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Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 25 Aug 2018 01:06
by Shemtov
I've been wanting to do an Irish Romlang for a few weeks now, but my altlangs always crash and burn, so if people are willing, I want a Collablang.

Questions Round 1:
1) Will the name of the language come from:
A. Celtic Iveriu <Iveria>
B. Pytheas' Ierne (Jerne?)
C. Ptolemy's Ivernia
D. Latin Hibernia

2) How will the name of the language be constructed (using option B of Q1, as a model)
A. From Latin Iernecus.
B. From Latin Iernensis.
C. From Latin Ierneolus.
D. From Latin Ierneotem
E. Other (specify)

Where will the Latin occupation of Ireland extend to?
A. Dublin Area and the Coast North and South based on Agricola's possible outpost at Drumanagh
B. Dublin Area and inland based on Agricola's possible outpost at Drumanagh
C. Both A and B
D. Other (specify)


What is the status of the language now?
A. Endangered in Ireland
B. Extinct recently (1600+) in Ireland (Specify time period)
C. Regional language in Ireland
D. National language of a separate Country on the Island of Ireland
E. Other (specify)

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 25 Aug 2018 04:29
by Porphyrogenitos
Oh, very interesting.

1. D
2. E (I like the sound of Hiberniote...or Evergnot, or whatever it becomes...)
3. A (I changed this to A since it's more realistic, I think, though I initially voted B since I imagine the community ending up somewhat more inland...but of course we'll get to that later on)
4. A

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 25 Aug 2018 04:32
by shimobaatar
1: d
2: e
3: a
4: c

For question 2, aren't option a and the second option c the same?

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 25 Aug 2018 04:53
by Ælfwine
1.) B. Pytheas' Ierne
2.) B. From Latin Iernensis.
3.) B. Dublin Area and inland based on Agricola's possible outpost at Drumanagh
4.) D. National language of a separate Country on the Island of Ireland

NB. the -iotem suffix should properly be -iotis (c.f. Cypriotis) Regardless, the reflex is the same in vulgar latin. Do note that this is actually a Greek ending

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 25 Aug 2018 05:26
by this_is_an_account
1: D
2: E
3: A
4: C

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 25 Aug 2018 12:08
by Salmoneus
I think you missed the most important question: when should the occupation begin (and end)? A Romlang heavily influenced from pre-Primitive Irish could look very different from one heavily influenced by Old Irish!

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 25 Aug 2018 13:07
by Cavaliers327
I think that Salmoneus is absolutely right. But I really like this idea

1. D
2. C
3. C
4. C

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 26 Aug 2018 03:46
by Shemtov
Salmoneus wrote:
25 Aug 2018 12:08
I think you missed the most important question: when should the occupation begin (and end)? A Romlang heavily influenced from pre-Primitive Irish could look very different from one heavily influenced by Old Irish!
That's what the question of the spacial occupation is for- if we base it on Agricola's possible outpost at Drumanagh, then we're looking at the time question to be from around C. 80 CE. And, I don't see it as so important. If the area where the language is spoken is small, I see no reason why Primitive Irish couldn't follow a similar path to Old Irish as IRL, and a later question would be if there would be parallel development with Irish, ie. a Sprachbund effect, where it follows similar changes.

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 26 Aug 2018 13:05
by Salmoneus
Shemtov wrote:
26 Aug 2018 03:46
Salmoneus wrote:
25 Aug 2018 12:08
I think you missed the most important question: when should the occupation begin (and end)? A Romlang heavily influenced from pre-Primitive Irish could look very different from one heavily influenced by Old Irish!
That's what the question of the spacial occupation is for- if we base it on Agricola's possible outpost at Drumanagh, then we're looking at the time question to be from around C. 80 CE. And, I don't see it as so important. If the area where the language is spoken is small, I see no reason why Primitive Irish couldn't follow a similar path to Old Irish as IRL, and a later question would be if there would be parallel development with Irish, ie. a Sprachbund effect, where it follows similar changes.
On the one hand, the date of occupation limits what can be borrowed or copied into the language. On the other hand, the date of occupation also probably determines features of the Romance spoken there.

I'd also suggest a better geography question, for that matter. Why must settlement be based in the pale? Why not, for example, a Norman-esque settlement of Munster? And where exactly is "inland"? I'd also note that going north and south of Dublin is sort of counterintuitive - there's a big mountain range immediately south of Dublin, and some significant hills north as well.

How about options like "Wexford and Waterford"? (Munster was apparently a big copper producer at one point, though I don't know where exactly). Or "From east to west"? (once you go up the Boyne, you're near to the Shannon, so why not follow it down?) Or "Lough Neagh"? (you could sail up the Bann - which seems counterintuitive until you remember than Ulster has large gold deposits).

It would be worth considering the 'why'. Is this to pacify the Hibenians? Is this just a random mission that ends up accidentally conquering the place? Were the Romans looking for farmland, or for minerals, or just for glory?

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 26 Aug 2018 13:51
by Shemtov
I included an "other" option for a reason. In his Biography of his father-in-law Agricola, Tacitus writes:
In that part of Britain which looks towards Ireland, he posted some troops, hoping for fresh conquests rather than fearing attack, inasmuch as Ireland, being between Britain and Spain and conveniently situated for the seas round Gaul, might have been the means of connecting with great mutual benefit the most powerful parts of the empire. Its extent is small when compared with Britain, but exceeds the islands of our seas. In soil and climate, in the disposition, temper, and habits of its population, it differs but little from Britain. We know most of its harbours and approaches, and that through the intercourse of commerce. One of the petty kings of the nation, driven out by internal faction, had been received by Agricola, who detained him under the semblance of friendship till he could make use of him. I have often heard him say that a single legion with a few auxiliaries could conquer and occupy Ireland, and that it would have a salutary effect on Britain for the Roman arms to be seen everywhere, and for freedom, so to speak, to be banished from its sight.
So we have significant textual evidence that Agricola planned an invasion of Ireland, but was stopped for unknown reasons, though Tacitus indicates that he had to turn his attention to a British rebellion. There is also archaeological evidence of a possible Roman fort near Loughshinny. Some historians speculate that it is evidence that Agricola did start an abortive expedition to Ireland, possibly to scout for the planned invasion.

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 26 Aug 2018 15:41
by Cavaliers327
Also, it would be cool if this language was somehow connected to the British Romlang thread. Like both part of a dialect continuum/region

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 26 Aug 2018 18:52
by samsam
1:D
2:B
3:A
4:C

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 28 Aug 2018 09:29
by Kawdek
1. D
2. B
3. A
4. A

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 28 Aug 2018 16:11
by Zythros Jubi
1.D
2.B
3.D
Fingal and Wexford (Bargy & Forth). The romlang can be heavily influenced by Norman and Old (West) Norse; of course things are different in case of a romlang preserved in England.
4.C

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 31 Aug 2018 03:21
by gokupwned5
1. B
2. D
3. C
4. C

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 31 Aug 2018 04:47
by Shemtov
Answers are in!
1) Will the name of the language come from:
Latin Hibernia
Landslide!

2) How will the name of the language be constructed:
From Latin Hibirniansis. (Hibernian will be the putative name)

Where will the Latin occupation of Ireland extend to?
Dublin Area and the Coast North and South based on Agricola's possible outpost at Drumanagh

What is the status of the language now?
Regional language in Ireland

Round 2:
5) How far North will Hibernian extend?
A. To Skerries
B. To the Southern shore of Dundalk Bay
C. To the Northern Shore of said Bay
D. To Carlingford Lough
E Other (Specify)


6) How far south will Hibernian extend?
A. Only until Bray
B. Skirting the Wicklow Mountains, to River Vartry
C To Brittas Bay
D. Other (Please specify)

7) When will the Roman presence end?
A. 383, with Magnus Maximus
B. 410, with Constantine III
C. 410, due to the Sack of Rome

8) Will Hibernian develop in Parallel from Vulgar Latin with the shift from Primitive to Old Irish (Sprachbund)?
A. No
B. Yes, with development of lenition
C. B, but with Eclipsis
D. Yes, with caol and leathan
E. Both B and D
F. Both C and D

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 31 Aug 2018 07:11
by this_is_an_account
When does Primitive Irish become Old Irish?

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 31 Aug 2018 09:23
by Kawdek
5. B
6. C
7. A
8. C
this_is_an_account wrote:
31 Aug 2018 07:11
When does Primitive Irish become Old Irish?
If you meant in our timeline, as far as I know, due to the distinction between the two relying on the dating of certain Ogham inscriptions, it's difficult to be more specific than around the 6th century.

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 31 Aug 2018 09:40
by this_is_an_account
Kawdek wrote:
31 Aug 2018 09:23
If you meant in our timeline, as far as I know, due to the distinction between the two relying on the dating of certain Ogham inscriptions, it's difficult to be more specific than around the 6th century.
So if Hibernian starts to diverge from Vulgar Latin around the 6th century, does that mean it will follow the expected path of development for a romance language in that area up until then, then we start moving it in a unique direction?

Re: Irish Romlang Collablang

Posted: 31 Aug 2018 13:36
by shimobaatar
5: b
6: c
7: c
8: a