Atlas: new auxlang

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Keenir
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Keenir » 27 Aug 2017 18:17

Rodiniye wrote: if "stop" is now "sop"...then what has "sop" become? (yes, sop is a real word)
"sop" comes from "stop" because all roots now are 3 letters, following 3 patterns: CVC, VCC, VVC. So "stop" was not usable any longer and "sop" was free.[/quote]

but then what Atlas(ian) word has the meaning we Anglophones use for English "sop" ?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Nachtuil » 27 Aug 2017 21:09

Keenir wrote: but then what Atlas(ian) word has the meaning we Anglophones use for English "sop" ?
Sop isn't exactly a common word.

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » 29 Aug 2017 10:20

Nachtuil wrote:
Keenir wrote: but then what Atlas(ian) word has the meaning we Anglophones use for English "sop" ?
Sop isn't exactly a common word.
I was gonna say I have been speaking English for years and lived in England for 5 years never heard of "sop"! [:D]

I do not know exactly the meaning of "sop", but it would be formed by a compound word. possibly something like "nizmaiexxe" (low+compensation), looking at the meaning of "sop" in google. But I would need to find more about this particular word to be honest!

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Lao Kou » 29 Aug 2017 12:09

Rodiniye wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:
Keenir wrote: but then what Atlas(ian) word has the meaning we Anglophones use for English "sop" ?
Sop isn't exactly a common word.
I was gonna say I have been speaking English for years and lived in England for 5 years never heard of "sop"
Well, then, you haven't been there long enough to determine if it's worthy to stay in the lexicon of an IAL.
Rodiniye wrote:I do not know exactly the meaning of "sop", but it would be formed by a compound word. possibly something like "nizmaiexxe" (low+compensation), looking at the meaning of "sop" in google. But I would need to find more about this particular word to be honest!
I'm not trying to be coy, really I'm not, but I have no idea what (low+compensation) for "sop" means, and how is that useful to international communication.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Salmoneus » 29 Aug 2017 18:03

Lao Kou wrote:I'm not trying to be coy, really I'm not, but I have no idea what (low+compensation) for "sop" means, and how is that useful to international communication.
He's addressing the sense of 'sop' as 'pacifying minor concession'. But of course, a sop is more about pacifying than about concession, and the concession need not be in the form of compensation. And 'sop' also has the verbal meaning (and attached nominal meanings).

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Lambuzhao » 29 Aug 2017 18:19

[tick] Wow, thanks, Sal.
:wat:
One learns something new every day.

I only knew sop as how a slice of bread or a sponge soaks up soup at supper.

Or in 'milksop', someone who is a pushover or coward.

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing » 29 Aug 2017 18:43

What's worse, I searched the whole dictionary and did't find the word for 'quizzaciously'. Obviously, Atlas will never function as an IAL.

[:)]

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Nachtuil » 30 Aug 2017 01:06

Xing wrote:What's worse, I searched the whole dictionary and did't find the word for 'quizzaciously'. Obviously, Atlas will never function as an IAL.

[:)]
No one can cope without such words Xing! :P

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Lao Kou » 30 Aug 2017 02:05

Lambuzhao wrote: [tick] Wow, thanks, Sal. One learns something new every day.
I only knew sop as how a slice of bread or a sponge soaks up soup at supper.
[+1] Yep, that's the way I normally use it.

Of course, homonyms are to be avoided in language design at all costs, especially IAL design -- discrete meanings for everything! [;)]

sop = stop; sop = bread-dipping in sauce; sop = concession

Why, that'd be insane!
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Khemehekis » 30 Aug 2017 04:32

Rodiniye, you still haven't checked your PM box yet!
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Lambuzhao » 30 Aug 2017 12:14

Nachtuil wrote:
Xing wrote:What's worse, I searched the whole dictionary and did't find the word for 'quizzaciously'. Obviously, Atlas will never function as an IAL.

[:)]
No one can cope without such words Xing! :P
Truly.
But, on reflection, 'quizzacious' sounds IMHO like someone's had an extra frizzy, bad-hair day.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1304498/image ... cebook.jpg

Sort of the antonym to xonxie [ ʃõn.ʃi:].
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ca/25/81/ca25 ... makeup.jpg

Bring on that xonx! Bring on the superfleek!

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing » 30 Aug 2017 14:51

I'd like to see more detailed descriptions of which derivational processes there are in the language. How do you:

-Form nouns out of verbs?
-Form noun out of adjectives?
-Form adjectives out of nouns?
-Form adjectives out of verbs?
-Form verbs out of nouns?
-Form verbs out of adjectives?

The crucial point is that – for instance – each noun can give rise to a wide range of verbal derivations. For a given noun [N], we could theoretically form verbs with meanings like:

-To exhibit the traits or behaviour that is characteristic of [N]
-To turn into [N]
-To turn something/somebody into [N]

If we want to turn an adjective [A] into a verb, we could similarly more than one possible meaning:

-To cause something to be [A]
-To become [A]

And if we want to turn an adjective into a noun:

–The state of being [A]' or perhaps 'the quality of [A]
-A person, thing or abstract idea that is [A]

And if we want to turn a verb into a noun, we have a range of possible menings:

-Agent, the person or entity that performs the action.
–Patient, the person or entity that undergoes the action.
-The result of the action.
–The instrument by which an action is carried out.
-The act of performing the action.

And if we want to turn a verb [V] into an adjective, we have several different meanings:
–That is performing, or that regularly performs [V]
-That has the ability to perform [V]
-That is having [V] done to it
-That has performed [V]
-That has had [V] performed to it
-That has the ability to have [V] done to it


Not all of the above examples (you could surely come up with more of them) need to have dedicated morphemes, but you need to have thought of how to express those various meanings.

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » 31 Aug 2017 13:18

Xing wrote:I'd like to see more detailed descriptions of which derivational processes there are in the language. How do you:

-Form nouns out of verbs?
-Form noun out of adjectives?
-Form adjectives out of nouns?
-Form adjectives out of verbs?
-Form verbs out of nouns?
-Form verbs out of adjectives?

The crucial point is that – for instance – each noun can give rise to a wide range of verbal derivations. For a given noun [N], we could theoretically form verbs with meanings like:

-[...]


Not all of the above examples (you could surely come up with more of them) need to have dedicated morphemes, but you need to have thought of how to express those various meanings.
Ok, so first of all:

-Form nouns out of verbs? same root, different endings. For instance, from root "cit" (eat, food), you have "citu" (food) or "cites" (eat), etc.
-Form noun out of adjectives? same, you take the root and change the endings. For instance, from "more" (death), you take the root "mor"; add -i for an adjective: "mori" (dead).
-Form adjectives out of nouns? Same thing, it is a matter of going back to the root (always 3 letter), and add the correct morpheme.
-Form adjectives out of verbs? Same
-Form verbs out of nouns? Same
-Form verbs out of adjectives? Same

For the rest, to be honest with you I do not think such distinctions are going to a problem in Atlas, as most of them are already covered or can be easily distinguished by context. However, if you gave examples of those situations I might change my opinion! (it is very theoretical and I cannot think of examples now where there would be confussion).

Apart from Atlas noun categories, there is the possibility to complete the meaning of an adjective or noun by adding an extra root. This is especially important in adjectives, as all of them end in "-i" and there is no perfect form. So for instance "mori" (die) would be both "dead" and "dying" (as an adjective).

So: "al-itsa mori" could be the "dead person" or the "dying person".

Now context could help, but if not, Atlas could add an extra root in order to specify the meaning. For instance adding "-cal", gives the sense of "Process", or adding "rex", gives the meaning of "state". So you could have:

Al-itsa morrexi- The dead person (state)
Al-itsa morcali - The dying person (process)

So this confussion would only happen in a few cases like this one, but as you can see there are mechanisms in order to avoid it.

As for the rest of examples as I said, I cannot see big confussions arising, but some examples or hints maybe would prove me wrong!

---

Interesting post btw thanks

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » 31 Aug 2017 13:19

Khemehekis wrote:Rodiniye, you still haven't checked your PM box yet!
Sorry! you were referring to Rodinian... Yes it had around 12.000 words in the vocabulary, but to be honest I have left Rodinian a bit aside in order to concentrate on Atlas.

Are you interested? I could share something with you if you are.

Regards (and sorry!)

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing » 31 Aug 2017 14:18

Rodiniye wrote:
Ok, so first of all:

-Form nouns out of verbs? same root, different endings. For instance, from root "cit" (eat, food), you have "citu" (food) or "cites" (eat), etc.
-Form noun out of adjectives? same, you take the root and change the endings. For instance, from "more" (death), you take the root "mor"; add -i for an adjective: "mori" (dead).
-Form adjectives out of nouns? Same thing, it is a matter of going back to the root (always 3 letter), and add the correct morpheme.
-Form adjectives out of verbs? Same
-Form verbs out of nouns? Same
-Form verbs out of adjectives? Same
The very point is that there's in most cases several different words in one part of speech, that can be derived from a root in another part of speech.

Take, for instance, your brief notes on participles on page 18 in your grammar. Both of the examples you give are of past passive participles. Now, would this be the case for any adjectival derivation of a verb roots, that they (at least by default) take a past passive meaning? Or can they sometimes take a non-past or active meaning? Or does this vary from verb to verb? Or are they inherently ambiguous between active and passive, and between past and non-past, interpretations. (The last thing might not be a good idea for an auxlang, since your're simply begging from irregularities to arise.)

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » 31 Aug 2017 23:35

Yes it is was I was trying to say. The "only" case I can see where some confussion might arise is with participles. Atlas has only one adjective, so confussion might arise in this case:

al-itsa mori - the (dead/dying) person?

But as I said, in this case "cal" (process) or "rex" (status) might be added in order to clarify that:

al-itsa morcali - the dying person
al-itsa morrexi - the dead person

However, most of them will be known by context:

al-tate sasi - the known problem (does "the knowing problem" make sense? not really)
al-vatu citi - the eaten pastry (would "the eating pastry" make sense? probably not in day-to-day usage).

So there you go, most of the time the final meaning can be predicted easily. If not, use "cal" or "rex" in this case.

--

Did this answer your question?

Regards

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Khemehekis » 01 Sep 2017 03:07

Rodiniye wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:Rodiniye, you still haven't checked your PM box yet!
Sorry! you were referring to Rodinian... Yes it had around 12.000 words in the vocabulary, but to be honest I have left Rodinian a bit aside in order to concentrate on Atlas.

Are you interested? I could share something with you if you are.

Regards (and sorry!)
Yes! I'm interested. I'm considering writing the line about it as:

about 12,000 Rodinian - Rodiniye; worldlang repurposed as an artlang

Does this sound good to you?

For a comparison, the surrounding lines in my list go:

11,200 Paolanté - B. Christopher Suchsland-Gutiérrez; fictional Romance language
11,500 Interslavic - Juraj Križanic; Slavic zonal language
about 12,000 Rodinian - Rodiniye; worldlang repurposed as an artlang
12,000 HOOM - Rood Hume; intuitive a priori auxlang for the universe
12,000 Tundrian - Gábor Sándi; Romance language spoken in the fictional country of Tundria
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 60,137 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Lambuzhao » 01 Sep 2017 11:31

wien /wɪen/ is also unpronounceable. When /ɪe/ becomes a diphthong, it is almost the same as /je/.
People would pronounce /wɪen/ as /u'jen/ or /wi'en/
Rodiniye:

Where'd you get the idea for 'people' to be wien ?
A natlang in particular?
:wat:

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » 01 Sep 2017 13:57

Lambuzhao wrote:
wien /wɪen/ is also unpronounceable. When /ɪe/ becomes a diphthong, it is almost the same as /je/.
People would pronounce /wɪen/ as /u'jen/ or /wi'en/
Rodiniye:

Where'd you get the idea for 'people' to be wien ?
A natlang in particular?
:wat:
You might think otherwise :roll: but I do take into account your comments.

After the last grammar update, it went from "wien" to "win":

So personal pronouns are:

Singular:
1- wi
2- di
3- zi

Plural:
1- win
2- din
3- zin

-n is obviously the plural marker, even for nouns.

Inspiration for that one came from Chinese "wo"; although all personal pronouns in Atlas end in -i in singular.

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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » 01 Sep 2017 21:11

Yes! I'm interested. I'm considering writing the line about it as:

about 12,000 Rodinian - Rodiniye; worldlang repurposed as an artlang

Does this sound good to you?
Why not! [;)]

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