Esperantidos - pros and contras?

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Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Omzinesý » 30 Jun 2018 21:55

There are plenty of new version of Esperanto, called Esperantidos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperantido . They have changed some problems of Esperanto.

What do you find problematic in Esperanto and have the new versions succeeded to solve the problem?


------------------------------------
My ideas:

1. Esperanto is usually criticized for using diacritics for sibilants and affricates. I think the problem is not the letters but that the lang has too many sibilants and affricates altogether. I would make my Esperantido have only one sibilant /s/ <s> and one affricate /t͡s/ <c>. Ido actually makes the system more messy than Esperanto by using digraphs and letters like <x>.

2. Another characteristic for which Esperanto is criticized is that feminine words are derived from masculine words.
patr-o 'father'
patr-in-o 'mother'

Basically it is logical to derive both from the same root, though not very natural from SAE perspective. My idea is that both are derived from a gernder-neutral form only when specification is necessary.

parent-o 'parent'
parent-in-o 'mather'
parent-ur-o 'father'

3. As a Finnish speaker, I don't quite understand why Esperanto has to have specific pronouns for 'he' and 'she'. Maybe from the SAE perspective, it's though justified.

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Salmoneus » 30 Jun 2018 23:36

The big problem with esperanto is that almost nobody speaks it, which severely limits its utility as a language of international communication.

Esperantidos have so far not succesfully addressed this problem; quite the contrary.

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Aszev » 01 Jul 2018 09:10

This is relevant to your points 2 and 3.
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by lsd » 01 Jul 2018 13:43

Salmoneus wrote:
30 Jun 2018 23:36
The big problem with esperanto is that almost nobody speaks it, which severely limits its utility as a language of international communication.
Esperantidos have so far not succesfully addressed this problem; quite the contrary.
As a conlang, everyone here would like his creation to be spoken as one thousandth of what Esperanto is ...
For a language of international communication, the problem is not linguistics but politics...
Also you can play without any inconvenience with esperantidos, as long as you do not seek to increase its international focus... or a similar number of speakers ...

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Omzinesý » 01 Jul 2018 13:57

lsd wrote:
01 Jul 2018 13:43
Salmoneus wrote:
30 Jun 2018 23:36
The big problem with esperanto is that almost nobody speaks it, which severely limits its utility as a language of international communication.
Esperantidos have so far not succesfully addressed this problem; quite the contrary.
As a conlang, everyone here would like his creation to be spoken as one thousandth of what Esperanto is ...
For a language of international communication, the problem is not linguistics but politics...
Also you can play without any inconvenience with esperantidos, as long as you do not seek to increase its international focus... or a similar number of speakers ...
Yes, my aim was to discuss them as conlangs. All of us know that they will not be more.

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Omzinesý » 01 Jul 2018 13:58

Aszev wrote:
01 Jul 2018 09:10
This is relevant to your points 2 and 3.
I read it. The points are very similar to mine.
We can also comment them if we want.

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Salmoneus » 01 Jul 2018 17:25

Omzinesý wrote:
01 Jul 2018 13:57
lsd wrote:
01 Jul 2018 13:43
Salmoneus wrote:
30 Jun 2018 23:36
The big problem with esperanto is that almost nobody speaks it, which severely limits its utility as a language of international communication.
Esperantidos have so far not succesfully addressed this problem; quite the contrary.
As a conlang, everyone here would like his creation to be spoken as one thousandth of what Esperanto is ...
For a language of international communication, the problem is not linguistics but politics...
Also you can play without any inconvenience with esperantidos, as long as you do not seek to increase its international focus... or a similar number of speakers ...
Yes, my aim was to discuss them as conlangs. All of us know that they will not be more.
Treating Esperanto purely in artistic terms, rather than as an auxlang: I'm not sure it's really deserving of comment, other than to recognise the plodding commitment of its developers in creating something so extensive. Aesthetically, I find Esperanto ugly and lacking in confidence: it feels neither one thing nor another phonologically, and lexically it is too transparently derived from European languages to have any interest. Grammatically there is very little of interest, and the 'interesting' bits are superficial scars of unnatural and boring regularity (but not thoroughgoing enough to develop a brutalist intrigue of its own, as Lojban does). If it were a painting, it would be a paint-by-numbers biscuit-tin.

Of the great historical auxlangs, Volapuk is far more interesting in artistic terms, with a stronger and weirder aesthetic of its own.

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by lsd » 02 Jul 2018 20:29

I regret the abandonment of the building a priori for the switch to a Romance language ...
the false good idea of tackling the European roots on a 17th century language operation a little at random seems tantalizing to attract the average learne, but victim of its success the rigid olygosynthetic project gives way to a naturalism as sad as it is a natural language, a little strange though...
To treat Esperanto in purely artistic terms is the lack that the Esperantists have not yet filled ...
To add a language so developed to a Hollywood project of a major of the entertainement is the thing that is missing to take the step towards the general public eager for this kind of gadget ... it's a fact in a meaningless world, the more the object is without use, but cool, the more likely it is to be attractive ...

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Omzinesý » 11 Jul 2018 17:10

lsd wrote:
02 Jul 2018 20:29
I regret the abandonment of the building a priori for the switch to a Romance language ...
the false good idea of tackling the European roots on a 17th century language operation a little at random seems tantalizing to attract the average learne, but victim of its success the rigid olygosynthetic project gives way to a naturalism as sad as it is a natural language, a little strange though...
I dont quite understand what you mean.


Of course, Esperanto will never been an important language. I just mean it can still be discussed on the board in the linguistic perspective, how should it be changed if it was an international auxlang.


Esperanto is simple to learn, as people have said. It's not more logical than any natlang, but I think no logic lang could even theoretically be used as a natlang.

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Pabappa » 11 Jul 2018 19:11

I've favored Ido since the first time I heard about it, but I wasnt aware until now that there were others. Esperanto II looks good but probably not that different from Ido. All others listed on that page are, in my opinion, independent creations inspired by Esperanto rather than derivatives or reforms of Esperanto and while they may be useful in their own right, they don't serve the same purpose Esperanto was intended for.
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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Reyzadren » 11 Jul 2018 23:56

As an "auxlang", I find Esperanto difficult and imo it still has many complicated/annoying/useless/unnecessary grammar (Perhaps it fixes stuff from an SAE perspective, but that's not my specialty). Certainly, its derivatives such as Ido tried to eliminate some of its problems, but these auxlangs in general are still too difficult for me and hence not worth my time, especially when my own conlang, which is not an auxlang, is far easier.

That, and most auxlangs don't even have much stuff written in them. Finding Esperanto material is easy, but even with Ido, it may as well get into the obscure territory.
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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Zé do Rock » 12 Jul 2018 20:15

English

Hi, i'm new here. I'll write my messages in two blocks, the first one in the 4
languages i know more or less well - except english - going gradually through spelling reforms, or alternately in these languages and english evolving to europano, a language i created - i'm thinking of changing the name of it, i thought of europidgin but too many people dont know what "pidgin" means (i guess many people know it in the anglo world, but far less in other countries). The second block is written in english with reformed spelling, first in the House Stile, which was approved by the members of TESS, The English Spelling Society. At the beginning the changes will be hardly noticeable - in this first message i'm just replacing or dropping A's, in the next message also B's, etc. I hope this is OK here, at least i haven't seen anything in the guidelines saying its not...

Reformado

Oi, eu sou novo aqui. Ich werd meine messages in zwei blocks schreiben, im ersten in den 4 sprachen die ich einigermaszen kann - ausser englisch - die aber allmählich eine reformierte orthografie bekommen, oder in diesen sprachen - auch english - die dann zum europano konvergieren, eine sprache die ich kreiert hab. Jai pensé a changer le nom de la langue - par example a "europidgin", mais le problème est: mucha gente en el mundo anglófono sabe lo que quiere decir 'pidgin', pero no en el resto del mundo. O segundo bloco vai ser escrito em inglês com ortografia reformada, no comesso em House Stile, que foi votado pela maioria dos membros da TESS, The English Spelling Society. An anfang wird man es kaum merken - in diesem posting ersetz ich A's oder nehm ich sie weg, in näxten auch B's, usw - aber später wird es ziemlich deutlich. Jespère que sa soit OK ici, au moins jai rien vu dans les instructions que le contradit...

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Zé do Rock » 12 Jul 2018 20:17

Europan

Una págin interesante, la wiki sobre esperantidos. Se eu tivesse que escolher a língua franca do mundo, e ela tivesse que ser esperanto ou um esperantido, eu probabelmente escolheria Ido. Das problem war vermutlich, dass sowohl Ido wie auch das reformierte esperanto von Zamenhof gleich zuviel reformiert haben. Sils avaient changé ce qui était absolument nécessaire, peut-être une de ces 2 reformes auraient été approuvés par la majorité des esperantistes, surtout si elles était realisés gradualement, en phases: 1) eliminación de los accentos, 2) un sufijo también para el masculino, 3) eliminación del acusativo, 4) eliminación de la concordancia del adjetivo con el sustantivo. E talvez a eliminassao de combinassoes de consoantes dificeis para os falantes de muitas línguas, como KZ (uma surda, uma sonora...), KV, ou a palavra 'scii', comessando com /sts/ - statt 'Mi ne scias chi tio lingvon', könnte es 'Mi ne savas chi tio lingo' heissen.

La substitution de 'kaj' par 'e' et de 'sed' par 'ma' dans Ido était a mon avis une décision sage, 'kaj' et 'sed' étaient comprensables pour les humanistes de la belle epoque, et beaucoup des gens avaient encore une notion du latin, mais aujourdhui... La sustitución de las palabras con mal- me agrada, yo prefiero 'granda-mikra' a 'granda-malgranda', pero no era realmente necesario. Claro, tem a vantagem que economiza tempo e espasso, e pra europeu (principalmente ocidental) é em geral evidente, mas pros falantes de línguas nao-européias as formas com 'mal-' tem a grande vantagem de nao se ter que aprender tanto vocabulário.

A propósito, in europano para padre y madre se dice 'mama' y 'papo'...


English House Stile

An interesting page, this wiki about esperantidos. If i had to chose a lingua franca for the world and it had to be esperanto or an esperantido, i'd probbably would have chosen Ido. The problem was that as well Ido as the esperanto reformed by Zamenhof reformed too much. If they had changed only what was really necessary, they might have been approved by the majority of esperantists, especially if the changes were introduced gradually, in phases: 1) elimination of diacritics, 2) suffix also for masculine, 3) elimination of accusative, 4) elimination of concordance of adjectives and nouns. And maybe the elimination of consonant clusters that are rather difficult for the speakers of quite a few languages, as KZ (one voiceless, one voiced...), KV, or the word 'scii' for 'to know', starting with /sts/ - insted of 'Mi ne scias chi tiu lingvon', it could be 'Mi ne savas chi tiu lingo'.

Replacing 'e' and 'ma' for 'kaj' and 'sed' in ido was in my opinion a wise decision, since 'kaj' and 'sed' might have been understandable by humanists, especially a century ago, but not nowadays by the laymen... And i liked that Ido replaced the words with mal-, making of granda-malgranda 'granda-mikra', but it wasnt really necessary. Of course it has the advantage of saving space and time, and for europeans, especially for western europeans, the new words are usually evident, but for the speakers of non european languages the forms with 'mal-' have the advantage of saving vocabulary, ie the numbers of words you have to lern is reduced.

By the way, in my europano, for father and mother you say 'papo' and 'mama'...

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by lsd » 12 Jul 2018 21:02

Omzinesý wrote:
11 Jul 2018 17:10
lsd wrote:
02 Jul 2018 20:29
...

I dont quite understand what you mean.
sorry for my broken english, I wrote as I speak a little at random and without punctuation...
I regret the initial project of an a priori langage switched into a romance langage :
the use of european roots, at random, to dress a skeleton of philosophic language seemed an idea attracive for learners.
Its success changed a begining of an ambitious regeneration of a XVIIth conlang, into a strange natlang.
It didn't reach the avantages of a logical a priori auxlang and missed the real linguistic basis of an a posteriori conlang

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Zé do Rock » 12 Jul 2018 23:59

Salmoneus wrote:
30 Jun 2018 23:36
The big problem with esperanto is that almost nobody speaks it, which severely limits its utility as a language of international communication.

Esperantidos have so far not succesfully addressed this problem; quite the contrary.
Reformado

Esperanto tem os seus defeitos, mas eu acho que o que você diz é meio estranho. Klar, wenn man es mit english oder chinesish vergleicht, sprechen sehr wenige leute esperanto. Mais compare la langue avec les autres conlangs, auxlangs ou quoi que soit que tu les appeles: dependiendo de lo que definas hablar una lengua, podría se decir que hay millones o centenas de miles de hablantes de esperanto. Ido, a língua número dois, só tem uma frassao disso, e as outras sao uma quantité negligeable... ich nehm mal an dass mehr als 99% der kunstsprachen, wie meine eigene, haben einen einzigen sprecher, ihren schöpfer... et après tout, esperanto a plus des articles en wikipedia que des langues nacionales comme danois ou bulgare, et sa nest pas mal pour une auxlang.

PS: qué significa SAE?


English House Stile

Esperanto has quite a few flaws, but i think thats a funny thing to say. Sure, comparing esperanto with english or chinese, very few people speak esperanto. But compare it with other conlangs, auxlangs or whatever you name it: depending on what you define as speaking a language, one could say thare are millions or hundreds of thousands of esperanto speakers. Ido, the number two, has much much fewer speakers, and the others are a quantité negligeable... i guess more than 99% of auxlangs, like my own, have a single speaker, their creators... And after all, esperanto has more wikipedia articles than national languages like danish or bulgarian, which is not bad for an auxlang.

PS. What does SAE mean?

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Salmoneus » 13 Jul 2018 00:13

Zé do Rock wrote:
12 Jul 2018 23:59
Salmoneus wrote:
30 Jun 2018 23:36
The big problem with esperanto is that almost nobody speaks it, which severely limits its utility as a language of international communication.

Esperantidos have so far not succesfully addressed this problem; quite the contrary.
Esperanto has quite a few flaws, but i think thats a funny thing to say. Sure, comparing esperanto with english or chinese, very few people speak esperanto. But compare it with other conlangs, auxlangs or whatever you name it
And if Zamenhof and the international congress had sat down with the ambition "let's make a conlang that's probably spoken by more people than any other conlang", Esperanto would have been an enormous success by that measure. However, they didn't, so it isn't. Esperanto is a failure judged by its own purposes.

: depending on what you define as speaking a language, one could say thare are millions or hundreds of thousands of esperanto speakers.
Equally, one could say that it's spoken by eight trillion humans and a horse, but one would, to the same extent, be lying.
Ido, the number two, has much much fewer speakers, and the others are a quantité negligeable... i guess more than 99% of auxlangs, like my own, have a single speaker, their creators...
That's true. And I'm perfectly willing to say - as indeed I initially implied! - that other auxlangs have failed even more spectacularly than Esperanto.
And after all, esperanto has more wikipedia articles than national languages like danish or bulgarian, which is not bad for an auxlang.
Again, i'm not sure that's really what Zamenhof had in mind. And after all, Volapuk has more wikipedia articles than Swahili - doesn't say much about which language is a more succesful language of international communication, though...
PS. What does SAE mean?
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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by lsd » 13 Jul 2018 05:59

Salmoneus wrote:
13 Jul 2018 00:13
And if Zamenhof and the international congress had sat down with the ambition "let's make a conlang that's probably spoken by more people than any other conlang", Esperanto would have been an enormous success by that measure. However, they didn't, so it isn't. Esperanto is a failure judged by its own purposes.
conlang is a XXIth century concept, where one can spend his whole life building something for nothing...
the lack of goal is something that can exist only in a society of vacuum where reality' s matters are out of reach and replaced by the entertainment of virtual realities...

ps: SAE = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Zé do Rock » 13 Jul 2018 09:41

lsd wrote:
13 Jul 2018 05:59
conlang is a XXIth century concept, where one can spend his whole life building something for nothing...
the lack of goal is something that can exist only in a society of vacuum where reality' s matters are out of reach and replaced by the entertainment of virtual realities...

ps: SAE = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European
Europan

É, eu suponho que a um século atrás o pessoal que criava línguas ainda tinha a esperansa real de que a auxlang deles poderia virar a lingua franca do mundo, mas ja que esperanto nao alcansou esse objectivo, ficou difícil de crer que o mundo um dia vai adotar uma língua artificial como lingua franca. Vor allem wenn man bedenkt dass so viele personen esperanto nicht mögen, auch wenn sie maistens kaine ahnung haben wie die sprache geht. So creating conlangs became just a hoby, even if i can imagina dat many still dream af the mega success - mais ce nest plus cun rêve.

He creado europano por dos razones: sendo brasileiro e vivendo na Alemanha, a partir de um certo ponto na minha vid eu comecei escrever as minhas notas em alemao. Vor a par jahren war ich a halbes jahr in Brasilien und begann wieda, portugasish zu schraiben. When i came bak to Germany, i felt i shouldnt write everything in german again, but writing in portuguese felt a bit strange, aut of place, so i thought i could take always the shorta word. Puis jai pensé que je pourrais inclure toutes la languas que je peux parler, et puis jai pensé que je pourrais inclure toutes la languas europannes - por lo menos eso tenía la ventaja que yo podría aprender un poco de todas lenguas europeas. A segunda razao é que as vezes eu tou num grupo multinacional onde nem todo mundo fala inglês. Also statt es zwaimal o mehrmals zu sagen, cann ich es auf europano sagen, das imma das internacionalste word hat, mathematish determiniert. Sometimes it doesnt work, but sometimes it does.

Merci pour linformacion sur SAE!


English House Stile

Yeah, i guess a century ago people creating languages still had a real hope that their auxlang could become the lingua franca of the world, but since esperanto didnt reach thal goal, it became hard to believe the world will have an artificial language as lingua franca some day. Especially considering that so many people dont like it, even if most of them dont have the slightest clue of what it is. So creating conlangs became just a hobby, even if i can imagine that many still dream of the great success - but it is not more than a dream.

I created europano for two reasons: being brazilian and living in Germany, from a certain point of my life i started writing my notes and memos in german. Then a few years ago i was in Brazil for half a year and started writing in portuguese again. When i came bak to Germany, i felt i shouldnt write everything in german again, but writing in portuguese felt a bit strange, out of place, so i thaught i could take always the shorter word, german or portuguese. Then i thaught i could include all the languages i know in the pool, and then i thaught i could include all european languages - it had at least the advantage that i would lern a lot of european vocabulary. The second reason was that sometimes i'm in a multinational group ware not everybody speaks english. So insted of saying things twice (or even several times to different people), i could speak europano, which has the most international word, determined mathematically. Sometimes it doesnt work, but sometimes it does.

Thanks for the info about SAE!

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Zé do Rock » 13 Jul 2018 10:02

Omzinesý wrote:
11 Jul 2018 17:10

Of course, Esperanto will never been an important language. I just mean it can still be discussed on the board in the linguistic perspective, how should it be changed if it was an international auxlang.

Esperanto is simple to learn, as people have said. It's not more logical than any natlang, but I think no logic lang could even theoretically be used as a natlang.
REFORMADO

Yo diría que es improbable, pero no imposible: China vai ser a potencia econômica número 1 do mundo em poucos anos (em alguns pontos ja é), mas aprender chinês é cuase impocível pro nao-chinês. Villeicht finden sich die chinesen damit ab, dass sie die sprache vom stärksten konkurrenten lernen müssen um mit dem rest der welt zu kommuniziren, aber es könnte ja auch sein, dass man zum beispil esperanto wählt, wenigstens is es nich die sprache des gegners. Improbable, sans doute, mais pas impocible.

Porqué dices que esperanto no es una lengua lógica?


ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

I'd say that it is unlikely, but not impossible: China will be the economic power number 1 in a few yeers (in some aspects it is alredy), but to lern chinese is neerly impossible for the non chinese. Maybe the chinese will accept the fact that they hav to lern the language of thare strongest competitor to communicate with the rest of the world, but it could also happen that they choose esperanto - at leest it is not thare rivals language. Unlikely, of course, but not impossible.

Why do you say that esperanto isnt a logical language?

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Re: Esperantidos - pros and contras?

Post by Zé do Rock » 13 Jul 2018 10:38

Reyzadren wrote:
11 Jul 2018 23:56
As an "auxlang", I find Esperanto difficult and imo it still has many complicated/annoying/useless/unnecessary grammar (Perhaps it fixes stuff from an SAE perspective, but that's not my specialty). Certainly, its derivatives such as Ido tried to eliminate some of its problems, but these auxlangs in general are still too difficult for me and hence not worth my time, especially when my own conlang, which is not an auxlang, is far easier.

That, and most auxlangs don't even have much stuff written in them. Finding Esperanto material is easy, but even with Ido, it may as well get into the obscure territory.
EUROPAN

O que é mais facil na tua língua que em Ido? Ich ha mal nachgeshaut, die schrift is es sicher nicht, die prononcierung mit ihrem TH auch nicht. Meybe the grammar, but why?


ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

What is eesier in your language than in Ido? I had a look at griuskant, the writing isnt certainly eesier, nor the pronunciation with its TH. Maybe the grammar, but why?

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