New Weekly Indo European Collablang

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Cavaliers327
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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 08 Feb 2018 03:01

I decided to change my mind since we already have 8 votes in. So results are up now

Results
Spoiler:
11. A wins - Grassman’s Law is Applied

12. B wins - Aorist and Optative are eliminated

13. vo1dwalk3r's suggestion Cǝ

14.A wins - Aspirates fricativize

15. A - Locative Stays(for now)
New Questions coming up shortly

X. What are we going to do with clusters like θx ?

X2. What would those two fables (the King and the God & The Sheep and the Horse) look like now? Still looking like PIE ?

Here's a list of ideas for loanwords that we can borrow in now
Spoiler:

X borrow terms for metallurgy and ceramics from Hurrian, and maybe some horse-related words as well. Also have their paganism be influenced by Hurrian religion as per the Hittites.

X1:
-Sumerian loanwords for agriculture, geography, etc. (and they undergo the same sound changes since borrowing as native vocabulary)
These are from Wiktionary and this site, so if they're incorrect, don't blame me.
The latter terms after > are possible shift in meaning.
agar - field, meadow > untouched grassland (meaning is narrowed)
eden - plain, steppe, open country > steppe; land where one is free (conflated with the Eden of Abrahamic religions)
alum - a type of sheep > sheep (meaning is widened)
maš - goat; sacrificial animal > sacrificial animal (meaning is narrowed)
durah - wild goat, mountain goat > goat (meaning is widened)
ab - cow > cow (no change in meaning)
etc.


X1:
Akkadian ʃarrum (king) analyzed as accusative form of ʃarros (chief/leader)(semantic shift in borrowing)

and more.....

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » 08 Feb 2018 04:38

X. I say we keep θx, but we could do something with /ʃs. The easiest thing would be to assimilate both to ʃ (ʃʃ intervocalically). I also propose we do wl wr > ml mr, bl br, gl gr, or alternatively w > v. Ooh, here's another idea: glides fortite(?) to plosives after glides, so áwyes > áwdes, áwdʒes and déywos > déygos, déybos. Or we could do nasals if we did ml, mr, like áwnes/áwɲes and déymos/déyŋos (if we really wanted ɲ, we could merge and ).

We could do a rule for affricate + sonorant clusters (tʃl, tʃr, dʒn, dʒm, etc., plus possible with glides: tʃw, tʃy). I also suggest that, although we voted to keep the vowels conservative, there should be some changes so it's not exactly like PIE.

Finally, I think it would work best to have the earliest borrowings come after the Satem shift, since we don't have a good idea how the consonants were represented in PIE beforehand. Likewise, we could do them after laryngeal loss as well.

Of course, with everything I welcome new suggestions to be voted on!

X2. Still looking like PIE.
Spoiler:
Please tell me if you want the sound changes differently than I've written them here!

bʰ dʰ ǵʰ gʰ gʷʰ > pʰ tʰ ḱʰ kʰ kʷʰ
ḱʰ ḱ ǵ > tʃʰ tʃ dʒ
kʷʰ kʷ gʷ > kʰ k g
e > a / _h₂, h₂_
e > o / _h₃, h₃_
PH > Pʰ
SH > S̄
H > ∅
Pʰ…Pʰ > P…Pʰ
S̩ > Sǝ
pʰ tʰ tʃʰ kʰ > f θ ʃ x

ówis etʃwos-ke (The Sheep and the Horses)

áwey yosméy wlǝ̄nā́ né ést, só étʃwoms dertʃt. só grǝ̄úm wóʃom weʃed; só méʃmǝ fórom; só tʃémonmǝ ṓtʃu fered. ówis ékoyfyos wewked: “tʃémonmǝ spétʃyō étʃwoms-ke ádʒeti, tʃḗr moy axnutor”. étʃwōs tu wewkond: “tʃluθí, owey! tód spétʃyomes, nǝsméy axnutór tʃḗr: tʃémō, pótis, sē áwyes wlǝ̄nā́ xérmom wéstrom wept, áwifyos tu wlǝ̄nā́ né esti. tód tʃetʃluwṓs ówis adʒróm fuged.

rḗtʃs déywos-ke (The King and the God)

rḗtʃs est; só nǝputlós. rḗtʃs sū́num wlǝnto. tósyo ʃéwtormǝ prētʃst: "sū́nus moy dʒnǝ̄yetōd!" ʃéwtōr tom rḗdʒmǝ wewked: "yádʒeswo deywóm wérunom". úpo rḗʃs deywóm wérunom sesole nú deywóm yadʒeto. "tʃluθí moy, pter werune!" deywós wérunos diwés kmǝtá gāt. "kíd wēlsi?" "sū́num wēlmi." "tód estu", wéwked lewkós deywós wérunos. nu rétʃs pótnī sū́num dʒedʒone.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Frislander » 08 Feb 2018 17:23

vo1dwalk3r wrote:
08 Feb 2018 04:38
X. I say we keep θx, but we could do something with /ʃs. The easiest thing would be to assimilate both to ʃ (ʃʃ intervocalically).
Definitely assimilate those sibilants, but if we're applying Grassmans Law how can we get θx clusters? Surely the first consonant would deaspirate giving tx?
I also propose we do wl wr > ml mr, bl br, gl gr, or alternatively w > v.
I would say w > b in these environments.
Ooh, here's another idea: glides fortite(?) to plosives after glides, so áwyes > áwdes, áwdʒes and déywos > déygos, déybos.
Hm, Honestly I'd prefer the first glide to undergo fortition, e.g. áwyes > ábyes, ágyes and déywos > dédwos, dédʒwos, though admittedly that would fuck up the ablaut patterns for these roots somewhat.
We could do a rule for affricate + sonorant clusters (tʃl, tʃr, dʒn, dʒm, etc., plus possible with glides: tʃw, tʃy).
I would like to simplify these, like tʃy I think should definitely lose the separate glide component.
I also suggest that, although we voted to keep the vowels conservative, there should be some changes so it's not exactly like PIE.
OK, I have the idea of merging short *e *o into /a/ while keeping long *ē *ō in place.
Last edited by Frislander on 08 Feb 2018 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » 08 Feb 2018 17:35

Frislander wrote:
08 Feb 2018 17:23
Definitely assimilate those sibilants, but if we're applying Grassmans Law how can we get θx clusters? Surely the first consonant would deaspirate giving tx?
Oh right, yeah.
Frislander wrote:
08 Feb 2018 17:23
Hm, Honestly I'd prefer the first glide to undergo fortition, e.g. áwyes > ábyes, ágyes and déywos > dédwos, dédʒwos, though admittedly that would fuck up the ablaut patterns for these roots somewhat.
Ooh, I really like this. It would be kinda cool seeing how it would mess up the ablaut and how it might get regularized. Personally I prefer w > g and y > (including wl, wr), but we should vote on the options.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 08 Feb 2018 17:49

vo1dwalk3r wrote:
08 Feb 2018 17:35


Ooh, I really like this. It would be kinda cool seeing how it would mess up the ablaut and how it might get regularized. Personally I prefer w > g and y > (including wl, wr), but we should vote on the options.

Yeah I really like those sound changes and consonant cluster reductions. They work nicely. Both your ideas( Frislander and vo1dwalk3r) are really good. The vowel and ablaut pattern changes sound exciting.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 08 Feb 2018 17:55

For some voting, we can do it on google forms. The only downside is that you won't be able to see someone's customized suggestion for answer. I guess, however I could group similar answers together. Let me know

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by shimobaatar » 08 Feb 2018 17:57

I'd prefer to do all the voting in this thread, but that's just me.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » 08 Feb 2018 18:00

Yeah, I tend to agree, voting in the thread allows for more flexibility, I think. I'm open to other options though.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Vlürch » 08 Feb 2018 19:43

shimobaatar wrote:
08 Feb 2018 17:57
I'd prefer to do all the voting in this thread, but that's just me.
Same. I probably wouldn't even vote at all if it wasn't in this thread...

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 08 Feb 2018 20:35

Duly noted. Voting will be on the thread entirely. New questions coming soon....

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 09 Feb 2018 00:11

16. Glides fortite to plosives before glides....
a. Yes. with w > g and y > dʒ (including wl, wr) e.g áwyes > ágyes & déywos > dédʒwos
b. Yes. with w > b and y > d (including wl, wr) e.g áwyes > ábyes & déywos > dédwos
c. This does not happen

17. Do we simplify clusters like tʃy to just tʃ
a. Yes
b. No
c. Becomes t͡ɕ instead in the example of tʃy

18. Vowel Change
a. e and o merge into /a/
b. They don't merge
c. Propose your own

19.
a. tʃl > ʃl, etc.
b. tʃl > tʃǝl, etc.
c. No change.
d. Suggest others!

20.
a. sʃ > ʃ, etc.
b. sʃ > sǝʃ, etc.
c. Suggest others!


I've just added two new questions. Any who has voted , edit your previous posts with your answers to these questions



X3. We have to discuss clusters like t͡ʃs ? Would they become ʃ ? I'll compile all of these suggestions
Last edited by Cavaliers327 on 09 Feb 2018 21:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Vlürch » 09 Feb 2018 00:49

16. A
17. C

18.
accented <á> and <ā́> merge into /o/
accented <é> and <ḗ> merge into /i/; unaccented <e> merges into /a/; unaccented <ē> becomes /ai̯/
unaccented <u> merges into /o/

19.
/t͡ʃl/ > /t͡ɬ/ and /d͡ʒl/ > /d͡ɮ/ (sibilant affricate + lateral clusters become lateral affricates)
/t͡ʃr/ > /ʈ͡ʂ/ and /d͡ʒr/ > /ɖ͡ʐ/ (sibilant affricate + rhotic clusters become retroflex)
/t͡ʃn/ > /t͡ʃ◌̃/ and /d͡ʒn/ > /d͡ʒ◌̃/ (the /n/ is lost but causes the following vowel to be nasalised)
/t͡ʃm/ > /t͡ʃʷ◌̹̃/ and /d͡ʒm/ > /d͡ʒʷ◌̹̃/ (the /m/ is lost but causes the following vowel to be nasalised and rounded, as well as labialising the sibilant affricate)*
*for vowels that are already rounded, the /m/ metasthesises after the vowel instead of being lost, eg. /d͡ʒmo/ > /d͡ʒʷõm/

20. A

X3. /t͡ʃs/ > /t͡s/ and /t͡ʃʃ/ > /t͡ʃ/, etc. (sibilant affricate + sibilant clusters become a sibilant affricate in the place of articulation of the non-affricative sibilant)
Last edited by Vlürch on 09 Feb 2018 02:09, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » 09 Feb 2018 00:51

16. a, but other options:
a2, b2: Glides fortite after plosives
17. c, with ʃy > ɕ and >
18. Vlürch's suggestion, but with ō > au̯, ǝ̄ > ā and unaccented o > a.
19. a
20. a
Last edited by vo1dwalk3r on 09 Feb 2018 01:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 09 Feb 2018 01:01

Look at the last set of questions for the bold

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » 09 Feb 2018 01:18

Oh, right, okay. So this is this affricates + any sonorant, or only affricates + liquids/liquids and nasals? I'd prefer the latter, so we can preserve dʒw.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 09 Feb 2018 01:24

Yeah

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Frislander » 09 Feb 2018 12:48

16. b
17. a
18. a
19. b
20. a

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 09 Feb 2018 21:03

16. a
17. c
18. c - vo1dwalk3r's suggestion
19. a
20. a
Last edited by Cavaliers327 on 10 Feb 2018 18:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by idov » 09 Feb 2018 21:46

16. a (w > g and y > dʒ when preceding glides)
17. a
18. b
19. c /t͡ʃl/ > /t͡ɬ/ and /d͡ʒl/ > /d͡ɮ/, in all other cases a. (Affricates lose their "plosive part" when followed by liquids or nasals)
20. a/c sʃ > ʃː (Sequences of fricatives simplify to the last fricative but geminated)

X3. Vlürch's suggestion
The accusative of <emo> is <eminem>. :lat:

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Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » 10 Feb 2018 00:24

Voting ends at PST 800 AM on February 10

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