Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by kiwikami » 25 Sep 2017 19:57

Apologies that this is slightly belated; I wrote it on Sunday, but put off posting it, and then life got in the way.

Eqqwar [eq:wɒʁ]

p t k q <p t k q>
b d g <b d g>
m n <m n>
f s z ʁ <f s z r>
l <l>
j w <j w>

i~ɯ~u <i~u~u>
e~ɤ~o <e~o~o>
æ~ä~ɒ <a~a~aw>

 Vowels contrast for height, but not backness or rounding (sort of); back vowels may be analyzed as allophones of front vowels following velar or uvular consonants; if the consonant in question is /w/, the vowel is also rounded. Vowels have a length distinction; consonants also have long counterparts, which occur only word-medially. Both are represented via doubling the letter. Short vowels in stressed syllables must be followed by either a geminate consonant or a cluster in the coda, while long vowels in stressed syllables must be followed by a single consonant; stress is initial, but secondary stress is less predictable and depends on the affixes - if any - present.

 Syllable structure is (s)(C)(w/j/l)V(n/l)(F)(C). (C) in the coda excludes nasals and fricatives; these are permitted as the only consonants in the onset. Glides are permitted as the only consonants in a coda, but /w/ in the coda is realized as backness and rounding on the previous vowel (e.g. /dæ-w/>[dɒ]). (Thus you could technically say that vowels contrast for backness/rounding.) Progressive voicing harmony occurs with affixes; e.g. /is-dæ/ > [istæ]. The alveolar nasal assimilates to the POA of consonants following it; the bilabial does not.

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Word order is SOV; the language is highly agglutinating and mostly head-final, with a mix of prefixing (on verbs) and suffixing (on nouns).

Nouns

 Plurality is indicated by the suffix -ab, or -w after vowels; note that if the consonant immediately preceding that vowel is /w/, the plural form will be indistinguishable from the singular. There is a historical dual suffix -eer used now only to refer to pairs of body parts and some familial relations: twins (staameer), parents (maldeer), a set of grandparents (fafteer), or a single parent-child unit (gesttreer).

Cases
 - Nominative (unmarked)
 - Accusative (-(e)w), used for direct objects of most transitive verbs
 - Genitive (-(e)n), used for possession as well as direct objects of constructions using the light verb ska "take" (which appear between the light verb and its nominal component, rather than in typical object position)
 - Locative (-(a)z), used with prepositions, or without a preposition as a dative

Verbs
 VPs are typically formed through a light verb combined with a noun; the verbs themselves are a closed class, of which I will list only a few here (since I haven't actually through through most of them, what with the speedlanginess of it all). Examples include aal "do", iq "put down", ska "take", and berd "watch". Many of these have implications about the transitivity or aspect of the full VP; aal verbs are only ever intransitive, for instance, while berd verbs are often intransitive (dealing with experiences) but may also form causatives. There is very limited derivation possible between these; the aforementioned causative berd generally has a non-causative aal counterpart, for instance. (e.g. saal ekkos I rise, samberd ekkos I lift you up)

 Verbs agree for subject and object using a set of prefixes; the pronouns themselves may be dropped:

Code: Select all

Person Pronoun S     O
1sg    ez      s     e
1pl    est     st    e
2sg    am      m     am   
2pl    ebba    br(u) br(a)
3sg    ar      n     a
3pl    fir     w     ir
 Incorporated objects may appear, taking the place of the object marker; this creates an iterative (if the object is singular) or habitual (if the object is plural) meaning (qaapo sarberd ekkos I lift up a stone vs. sqapperd ekkos I lift up a stone repeatedly vs. sqaaparberd ekkos I (generally) lift stones). Verbs without incorporated objects may also take the plural affix after the object marker, indicating pluractionality (spraaiq peqwaar I present the paper to y'all (at once) vs sprawiq peqwaar I present the paper to y'all (one at a time)).

 Tense is generally described through prepositional phrases specifying a time frame, placed either before or after the nominal component of the verb (e.g. sirriq fimmaz peqwaar I presented the paper to them yesterday). The verb itself marks only a perfective/imperfective distinction in aspect; the former is unmarked, while the latter is shown with the suffix -ral.

Estawab glalten sirriqral peqwaar.
estaw-ab glalt-en s-ir-iq-ral peqwaar
councilmember-PL university-GEN 1sg-3pl-put.down-IPFV paper
I am presenting a paper to the university's board.

Naska fiddlaz glalt drambjelf.
n-a-ska fiddla-z dran-pjelf
3sg-3sg-take tomorrow-LOC breakfast-lunch
He will eat brunch tomorrow.

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I'll likely come back and edit this with more later, but that's all I did as of Sunday and I won't have the time to continue it until Wednesday at the earliest. This was great fun - thanks, Omzinesý, for hosting it!
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Omzinesý » 26 Sep 2017 17:39

Comments:

@ shimobaatar
Mỷzogbaran

The vowel harmony is interesting. Does /æ/ always stay [æ] or is it reduced? I would see it as a kind of neutral vowel outside the harmony.
Light verbs can really yield very nice ditransitive constructions. How would you encode beneficiary ('for X')? Does it take Allative or some adposition or is it also a ditransitive?
Could the incorporated noun be classified as a kind of agreement?

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Omzinesý » 26 Sep 2017 17:51

@ Click
Snàrıä [s̩ˈnɑɾɪjæ]

Syllabic /s/ is interesting? Do you have an example word?
Should the alignment be rather called agentive-patientive than ergative if intransitive verbs can have an Ergative subject is it's agentlike? Verb prefixes are also nice.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Omzinesý » 26 Sep 2017 18:02

@ Nachtuil
"Orkan" /[oɭqã]

"Englishy" syntax is very interesting. People just tend to avoid it. I like your noun cases. If natural semantics and context does not tells who does to whom, are passives used or are two clauses needed?
Definite articles follow their head. I rarely see that.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Omzinesý » 26 Sep 2017 18:12

@ Solarius
Sembenese

Is there some diachronic cause why mid-vowels are nasalized?
Is the alignment somehow split, because you call the case the Nominative/Absolutive?
I like causatives and applicatives.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Omzinesý » 26 Sep 2017 18:27

@ InquisitorJL

I guess I don't insult anybody if I say this is the most interesting of the langs of this challEnge.
I also made a lang with Ossicone's story some year ago.

There is much interesting stuff in your lang, of course not in the easiest form to read.
Phonology is interesting with its stresses and as/dissimilations.
You did combine light verbs and incorporation very well. It occurred to me that they don't mach very easily.
Interested to see more!

I would be interested to get a source that explains that kind of an adjective system.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Omzinesý » 26 Sep 2017 18:37

@ kiwikami
Eqqwar [eq:wɒʁ]

The vowel system is nice. I've never seen such with that small consonant inventory.
Incorporated objects may appear, taking the place of the object marker; this creates an iterative (if the object is singular) or habitual (if the object is plural) meaning (qaapo sarberd ekkos I lift up a stone vs. sqapperd ekkos I lift up a stone repeatedly vs. sqaaparberd ekkos I (generally) lift stones). Verbs without incorporated objects may also take the plural affix after the object marker, indicating pluractionality (spraaiq peqwaar I present the paper to y'all (at once) vs sprawiq peqwaar I present the paper to y'all (one at a time)).
Number of the object encoding aspect is interesting! Can incorporation happen if the verb is not habitual or iterative?

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by InquisitorJL » 26 Sep 2017 19:38

Omzinesý wrote:@ InquisitorJL

I guess I don't insult anybody if I say this is the most interesting of the langs of this challEnge.
I also made a lang with Ossicone's story some year ago.

There is much interesting stuff in your lang, of course not in the easiest form to read.
Phonology is interesting with its stresses and as/dissimilations.
You did combine light verbs and incorporation very well. It occurred to me that they don't mach very easily.
Interested to see more!

I would be interested to get a source that explains that kind of an adjective system.
I'm sorry about the formatting, I've had lots of problems with perfectionism getting in the way of producing stuff and I needed to try something weirder to push me to do it.

As for the source it's just something I remembered from the conlangery podcast, so probably either "adjectives" or "getting rid of adjectives" - I can't remember if they had a source in the show info I'm pretty sure they at least gave a name for a search term. Also been as I never did much in the way of research before that I can't say if it's how it's used in natural languages, but it felt naturalistic enough for me, and in keeping with the rest of the language's feel.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by opipik » 26 Sep 2017 20:45

Phonology

/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ñ ŋ>
/p t c k/ <p t c k>
/ɸ θ s ʃ x/ <f θ s š h>
/ɾ/ <r>
/w l j/ <w l y>

/i ɨ u e o ɑ/ <i ɨ u e o a>
/iˀ ɨˀ uˀ eˀ oˀ ɑˀ/ (pronounced with creaky voice) <iʔ ʔɨ uʔ eʔ oʔ aʔ>
/ˀi ˀɨ ˀu ˀe ˀo ˀɑ/ (modal, but preglottalized) <ʔi ʔɨ ʔu ʔe ʔo ʔa>

/ʃ/ is rare, occurring only in one word: /ʃa/ "bone". that's an easter egg in fact, in Hoyahoya /s/ occurs also in one word and that's /sa/ "bone". It's written <sh> so that leads to it being /ʃ/ here.

Syllable structure is quite complex: (C)(C)(?)V(?)(C)(C), ? is the glottal stop. Every vowel-initial word begins with a glottal stop, though. Geminates are allowed, but sequences of two non-glottal stops don't contrast with a stop + glottal stop sequence.

Grammar description

The word order is not the one I use most often (SOV), but it's an exotic one: OVS. It's almost fixed, although there are some exceptions: when there's a topic and a different subject, the topic goes before the subject.

n-ɨn nʔamrɨn-h ssuroʔ
1SG-COP height-TOP big

ñim kaʔ ɨn pumŋθʔan-e-h ssuroʔ
tree of COP leaf-PL-TOP big

As you can see, I tried topic-prominence and light verbs. The language is also agglutinative, there isn't any morphophonology (except some rare epenthetic vowels) and the only suppletive form is the negative form of the copula. I didn't do incorporation, though.

Vocabulary
Spoiler:
<ɨn> COP
<n-, no> 1SG
<m-, mo> 2SG
<t-, to> 3SG
<k-...Vʔ, koʔ> 1PL
<m-...Vʔ, moʔ> 2SG
<p-[word]-e, powe> 3SG
<pum·ŋθʔan> leaf
<ñim> tree
<-e> PL
<ssuroʔ> big
Verbs, a closed class
<ɨn> COP, <cin> to do, <nru> to go, <karŋ> to make, <yʔuk> to bring, to take, <lyoʔm> to give, <puθ> to stand, <fwaʔ> to sit, <ŋmyaʔ·u> COP.NEG, <-u> -NEG in verbs
Glossed text

There was a cat. She was small and white. When she woke up she was very hungry!
ɨn pcaŋk ŋhaw-h. ɨn-k ŋhaw-h rŋʔaneθ nkuci. puθ mhark tpwas ŋhaw-h, ɨn to-h ñmwɨs keʔ!
COP way.back.before cat-TOP || COP-PERF cat-TOP small white || stand sleep cat-TOP COP 3SG-TOP hungry INT

So she went looking for some food. She looked behind the tree and found an acorn. But cats don't eat acorns!
ke-e, nhyan nru msya θa ŋhaw-h. sñʔɨm nru msya kmho ŋhaw-h, yʔuk msya ekon to-h. cin-u nhyan ekon-e ŋhawh!
so | food go eye for cat-TOP || tree go eye behind cat-TOP | take eye acorn 3SG-TOP || do-NEG food acorn-PL cat-TOP ||

I'm late because I didn't look at this thread in time and forgot about it.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Creyeditor » 26 Sep 2017 20:50

Sorry, I am late (got distracted by RL, and it was definitely wort it [:D] ) and my speedlang is not complete, but still, here it is:

Starlet language

Phonology

/m//n//ŋ/<ᵷ>/ŋ͡m~ŋʷ/<ƞ>
/p//t/ /k//k͡p~kʷ/<q>
/b//d//g//ɡ͡b~gʷ/<ꞗ>
/s/
/z//j/ /w/

syllable structure:
  • CV(C)(C)
  • Codas only word finally
  • Labiovelars only word initially, otherwise neutralized conditionally to velars or labials (but w->j)
/i u/
/e o/
/a/

Vowel harmony:
  • rounding inside the stem, ATR inside the word
  • Disharmonic roots wrt to ATR are allowed, the last stem vowel determines the harmony of suffixes.
  • Disharmonic roots wrt to rounding are allowed, the last stem vowel determines the harmony of suffixes.
Stress:
  • phrasal stress on the last syllable overwrites lexical stress
  • All unstressed vowels are short and centralized, stress vowels are long and high pitched
Basics
  • All functional morphemes are affixes.
  • Nouns can stand without a copula.
  • Verbs need a dummy light verb.
  • Several verb classes with matching light verbs.
  • Definite topics are preposed in a sentence.
  • Indefinite, unspecific background is always incorporated
Nominal morphology:

Case, number and information status

[wordpossessor<[stemroot<number<case]<def/spec/top]

SG -0
PL -pu/-pi

NOM -0
PART -pa/-po
ACC -ka/-ko
LOC -ze/-zo
GEN -ge/-go
DAT/ALL -da/-do
  • Objects can bear any case except nominative and genitive case.
  • Locative case is used for adverbial adjuncts of time and place.
  • Nominal attributes can bear genitve case, locative case or partitive case (see section on nominal sentences)-
SPEC.DEF.NTOP marks a specific definite non-topic argument: -dent
SPEC.INDEF.TOP marks a specific indefinite topic: -idet

Nominal syntax.
  • Nominal phrases are always head final
  • Attributes are in the genitive/partitive/locative case
  • Sentences only consisting of a noun are interpreted as existential.
  • Sentences consiting of only two nouns are interpreted as
    • i. part-whole relationship if one of them is in partitive case
      ii. subset relation if one of them is in partitive case
      iii. state if one of them is i the locative case
      iv. location/position if one of them is in the locative case
      v. possession if one of them is in the genitive
      vi. properties if one of them is in the genitive
Verbal morphology
  • Tense, Mood, Evidentiality, modality are encoded on the verb
Light Verb: Mood, evidentiality, modality, tense

[word[stemroot<tense<modality]<evidentiality<mood<neg]

Tense
PST: -0
NPST: -pu/pi

Modality:
IRR: -du/di
REA: -0

Evidentiality:
Indirect: -ni
Direct: -x

Mood:
INTERR: -x
IMPER: -x
DECL: -0

Neg: -da
Aff: -0
  • standard negated sentences are always marked with irrealis modality.
  • Story tellers always use indirect evidentiality markers.
Lexical Verbs: voice, associated motion/directionality

[object<[root-associated motion/directionality] < voice]

associated motion/directionality
andative: -na/-no
venitive: -bi/-bu
no motion: -0
  • Andative is used for actions that happen while moving towards the speaker/centre of discourse.
  • Venitive is used for actions that happen while moving away from the speaker/centre of discourse
voice
PASS: -pa
ACT: -x

Verbal syntax
The verbal complex always consists of a lexical verb and a light verb. The light verb encodes apsect, aktionsart and certain other lexical properties.

Incorporation:
  • Incorporated forms usually
    • i. are monosyllabic or bisyllabic
      ii. do not labiovelars
      iii. do not contain codas
      iv. are prefixed to the stem they incorporate in
Verb incorporation:
  • Lexical verbs can be incorporated into other lexical verbs. This leads to a construction where to verbs share a light verb.
Noun incorporation:
  • Indefinite, unspecific background objects are always incorporated into the lexical verb.
  • Possessors can be incorporated into noun stems.
Lexicon (list of roots and affixes)

cat - N - mijai
small - N - qeti > keti
white - N - qusi > pusi
time, moment - N - sami
hungriness - N - ᵷowa
a lot - N - baᵷa
food - N - ƞima > ᵷima
consequence - N - ꞗadi > gadi
tree - N - ꞗoga > boga
acorn - N - kesizi
sequence - N - ꞗagadi > gadi

become - l.V - pisu
try - l.V - kona
do - l.V - paki
take - l.V - kapo
make - l.V - kasu

to wake up - V.i - wuja > juja
to look for s.th - V.t.acc - ƞama > ᵷama
to search at a certain place - V.t.loc - qipi > kipi
to discover - V.t.acc - quku > puku

Example text:

Mijaident.
/mi.jai̯.déːnt/
mijai-dent
cat-SPEC.INDEF.TOP
There was a cat.

Mijai qetige qusige.
/mijai̯ k͡petige k͡pusigéː/
mijai qeti-ge qusi-ge.
cat small-GEN white-GEN
She was small and white.

Mijai pisuni wuja samize, mijai baᵷage ᵷowage.
/mijai̯ pisuni wuja samizéː mijai baŋagɛ ŋowagɛ́ː/
mijai pisu-ni wuja sami-ze mijai baᵷa-ge ᵷowa-ge
cat become-INDIR wake.up time-LOC cat a.lot-GEN hungriness-GEN
When she woke up she was very hungry!

Mijai konani ᵷimaᵷamana ꞗadize.
/mijai̯ konanɪ ŋimaŋamana g͡badizéː/
mijai kona-ni ƞima-ƞama-na ꞗadi-ze.
cat try-INDIR food-look.for-AND consequence-LOC
So she went looking for some food.

Mijai konani bagokipi, kasuni kesizipuku ꞗabadize.
/mijai konanɪ g͡bagokipíː, kasuni kesizipuku g͡babadizéː/
mijai kona-ni ꞗago-qipi, kasu-ni kesizi-quku ꞗagadi-ze
cat try-INDIR tree-search, make-INDIR acorn-discover sequence-LOC
She looked behind the tree and found an acorn.

Kapodunida ...
/kapodunidə́ː/
kapo-du-ni-da
take-IRR-INDIR-NEG acorn-eat-? cat-PL-?
But cats don't eat acorns!

cat try-? rock-search-?, make-? bug-discover sequence-LOC
she looked under the rock and found a bug.

take-?-NEG bug-eat-? cat-PL-?
But cats don't eat bugs

Also here are my reviews:
Click's Snàrıä
The phonology is pretty solid and the small syntax section makes sense, but the incorporation of adjectives and nouns to form new verbs, making incorporation a derivational strategy, which I really like. This is also a nice combination of incorporation and the light verb concept.

Nachtuil's Orkan
Definitely extra points for combining phonation and labiovelars into a three way constrast in labiovelar stops, that's really neat. The rest of your phonology and phonotactics is also reasonably detailed. I did not fully get your explanation your syntax. The main question is: What is a topic and does every sentence have one? Also: what is allocutive agreement? In the end I really liked the style of your speedlang. It looks slightly South American.

InquisitorJL
I like the idea of labiovelars being just the realization of other languages labials and velars instead of having them as an addition. I will ket other judge how realistic that is. It is also nice that you combined tone, stress, and phonation with an eye for the detail. In general I like that you included a lot of detail in the description of your phonology. You also really made a detailed account of how topic plays a role in your syntax (including silent zero topics). Nice! You have to excuse me for not reading and understanding every detail of your description of the examples, but anyway I like it.

Omzinesý
The first thing that I noticed is that you have general yet detailed description of possible coda clusters. That's definitely something good. Regarding your case system I actually missed an explanation of the use of the cases. On the other hand I liked that your notion of topic is closely linked to promotion. This is really different from some other speedlangs.

Kiwikamis's Eqqwar
You know that I am really a fan of your conlangs, so the expectations were high. But then, you already got me with the <qq> in the language name. This looks so philosophical. The rest of the phonology is pretty solid and detailed, though I miss labiovelars. The nominal morphology makes sense in general, though I am not sure yet how and if case and number suffixes interact (think of accusative case and plural number, does it yield -w-w?). I like the classification that your light verbs induce on lexical verbs. Is there any natlang inspiration for the connection between iterativity and noun incorporation?
Last edited by Creyeditor on 27 Sep 2017 10:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by qwed117 » 27 Sep 2017 02:52

Khwamhigor

/m n ŋ m̊ n̊ ŋ̊/ <m n ñ mh nh ñh>
/p t k k͡p b d g g͡b/ <p t k kw b d g gw>
/pʰ tʰ kʰ k͡pʰ b̰ d̰ g̰ g̰͡b̰/ <ph th kh khw bh dh gh ghw>
/s sʰ ʃ ʃʰ/ <s sh š šh>
/r l j/ <r l y>

/i ɛ a/ <i e a>
/ɨ u ɯ/ <ı u o>
/ɜ ɔ ʌ/ <ĭ ŭ ŏ>
(As you might guess there is vowel harmony)

Syllable structure
(C)(C)(C)V(C)
C(C)R(C)

The language is nearly polysynthetic, and is split-ergative, tending towards ergativity
(1) ŭñbaar paiyashe << Basic nominative, "Accusative" incorporation
ŭñ-baar-∅ pai-yash-e
NOM.DEF-dog-SG pie-eat-PST
The dog ate the pie

(2) yabaar khwıdogaghaŏ << Basic ergative, no incorporation
ya-baar-∅ khwı-do-gagha-ŏ
ERG.DEF-dog-SG ailment-arrive-fastly-PRS
The dog quickly becomes sick

(3) yakhwıegaba uñpaiŏdŏ yarĭsh << Ergative, "Absolutive" incorporation, topicalization of ailment
ya-khwı-e-gaba uñ-pai-ŏ-dŏ ya-rĭsh
ABS-ailment-PST-be_bad ABS-pie-PRS-arrive ERG-rot
The ailment was bad; the pie became rotten.

(4) yabaar paiñhkŭklgyaŭdĭrthigwımhurgi << Nominative, "Prepositional" incorporation, prepositional topicalization
ya-baar-∅ pai-ñhkŭ-klg-ya-ŭdĭr-thigwı-mhur-gi
ERG.DEF-dog-SG pie-excrete-ABS-GER=feel_good-feel-FUT
The dog will feel much better upon passing the pie

That's all I have right now
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Sep 2017 00:40

And here are my reviews on the languages that I missed.

opipik
I like how you circumvent the two sibilants constraint. Very clever. Also the use of glottality is interesting. Do kˀi and kʔi sequences contrast? Regarding syntax, the topic position is used only for non-subject topics, right? That's a neat solution for some variability in syntax. The look of your romanization is also nice.

qwed117's Khwamhigor
Your romanization really makes the phonology look less exotic than it is, that's definitely a do. Also your intransitive verbs can incorporate verbs and nouns at once. Fascinating. Also the gloss 'GER=feel_good-feel-FUT' looks really tasty.
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opipik
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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by opipik » 29 Sep 2017 14:18

Creyeditor wrote:Do kˀi and kʔi sequences contrast?
No. There are only preglottalized and post-glottalized vowels, no stand-alone glottal stop.

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Creyeditor
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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Sep 2017 22:15

Oh, I get it. The rule metioning ʔ was referring to the grapheme. Makes sense.
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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by qwed117 » 30 Sep 2017 04:47

Creyeditor wrote:And here are my reviews on the languages that I missed
qwed117's Khwamhigor
Your romanization really makes the phonology look less exotic than it is, that's definitely a do. Also your intransitive verbs can incorporate verbs and nouns at once. Fascinating. Also the gloss 'GER=feel_good-feel-FUT' looks really tasty.
Well, you really didn't "miss" mine, I just didn't post my speedlang before your critiques. [:P]
I'm not too sure what you mean when you say "a do". I'd assume it's a positive statement, but from the context it doesn't seem so. [:S]
I think it's pretty interesting as well. Even though it's not something that I could imagine readily happening in a natural language. A more accurate translation of the last sentence is "The dog will feel much better excreting the pie". It's not quite as logical in English however, since the gerund is typically present in English, meanwhile in Khwamhigor, the gerund doesn't have the same tense relations. I guess another way of seeing it is as the verb cannot carry tense when incorporated. Writing this is the first time I've noticed this. Cf "The dog will feel better having passed the pie" to "The dog will feel better [when] passing the pie". Khwamhigor doesn't have this distinction.
Also there's some allophony I haven't mentioned: Khwamhigor is pronounced [k͡pa̤'m̊iʝɔʰr], compared to /k͡pʰam̊igor/. Grassman's Law functions roughly as in Ancient Greek, but instead of aspiration being completely lost, it moves towards the nucleus. Voiceless nasals and aspirated fricatives are treated equally to similar stops.
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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Creyeditor » 30 Sep 2017 12:43

Sorry, my bad. I thought of 'dos and don'ts' but maybe this doesn't actually exist in English out of this phrase. Also your extended explanation makes the verb incorporation really look like asymetric serial verb construction. Nice [:)]
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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by Nachtuil » 05 Oct 2017 01:20

Omzinesý wrote:@ Nachtuil
"Orkan" /[oɭqã]

"Englishy" syntax is very interesting. People just tend to avoid it. I like your noun cases. If natural semantics and context does not tells who does to whom, are passives used or are two clauses needed?
Definite articles follow their head. I rarely see that.
Omzinesý, commenting on every person's speedlang? You're a better man(or woman) than me! I know how long that takes! I think passives would be used at the very least since I have a way to produce passives with an auxiliary verb "tadi' but to be fair I have not really fleshed it out how infinitive verbs would work. I think different kind of valence changing operations would be based around auxiliary verbs for sure. Regarding the definite article, one thing that has stuck with me is the episode of conlangery on the noun phrase and how there are very few universals about internal constituent order.
Creyeditor wrote: Nachtuil's Orkan
Definitely extra points for combining phonation and labiovelars into a three way constrast in labiovelar stops, that's really neat. The rest of your phonology and phonotactics is also reasonably detailed. I did not fully get your explanation your syntax. The main question is: What is a topic and does every sentence have one? Also: what is allocutive agreement? In the end I really liked the style of your speedlang. It looks slightly South American.
Thank you. I appreciate the comments!

Orkan actually doesn't have topic marking so much, since I don't quite understand it and it was optional for the challenge. I am sure once I get it, it will probably feel obvious. The language would likely employ a number of voices or other valence changing operations if I fleshed it out more because the word order is fairly rigid. I will try to elaborate on syntax and hopefully clarify it without just copying and pasting what I wrote.

The language is more or less s v o but indirect objects come between subject and verb then after the object (only present with transitive verbs of course) come other noun phrases with extra information.
So in comparison:
1. English sentence :I gave bob the book in the morning.
2. Orkan sentence: I the book gave bob in the morning.

For case structure, subject and object are not marked but other noun phrases are. Genitive nouns are inside the noun phrase of the nouns they modify. The oblique case marks every other noun phrase, and does so as a suffix on the head noun but before the definite article.

The noun phrase is Numbers + Prepositions + Genitive Nouns + Headnoun.SecondaryNouns.Adjectives.CaseMarking + Definite Articles

English:
To jack's three blue dogs. (Definite article is dropped when possessed)

Orkan:
Three to jack's dogblues the. (Definite article still used with a possessed noun)

As mentioned, some dialects attach the definite article to the main noun so you'd get:
Three to jack's dogbluesthe.

When I think about it, number before preposition is quite odd, but there is no other place numbers go in a noun phrase and maybe the adjective form differs from the noun form so the meaning would be clear I imagine.

For allocutive agreement, (which I assume means morphology relating to gender?) the language is rather light in its gender system. Third person pronouns reflect gender, as does verb marking. The definite article distinguishes between animate and inanimate in the singular, but not plural form.

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Re: Speedlanging Challenge VII (22 - 25 September)

Post by shimobaatar » 05 Oct 2017 16:21

Omzinesý wrote:Does /æ/ always stay [æ] or is it reduced?
There's no mention of vowel reduction at all, from what I can see.
Omzinesý wrote:I would see it as a kind of neutral vowel outside the harmony.
That's correct.
shimobaatar wrote:There is vowel harmony between /i y e u o/ and /ɪ ʏ ɛ ʊ ɔ/, with /æ/ being neutral.
(Emphasis mine.)
Omzinesý wrote:How would you encode beneficiary ('for X')? Does it take Allative or some adposition or is it also a ditransitive?
I have no idea. I didn't think about anything that isn't included in the post I made.
Omzinesý wrote: Could the incorporated noun be classified as a kind of agreement?
Oh, maybe? I would have never thought of it like that.

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