not to get too disappointed in my poor conlanging.

Now that introductions are over, I guess I should introduce my current project that I'll be putting here. And my current query.

As you might have heard earlier, I'm working on a descendant of the Ancient Greek Arcado-Cypriot dialect (emphasis on Cypriot). While my previous work on this has mainly been on reconstructing Arcado-Cypriot using Ancient Greek and PIE, I've finally begun to take the step of working on the diachronic change between the dialect and the descendant. So far, I've done diachronic change mainly focusing on the word *zdellō in PAC, meaning "throw". Right now, it descends to θολλω (^thollō)
I'm considering some sound change that breaks the first o.
Here's the current sound changes:
e/ō/_ll
ei/ē/_/_C
ou/ō/_/_C

The conjugation pattern is

1SG *zdellō
2SG *zdelleis
3SG *zdellē
1PL *zdellomen
2PL *zdellete
3PL *zdellousin

Considering that, should o be broken like,
^thollō > [thôllō, tholleis, thollē, thôllomen, thollete, thôllousin] (conditioned over back vowel in next syllable)
^thollō> [thôllō, thôlleis, thôllē, thollomen, thollete, thollousin] (conditioned over penultimate syllable)
^thollō> [thôllō, tholleis, thôllē, thôllomen, thôllete, thollousin] (conditioned over close-mid vowel in next syllable)
Or some combination of the above?

Secondly should the reflex of ô be
ô > ou
ô > ō
ô > ū
Or some varied combination of above?
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by shimobaatar » 23 May 2017 01:50

Personally, I'd probably go with this:
qwed117 wrote:^thollō > [thôllō, tholleis, thollē, thôllomen, thollete, thôllousin] (conditioned over back vowel in next syllable)
and this:
qwed117 wrote:ô > ō
In any case, though, I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this thread. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by Clio » 23 May 2017 09:25

I feel like I'm missing something. What exactly do ô and ō represent? I'm also confused about what stage of the language various forms are coming from: Is *zdellō Proto-Greek, or PAC, for instance?

(Also, is *zdellō related to βάλλω? Very curious about the sound changes to your version of PAC from Pre-Greek.)

I very much am looking forward to seeing more of this, at any rate! Greek diachronic conlanging just fascinates me.
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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by GamerGeek » 23 May 2017 17:29

Clio wrote:I feel like I'm missing something. What exactly do ô and ō represent? I'm also confused about what stage of the language various forms are coming from: Is *zdellō Proto-Greek, or PAC, for instance?

(Also, is *zdellō related to βάλλω? Very curious about the sound changes to your version of PAC from Pre-Greek.)

I very much am looking forward to seeing more of this, at any rate! Greek diachronic conlanging just fascinates me.

I think they refer to vowel length
Last edited by GamerGeek on 11 Jun 2017 22:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by qwed117 » 23 May 2017 23:11

Clio wrote:I feel like I'm missing something. What exactly do ô and ō represent? I'm also confused about what stage of the language various forms are coming from: Is *zdellō Proto-Greek, or PAC, for instance?

(Also, is *zdellō related to βάλλω? Very curious about the sound changes to your version of PAC from Pre-Greek.)

I very much am looking forward to seeing more of this, at any rate! Greek diachronic conlanging just fascinates me.
Thanks Clio. Zdellō is indeed related to βάλλω, they're direct cognates from Proto-Greek. *Zdellō is PAC (Proto-Arcado Cypriot). The form is technically attested as zellō, but I'm marking those as *zdellō. It came from a protoform along the lines of *gʷellō in Proto-Hellenic.

ô represents a currently undefined long back vowel in the development of this language. ō represents /ɔː/ in the transliteration scheme for Ancient Greek to Latin alphabet. ou represents /oː/ in the transliteration scheme for Ancient Greek
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by qwed117 » 28 May 2017 21:56

I've decided that
zdōllō > zdoullō
zdōllēs > zdōllēs
zdōllē > zdōllē
zdōllomen > zdoullomen
zdōllete >zdōllete
zdōllōsin > zdoullōsin


Still having trouble if the dialect should go through the same vowel shifts as Greek.
In Greek the following shifts occur
/u uː/ > /y yː/
/e o/ > /eː oː/ < Only Attic?
/eː oː/ > /iː uː/
/ɛː ɔː/ > /eː oː/
/oi/ > /iː/
/Vu/ > /Vv/ /Vf/
/Vː/ > /V/

Another thought is that the language won't go through the same plosive shifts in Greek.
In Greek the following shifts occur
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/ > /f θ x/

I think what's likely to happen is that I'll have
/z͡d h/>/θ x/
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by qwed117 » 29 May 2017 05:32

I had thoughts of an Iberian Romance language. I forget the exact details that I was going for though. Here's a sample of what I'm thinking of:
She always closes the window before she dines
Sampre lla zarra la fiñastra/vantena entes de que cene.

Notable things are the lla/la dichotomy, similar to Spanish, indicating that the palatization happened after ille was syncopated as a determiner. Next ę generally becomes /a/ in closed syllables in the stressed position. It changes to other values elsewhere. In rare cases, (entes) /a/ is hypercorrected to /e/. It was fun doing this, but I don't think I'll continue on it.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by Egerius » 29 May 2017 22:55

qwed117 wrote:
Spoiler:
I had thoughts of an Iberian Romance language. I forget the exact details that I was going for though. Here's a sample of what I'm thinking of:
She always closes the window before she dines
Sampre lla zarra la fiñastra/vantena entes de que cene.
I don't think I'll continue on it.
Oh yes, you will continue it.

Throw some Mozarabic into it and have fun. [;)]
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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by qwed117 » 30 May 2017 02:05

qwed117 wrote: Still having trouble if the dialect should go through the same vowel shifts as Greek.
In Greek the following shifts occur
/u uː/ > /y yː/
/e o/ > /eː oː/ < Only Attic?
/eː oː/ > /iː uː/
/ɛː ɔː/ > /eː oː/
/oi/ > /iː/
/Vu/ > /Vv/ /Vf/
/Vː/ > /V/
Regarding the vowel shifts, I guess I've come to the decision to nearly follow Greek, except retaining /y/ and /ø/ (from /oi/). The vowel change that happened earlier will occur before these shifts. Here's the vowel shifts that I plan to have occuring
/u(ː)/ > /y(ː)/ < possible that both will collapse to the long vowel, and then be shortened later
/iː/ > /i/, /yː/, /iɛː/ < last two are rare, occuring only near back vowels, and in stressed positions
/eː oː/ > /iː uː/
/ɛː ɔː/ > /eː oː/
/oi/ > /øː/
/Vu/ >/Vʷ/ < rounding previous consonant, and pushing it progressively closer to u
/Vː/ > /V/
I also think I'll add some allophones later
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by qwed117 » 03 Jun 2017 04:00

Well the Arcado-Cypriot conlang now has a working name "oikyprios" or Οικυπριοσ if you are so inclined. It's pronounced /øciprios/. The name is subject to change in the future though. It's essentially eu + cypriot, thus meaning "True Cypriot". Here's a small word dump (with genders on the nouns)

θουλλω <thullo> throw
ϝευνους <woinus> m. wine
κουρϝα <kurwa> f. girl
βουτυρον <butiron> n. butter
θαει <thai> blow
θους <thus> m. cattle
θερτθουν <thertthun> n. cliff
τσεττορες <tsettores> four
χευξ <khoix> six
κυπαρσυς <kiparsus> m. cypress
μφυλον <philon> n. gender
μφυλλον <phillon> n. leaf

Any thoughts? Comments?
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by GamerGeek » 03 Jun 2017 05:34

Does Œkyprios undergo the same plosive shift as our Greek?
qwed117 wrote:or Οικυπριοσ if you are so inclined.
Unless you're doing something wierd, that should be Οικυπριος
Last edited by GamerGeek on 11 Jun 2017 23:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by qwed117 » 04 Jun 2017 02:56

GamerGeek wrote:Does AC Œkyprios undergo the same plosive shift as our Greek?
Currently no. It doesn't undergo the plosive shift. I don't know exactly were to get the other consonants from though. Zd> th was hard enough to think about. It appears as if Tzakonian also continues 3 plosive series, but I don't think the modern aspirate series descends from the original aspirate series. (Also of relevance is the fact that Modern Cypriot retains 2 series, aspirate and unaspirated. Maybe I'll have a similar shift to retain a large number of aspirates.)

An example of a word with an aspirate is θερτθουν <thertthun> /θɛɾtʰun/ < ζερεθον /zdɛɾɛtʰon/
GamerGeek wrote:
qwed117 wrote:or Οικυπριοσ if you are so inclined.
Unless you're doing something wierd, that should be Οικυπριος
You're right there
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What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by shimobaatar » 11 Jun 2017 21:53

qwed117 wrote:I had thoughts of an Iberian Romance language. I forget the exact details that I was going for though. Here's a sample of what I'm thinking of:
She always closes the window before she dines
Sampre lla zarra la fiñastra/vantena entes de que cene.

Notable things are the lla/la dichotomy, similar to Spanish, indicating that the palatization happened after ille was syncopated as a determiner. Next ę generally becomes /a/ in closed syllables in the stressed position. It changes to other values elsewhere. In rare cases, (entes) /a/ is hypercorrected to /e/. It was fun doing this, but I don't think I'll continue on it.
Wow! Whether you continue this or not, I'm a fan.
qwed117 wrote:κουρϝα <kurwa> f. girl
Unfortunate coincidence.
qwed117 wrote:Any thoughts? Comments?
Nothing specific, I'm afraid, but I still like the direction you're taking this in.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by GamerGeek » 11 Jun 2017 21:56

shimobaatar wrote:
qwed117 wrote:κουρϝα <kurwa> f. girl
Unfortunate coincidence.
That's funny in a sad way. At least poles will find it easier to learn... [:P]

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by Egerius » 11 Jun 2017 22:10

shimobaatar wrote:
qwed117 wrote:κουρϝα <kurwa> f. girl
Unfortunate coincidence.
[+1]
And I'm sitting here speechless, not even needing to check. Please swap the word.
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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by Egerius » 11 Jun 2017 22:11

Egerius wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:
qwed117 wrote:κουρϝα <kurwa> f. girl
Unfortunate coincidence.
[+1]
And I'm sitting here speechless, not even needing to check. Please change the romanisation.
Languages of Rodentèrra: Buonavallese, Saselvan Argemontese; Wīlandisċ Taulkeisch; More on the road.
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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by GamerGeek » 11 Jun 2017 22:14

qwed117 wrote:An example of a word with an aspirate is θερτθουν <thertthun> /θɛɾtʰun/ < ζερεθον /zdɛɾɛtʰon/
<θ> standing for both /θ/ and /tʰ/ is kind of confusing...

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by GamerGeek » 11 Jun 2017 22:16

Egerius wrote:
Egerius wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:
qwed117 wrote:κουρϝα <kurwa> f. girl
Unfortunate coincidence.
[+1]
And I'm sitting here speechless, not even needing to check. Please change the romanisation.
I think you meant to edit...

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by qwed117 » 11 Jun 2017 22:44

Egerius wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:
qwed117 wrote:κουρϝα <kurwa> f. girl
Unfortunate coincidence.
[+1]
And I'm sitting here speechless, not even needing to check. Please swap the word.
I'm already aware of the translingual homophony, well before I posted this.
GamerGeek wrote:
qwed117 wrote:An example of a word with an aspirate is θερτθουν <thertthun> /θɛɾtʰun/ < ζερεθον /zdɛɾɛtʰon/
<θ> standing for both /θ/ and /tʰ/ is kind of confusing...
Uhh, it doesn't? I guess there's a hypothetical scenario where you get /θː/ <θθ>, or /ttʰ/ <τθ>.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: sQwedgepad

Post by GamerGeek » 11 Jun 2017 22:51

qwed117 wrote:
I wrote:
qwed117 wrote:An example of a word with an aspirate is θερτθουν <thertthun> /θɛɾtʰun/ < ζερεθον /zdɛɾɛtʰon/
<θ> standing for both /θ/ and /tʰ/ is kind of confusing...
Uhh, it doesn't? I guess there's a hypothetical scenario where you get /θː/ <θθ>, or /ttʰ/ <τθ>.
I'm still confused... :/
Edit: Unless I'm misinterpreting words like thullō (θουλω)

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