Lazin (Romlang)

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Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 29 Mar 2018 22:59

So I finally caught the Romlang bug. I don't have any clue where this will be located geographically. This is a pretty quick sketch and I just wanted to get it all down before I forget and while I have the time. I'm tentatively giving this language the name Lazin /ˈla.zɨn/ which derives, like Ladin, from "Latine". This probably won't be a permanent name, once I decide its location.

If there's some interest, I'll post what I have of the sound changes here, but for now I'll keep them to myself. The biggest note is that stress has shifted to the first syllable of the word. This has caused the unstressed vowels to reduce and many reduced vowels to disappear.

Phonology

Consonants
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d c g>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ ɣ/ <f v s z sc~ch j gh>
/m n ɲ/ <m n nn>
/l ʎ/ <l ll>
/r/ <r>
/kf gv/ <qu gu>

Vowels
There are 6 monophthongs which have two difference qualities depending on whether they are stressed or unstressed:
<i> /i~ɨ/
<e> /e~ə/
<ä> /ɛ~æ/
<u> /u~ʌ/
<o> /o~ɔ/
<a> /a~ɑ/

There are also 3 diphthongs:
<í> /ai~i/
<é> /ei~e/
<ú> /au~u/

Allophony
Obstruents devoice word finally.
Word final /ər ən əl/ surface as /r̩ n̩ l̩/ unless preceded by a like consonant.
/r/ surfaces as /ɾ/ within words (CrV, VrC, VrC).
/k g/ surface as /x ɣ/ in word final unstressed syllables.


Nouns
Nouns are either masculine or feminine. Gender is irregularly marked. In general, feminine nouns end in a consonant while masculine nouns will end in a vowel, usually -u. Nouns of both genders descended from the Latin third declension may end in -i or with a palatalized coronal consonant (i.e. chänn “dog”).

Nouns mark the plural with the ending -s. When following sibilants, the endings surfaces as -es.

Articles

Definite Article
The definite article is marked for gender, number, and case
Masculine Singular/Plural
Sub. le/les
Obl. lu/lus

Feminine Singular/Plural
Sub. lä/läs
Obl. lä/läs

Indefinite Article
The indefinite article does not mark for case.
Masculine/Feminine
únu/ún

Personal Pronouns
Pronouns are marked for first, second and third person; singular and plural; subject and oblique; and gender (in the third person).

First Person (S/P)
Sub. e/nus
Obl. mi/nus

Second Person (S/P)
Sub. tú/vus
Obl. ti/vus

Third Person
Masculine Singular/Plural
Sub. il/ils
Obl. ilu/ilus

Feminine Singular/Plural
Sub. el/els
Obl. elä/eläs

Verbs
The four Latin verb conjugations have been severely reduced. The first, second, and third conjugations all merged into one which ends in <-er> the fourth conjugation survives and ends in <-ir>. These are now referred to as the first and second conjugations, respectively.

Personal Endings, First Conjugation
Present Singular/Plural
1 --/-ens
2 -es/-es
3 --/-en

Imperfect Singular/Plural
1 -ev/-vens
2 -ves/-ves
3 -ev/-ven

Future Singular/Plural
1 -ré/-rens
2 -räs/-res
3 -rät/-ren

Conditional Singular/Plural
1 -sä/-säns
2 -säs/-säs
3 -sä/-sän

Participles
Present: -end
Past: -ed

Personal Endings, Second Conjugation
Present Singular/Plural
1 --/-ins
2 -is/-is
3 --/-in

Imperfect Singular/Plural
1 -iv/-ivens
2 -ives/-ives
3 -iv/-iven

Future Singular/Plural
1 -iré/-irens
2 -iräs/-ires
3 -irät/-iren

Conditional Singular/Plural
1 -isä/-isäns
2 -isäs/-isäs
3 -isä/-isän

Participles
Present: -end
Past: -id

Imperative
The Imperative is formed by using the normal present indicative endings for the first and second person plural and by fronting the verb. The second person singular fronts the verb but takes no ending.
Ex: Vazins! “Let’s go!”
Manj tú chin! “Eat your dinner!”

Passive
The passive is formed by using a conjugated form of eser “to be” plus the past participle.
Ex: Le pann er manjed. “The bread was being eaten/”

Simple Past
The simple past is formed by using either äver “to have” or eser “to be” plus the past participle. Eser is used for verbs of motion as well as those which indicate states of being such as eser and ster.
Ex: L’om ä vizid lä väch.

Numbers
And for Janko…
1 ún
2 du
3 tris
4 quäter
5 cínc
6 ses
7 set
8 ot
9 nov
10 dech
Last edited by spanick on 26 Apr 2018 14:16, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by Creyeditor » 30 Mar 2018 13:21

Nice introduction. The examples sentences give me a slight scandinavian vibe (with romance lexemes of course), especially the following

Le pann er manjed.
???
“The bread was being eaten.”

L’om ä vizid lä väch.
???
???

Sorry to bother you, but could you give glosses and IPA for them? Also does the second sentence mean "The man saw the cow."?
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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by shimobaatar » 30 Mar 2018 14:38

spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
So I finally caught the Romlang bug. I don't have any clue where this will be located geographically. This is a pretty quick sketch and I just wanted to get it all down before I forget and while I have the time. I'm tentatively giving this language the name Lazin /ˈla.zɨn/ which derives, like Ladin, from "Latine". This probably won't be a permanent name, once I decide its location.
[:D]

Keep us posted on what you decide regarding the location.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
If there's some interest, I'll post what I have of the sound changes here, but for now I'll keep them to myself. The biggest note is that stress has shifted to the first syllable of the word. This has caused the unstressed vowels to reduce and many reduced vowels to disappear.
I think they'd be interesting to see, if you wouldn't mind sharing.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d c g>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ/ <f v s z sc~ch j c gh>
So <c g> don't have different pronunciations before front vowels and back vowels? Is the difference between <sc> and <ch> just etymological?
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
There are also 3 diphthongs:
<í> /ai/
<é> /ei/
<ú> /au/
Are the diphthongs pronounced the same regardless of whether or not they are stressed?
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
Obstruents devoice word finally.
Word final /ər ən əl/ surface as /r̩ n̩ l̩/ unless preceded by a like consonant.
/r/ surfaces as /ɾ/ within words (CrV, VrC, VrC).
/k/ surfaces as /x/ before /t/.
/k g/ surface as /x ɣ/ in word final unstressed syllables.
Are the velar fricatives phonemic? Is word-final obstruent devoicing reflected orthographically? Looking below, it would seem like that isn't the case.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
In general, feminine nouns end in a consonant while [?] will end in a vowel, usually -u.
(Emphasis and [?] mine).

This is just a minor nit-picky thing, but there appears to be something missing here.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
Nouns mark the plural with the ending -s. When following sibilants, the endings surfaces as -es.
So "dogs" would be chänns?
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
Articles

[…]

Personal Pronouns
Are articles and pronouns considered "stressed" or "unstressed", in regards to the pronunciation of vowels? In any case, I quite like the sounds of words like únu/ún and .
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
Verbs
Might I ask to see a fully conjugated verb or two, if you wouldn't mind?

Also, no subjunctive? I'm a fan! [:P]
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
Simple Past
The simple past is formed by using either äver “to have” or eser “to be” plus the past participle. Eser is used for verbs of motion as well as those which indicate states of being such as eser and ster.
Ex: L’om ä vizid lä väch.
Is there anything differentiating the imperfect and the simple past, apart from what one would expect from a Romance language? What does the example sentence mean, if I might ask?

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 30 Mar 2018 16:20

Creyeditor wrote:
30 Mar 2018 13:21
Nice introduction. The examples sentences give me a slight scandinavian vibe (with romance lexemes of course), especially the following

Le pann er manjed.
???
“The bread was being eaten.”

L’om ä vizid lä väch.
???
???

Sorry to bother you, but could you give glosses and IPA for them? Also does the second sentence mean "The man saw the cow."?
It's no problem.

Le pann er manjed.
/lə ˈpaɲ‿ər ˈmaɲʒ.ət/
DEF.MS.SUB bread be.IMPF.3S eat-PTPC
"The bread was being eaten."

L’om ä vizid lä väch.
/lom‿æ ˈvi.zɨt læ ˈvɛʃ/
DEF.MS.SUB-man have.3S see-PTPC DEF.FS.OBL cow
"The man saw the cow." (I'm full of exhilarating examples like these ;) )

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 30 Mar 2018 16:37

shimobaatar wrote:
30 Mar 2018 14:38
Keep us posted on what you decide regarding the location.
Will do
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
If there's some interest, I'll post what I have of the sound changes here, but for now I'll keep them to myself. The biggest note is that stress has shifted to the first syllable of the word. This has caused the unstressed vowels to reduce and many reduced vowels to disappear.
I think they'd be interesting to see, if you wouldn't mind sharing.
No problem. I'll post them in a separate post after this.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d c g>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ/ <f v s z sc~ch j c gh>
So <c g> don't have different pronunciations before front vowels and back vowels? Is the difference between <sc> and <ch> just etymological?
That's right. <sc> comes from an unconditional shift of /sk/ > /ʃ/ while <ch> comes from the palatalization of <c> before front vowels followed by de-effricatization /k/ > */tʃ/ > /ʃ/.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
There are also 3 diphthongs:
<í> /ai/
<é> /ei/
<ú> /au/
Are the diphthongs pronounced the same regardless of whether or not they are stressed?
Darn! Yes, unstressed they remain monopthongs /i e u/.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
Obstruents devoice word finally.
Word final /ər ən əl/ surface as /r̩ n̩ l̩/ unless preceded by a like consonant.
/r/ surfaces as /ɾ/ within words (CrV, VrC, VrC).
/k/ surfaces as /x/ before /t/.
/k g/ surface as /x ɣ/ in word final unstressed syllables.
Are the velar fricatives phonemic? Is word-final obstruent devoicing reflected orthographically? Looking below, it would seem like that isn't the case.
Voiced velar fricatives are but voiceless velar fricatives are not. No, obstruent devoicing is not indicated orthographically.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
In general, feminine nouns end in a consonant while [?] will end in a vowel, usually -u.
(Emphasis and [?] mine).

This is just a minor nit-picky thing, but there appears to be something missing here.
*masculine nouns...I'll fix that
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
Nouns mark the plural with the ending -s. When following sibilants, the endings surfaces as -es.
So "dogs" would be chänns?
In this case, "dogs" would actually be <chäns>. I was far too basic in my description of plurals; irregularities do exist.
Are articles and pronouns considered "stressed" or "unstressed", in regards to the pronunciation of vowels? In any case, I quite like the sounds of words like únu/ún and .
When I derived them, I kept treated them as "stressed" but as I transcribe more sentences, I find that I'm treating them as unstressed. For now, I guess is still kinda up in the air.
spanick wrote:
29 Mar 2018 22:59
Verbs
Might I ask to see a fully conjugated verb or two, if you wouldn't mind?

No problem. I'll add those to the next post.
Is there anything differentiating the imperfect and the simple past, apart from what one would expect from a Romance language? What does the example sentence mean, if I might ask?
The simple past is more perfective/gnomic...I believe this is typical of other Romance languages.

The sentence is "The man saw the cow."

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 30 Mar 2018 17:00

Here are the sound changes. I would consider this the bulk of the important changes, although as things progress I may fine tune this and add more detailed changes.
Spoiler:
ai > εː
au > ɔː
Vns > Vːs
iː > i
i > ɪ
eː > e
e > ε
uː > u
u > ʊ
oː > o
o > ɔ
aː > a
a > æ
h > Ø
b, d, g > v, ð, ɣ /V_V
p, t, k > b, d, g / V_V
mn > nː
pt > tː
kt > xt
ks > sː
sk > ʃ
Cː > C
m > Ø /_#
Stress shifts to first syllable.
+stress -stress
i ai i
ɪ i ɨ
e i ə
εː ei ɛ
ε e æ
æ ɛ ə
u au u
ʊ u ʌ
o u ə
ɔː o ɔ
ɔ o ɑ
a a ə
ə > Ø / (ə$)_($ə)
k, g > ʧ, ʤ / _V[+front]
t, d > ʦ, ʣ/ _V[+hi]
ʧ, ʦ, ʤ, ʣ > ʃ, s, ʒ, z
kw > k / _i, e
kw > kf _a
j > ʒ
n > ɲ / _ i, ɨ
ə > Ø / #_
ε[-stress] > æ
Full conjugation of the first conjugation verb <ämer> "to love".
Spoiler:
Infinitive: ämer
Present Participle: ämenz
Past participle: ämed

Present S/P
äm/ämens
ämes/ämes
äm/ämen

Imperfect S/P
ämev/ämvens
ämves/ämves
ämev/ämven

Future S/P
ämré/ämrens
ämräs/ämres
ämrät/ämren

Conditional S/P
ämsä/ämsäns
ämsäs/ämsäs
ämsä/ämsän

Imperative:
1P ämens
2S äm
2P ämen
Full conjugation of the second conjugation verb <vizir> "to see". EDIT: now that I see it all written out, I might make some changes to this conjugation...and updated
Spoiler:
Infinitive: vizir
Present Participle: vizinz
Past participle: vizid

Present S/P
vid/vizins
vizis/vizis
vid/vizin

Imperfect S/P
viziv/vizivens
vizives/vizives
viziv/viziven

Future S/P
viziré/vizirens
viziräs/vizires
vizirät/viziren

Conditional S/P
vizisä/vizisäns
vizisäs/vizisäs
vizisä/vizisän

Imperative:
1P vizins
2S vid
2P vizin

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 02 Apr 2018 22:30

Conjugation of eser "to be"
Infinitive: eser
Present Participle: sed
Past Participle: esenz

Present (S/P)
1 sun/suns
2 es/es
3 e/sund

Imperfect (S/P)
1 er/erans
2 eras/eras
3 er/eran

Future
1 esré/esrens
2 esräs/esres
3 esrät/esren

Conditional
1 esä/esäns
2 esäs/esäs
3 esä/esän

Conjugation of äver "to have"
Infinitive: äver
Present Participle: ävend
Past Participle: ävid

Present (S/P)
1 é/ävens
2 äs/äves
3 ät/även

Imperfect (S/P)
1 ävev/ävans
2 äves/ävas
3 ävev/ävan

Future
1 ävré/ävrens
2 ävräs/ävres
3 ävrät/ävren

Conditional
1 ävsä/ävsäns
2 äv/ävsäs
3 ävsä/ävsän
Last edited by spanick on 26 Apr 2018 14:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 02 Apr 2018 23:20

I think I've finally made a decision for a location of this language. It will be centered around the old Roman city of Teurnia in the Austrian Bundesland of Carinthia. In real life, Teurnia is just a ruin but in world, it is the Capital of the Bundesland in lieu of Klagenfurt.

Being named for the city of Túrnn /taʊɾɲ/ in Carins /ˈka.ɾɨns/, the language is named Lingú Túrnnan /ˈliŋ.gu ˈtaʊɾ.ɲɑn/ or simply Túrnnu /ˈtaʊɾ.ɲʌ/. The official Anglicization is Turnian. Turnian is spoken by some 350,000 speakers as a native language, making it the majority spoken language in the region. However, German is the official language of the region with Turnian having minority language status. Túrnn is also the home to the See of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Túrnn.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 21 Apr 2018 10:29

Adjectives
Adjectives are marked for gender and number:

Masc/Fem
S -u/—
P -us/-es

The determinatives quist “this” and quil “that” take these adjectival endings.

Ex:
Quistu chätu ävit in quil chäz. “This cat lives in that house.”

Possessives
Possessives are formed in one of two ways:
When using pronouns, simply place the oblique pronoun before the noun: mi chänn “my dog”
Otherwise, the noun is followed by <de> plus the possessor: Lä chäz de Marcu “Mark’s house”

Passive Agent
One point I forgot to add earlier was how to indicate the agent of a passive verb. This is formed by the preposition <per> followed by the agent: Le surs e manjed per lu chätu. “The mouse is eaten by the cat”

Note that <per> requires the use of the oblique hence <lu chätu> rather than <le chätu>.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by IEPH » 23 Apr 2018 03:59

Loving this conlang.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 23 Apr 2018 20:47

IEPH wrote:
23 Apr 2018 03:59
Loving this conlang.
Thanks!

——————

I wanted to post a few short texts to illustrate the aesthetic. The first text is the text posted by Salmoneus in his thread on La Ziunga. So Sal, I hope you’re ok with me using this text. If not, lemme know and I’ll take it down. The second text is the Our Father. The next two are “One language is never enough” and “A language is a dialect with an army and a navy.”

Par l’ämar del Deu ä per lus poblu cristienus ä nus sälvesie comúnn a pärtir de quistu zi coma le Deu dä mi lä säpiens ä lä podens, ê prudäghré quistu frader de mi, Chärlu, per l’äsistens ä in onn fächend, coma oma div per lu drictu ilu frader sustiner perqui il fächiré de medimu per mi. Ä cu Luther ê nun fächiré únu äcordu qui, per mi volundá, fächiré lu malu a quistu frader de mi, Chärlu.

Päder de nus qu’e in lu chélu,
Sanctifiger ti num;
Vennir ti rinnu,
Fächir ti volundá,

In lä ter coma in lu chélu.
Nus pann cosizienu dä nus ozi
ä pirden nus de nus dividus
coma nus ävens pirdened nus dividers
ä nun min nus in lä tentesie
mäj líver nus del malu.

Ún lingú n’e jämäj ävundant.

Ún lingú e ún dialéct cu ún ärmed ä ún märín.

A few notes:
Spoiler:
(1) I’ve introduced the character <ê> to represent the first person singular pronoun. It’s not pronounced any differently than before. The circumflex is merely an orthographic convention to distinguish it from <e>, the third person singular of <eser>.

(2) Similarly, I’ve changed the third person singular form of <äver> to <hä> with the <h> being silent and used only to distinguish it from the conjunction <ä> “and”.

(3) I caved in and added a subjunctive. I developed it from the imperfect subjunctive of Latin because the present subjunctive yielded forms identical to the present indicative. You’ll notice that in the plural the subjunctive is identical to the future, that wasn’t planned but I like that overlap:
First Conjugation
Subjunctive
1 -er/-rens
2 -res/-res
3 -er/-ren

Second Conjungation
Subjunctive
1 -ir/-irens
2 -ires/-ires
3 -ir/-iren


(4) <dialéct> is a learned borrowing. The native term would come out <zielect>
Last edited by spanick on 26 Apr 2018 14:24, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by Lambuzhao » 23 Apr 2018 21:09

spanick wrote:
23 Apr 2018 20:47
The first text is the text created(?) by Salmoneus in his thread on La Ziunga. So Sal, I hope you’re ok with me using this text. If not, lemme know and I’ll take it down.
He didn't create the text. It's from the Oaths of Strasbourg, which contains one of the oldest examples of a definitively 'Romance' language (i.e. Old French) in writing, which see:
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/French ... sbourg.htm

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 23 Apr 2018 21:14

Gotcha. Something seemed awfully specific about it haha. Well, regardless...I translated from his English translation in his thread rather than from this original in the link.

Edit: I’ve added the only phrase which seemed to be missing “for the Christian people” to my translation.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by IEPH » 25 Apr 2018 04:02

Can you do Article 1 of the UDHR and possibly the phrase "My hovercraft is full of eels."

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 25 Apr 2018 17:46

Sure,

Tudus lus seds úmenus nachins líverus ä éguellus in dínnid ä dritus. Ils sund duned cú intletu ä cunchiensi diven äjer l’únu versu l’ältru in únu spíridu de fradernnid.

Mi hovercraft e plen de läs äguils.
Last edited by spanick on 26 Apr 2018 14:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by Ælfwine » 25 Apr 2018 22:42

I'm interested in seeing the historical phonology.
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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 25 Apr 2018 23:21

Ælfwine wrote:
25 Apr 2018 22:42
I'm interested in seeing the historical phonology.
The sound changes are in a spoiler above (I think it’s my third post in this thread in response to Shimo).

For the most part, it’s accurate but it some of the rules are out of order and I’ve had to add a few more since I started doing more translations. The most important change is that the palatalization rules should come before the changes to the vowels due to stress but after the first set of changes to the vowels.

I’m working on updating it now, once I have it updated I’ll had it here.

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Re: Lazin (Romlang)

Post by spanick » 26 Apr 2018 14:10

Here’s the updated sound changes. This should be complete but there’s always a chance I forgot about some ad hoc rule I came up with. It’s also worth mentioning that I take for granted some things like the loss of -s in the nominative singular forms.
Spoiler:
ai > εː
au > ɔː
Vns > Vːs
iː > i
i > ɪ
eː > e
e > ε
uː > u
u > ʊ
oː > o
o > ɔ
aː > a
a > æ
h > Ø
b, d, g > v, ð, ɣ /V_V
ð > Ø _#
ð > z
p, t, k, s> b, d, g, z / V_V
k, g > ʧ, ʤ / _V[+front]
t, d > ʦ, ʣ/ (V/n)_V[+hi]
ʧ, ʦ, ʤ, ʣ > ʃ, s, ʒ, z
kw > kf /# _i, e, a
kw > k/_u, o
kw > gw / V_
j > ʒ
gn > ɲ
n > ɲ / _ i, ɨ
mn > nː
nː > ɲ
pt > tː
kt > tː
ks > sː
sk > ʃ
Cː > C
m > Ø /_#
t > Ø /V_#
Vd# > Vː#
nt > nd /_V
Stress shifts to first syllable.
+stress -stress
i ai i
ɪ i ɨ
e i ə
εː ei ɛ
ε e æ
æ ɛ ə
u au u
ʊ u ʌ
o u ə
ɔː o ɔ
ɔ o ɑ
a a ə
ə > Ø / _($ə)
ə > Ø / #_
ε[-stress] > æ

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