Lapdeutsch

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 07 Dec 2018 22:27

Salmoneus wrote:
07 Dec 2018 21:41
a man who works with or sells fish is a fishman (among other things), while a woman who works with or sells fish is a fishwife.
It's always surprisingly to learn something about your own language. I always assumed a fishwife was the wife of a fisherman. It's where I got the inspiration for the word Fischervrou in Lapdeutsch. I guess back in the day those two ideas were often largely synonymous though.

User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2764
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Dormouse559 » 07 Dec 2018 23:10

All4Ɇn wrote:
07 Dec 2018 22:27
It's always surprisingly to learn something about your own language. I always assumed a fishwife was the wife of a fisherman. It's where I got the inspiration for the word Fischervrou in Lapdeutsch. I guess back in the day those two ideas were often largely synonymous though.
Also "wife" used to just mean "woman". It's actually the first element of "woman" (< OE wīfmann, lit. "woman-person").

Salmoneus wrote:
05 Dec 2018 01:40
-ster is a general Germanic feminine agent suffix. In English, it's become unisex (barrister, teamster, gangster, trickster, dumpster, etc), but in Dutch the original -er/-ster male/female alternation has been retained, as in Lapdeutsch.
That's neat to learn. It means "songstress" is redundant from an etymological standpoint.

User avatar
spanick
roman
roman
Posts: 981
Joined: 11 May 2017 00:47
Location: California

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by spanick » 07 Dec 2018 23:12

Dormouse559 wrote:
07 Dec 2018 23:10
All4Ɇn wrote:
07 Dec 2018 22:27
It's always surprisingly to learn something about your own language. I always assumed a fishwife was the wife of a fisherman. It's where I got the inspiration for the word Fischervrou in Lapdeutsch. I guess back in the day those two ideas were often largely synonymous though.
Also "wife" used to just mean "woman". It's actually the first element of "woman" (< OE wīfmann, lit. "woman-person").
Right, much like Modern Hochdeutsch "Frau" can mean both woman and wife.

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 08 Dec 2018 00:27

Dormouse559 wrote:
07 Dec 2018 23:10
Also "wife" used to just mean "woman". It's actually the first element of "woman"
This much I knew but I didn't realize it had any remnants in modern English.

Edit: Actually I suppose "I now pronounce you man and wife" would be another example of this

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1645
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 18:37

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Salmoneus » 08 Dec 2018 12:53

wife/woman and man/husband are often the same terms, or at least there's often a great deal of overlap. In "man and wife", I don't know if the sense is "man and woman", or "husband and wife"...

Similarly, the old alternation between kweno (woman) and kwe:niz (wife), from which we get 'quean' (whore) and 'queen' (monarch).

Oh, there's an interesting gender alternation along similar lines! A man whose wife is unfaithful is a "cuckold", while a woman whose husband is unfaithful is a "cuckquean".

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 16 Dec 2018 18:24

Declension of Deutscher/Deutsche
Just a small addition to the info on declensions and feminizing agent nouns. Traditionally the nouns Deutscher (male German), Deutsche (female German), and Deutsche (Germans) were declined the same as regular adjectives with the exception of an additional -r in the mixed/strong nominative masculine form. Thus the declension was as follows
Spoiler:
Weak
Nominative: Deutsche/Deutsche/Deutschen
Accusative: Deutschen/Deutsche/Deutschen
Dative: Deutschen/Deutschen/Deutschen
Genitive: Deutschen/Deutschen/Deutschen

Mixed
Nominative: Deutscher/Deutsche/Deutsche or Deutschen
Accusative: Deutschen/Deutsche/Deutsche or Deutschen
Dative: Deutschen/Deutschen/Deutschen
Genitive: Deutschen/Deutschen/Deutschen

Strong
Nominative: Deutscher/Deutsche/Deutsche
Accusative: Deutschen/Deutsche/Deutsche
Dative: Deutschem/Deutscher/Deutschen
Genitive: Deutschen/Deutscher/Deutscher
This declension is largely seen as outdated and is no longer commonly used. Instead the nouns have become regularized into following the same declension rules as A and O declension nouns, albeit one with a shared plural used for both genders as well as a collective noun:
Nominative/Accusative: Deutscher/Deutsche/Deutsche
Dative: Deutscher/Deutsche/Deutschen
Genitive: Deutschers/Deutsche/Deutsche

The only exception to this rule is when the plural form is used after a determiner that takes mixed/weak adjectives. In this scenario, Deutsche acts just like the determiner beide and becomes Deutschen in all 4 cases. Note that like with beiden, even though the mixed plural ending in modern language is -e, the mixed form of Deutsche remains exceptionally Deutschen.

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 20 Dec 2018 02:29

Weihnachten un Christdag- Christmas
Given that it's that time of the year I thought I could talk about the two Lapdeutsch words for Christmas. [:)] Unlike in German where Christmas is known as Weihnachten, and Dutch where it's known as Kerstmiss, Lapdeutsch makes a distinction between two different words for Christmas, both of which are similar to the words in the previously mentioned languages. Below are the different usages, with some terms using them to help demonstrate the differences

Weihnachten (n)
The most generic word for Christmas. It's used for the season in general, things/events related to the season, and for the evening on Christmas day. Like in German, Weihnachten is a neuter noun but takes a plural adjective ending in greetings and becomes Weihnachts- when used in compounds.

Terms using it:
Feine Weihnachten- Merry Christmas (used everywhere except between Christmas morning and Christmas evening)
Tweide Weihnachtsdag- Second day of Christmas
Weihnachtseiland- Christmasy island
Weihnachtsferië- Christmasy vacation
Weihnachtsgift- Christmas present
Weihnachtsküüksjen- Christmas cookie
Weihnachtslied- Christmas carol/Christmas song
Weihnachtsmorgen- Christmasy morning
Weihnachtsmorgens- Christmasy breakfast

Christdag (m)
Christdag is a lot more specific than Weihnachten and is only used to refer to three specific things: Christmas Day as a whole, Christmas morning (after midnight) as opposed to Christmas evening, or for the combination of Christmas and Boxing Day.

Terms using it:
Feinen Christdag- Merry Christmas (only said between Christmas morning and Christmas evening such as after church)
Tweide Christdag- Boxing Day
Christdagseiland- Christmas Island (because it was sighted on Christmas Day)
Christdagsferië- Christmas break (although the break may encompass days before Christmas, Christmas Day is the focus of the break)
Christdagsgift- Christmas present (opened Christmas morning; doesn't apply to Germans but could be used for Americans)
Christdagsküüksjen- Christmas cookie (baked Christmas morning)
Christdagslied- Christmas carol/Christmas song (specifically a religious one about Christmas Day)
Christdagsmorgen- Christmas morning
Christdagsmorgens- Christmas breakfast

And so depending on when you may be reading this, feine Weihnachten efte feinen Christdag!

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 30 Dec 2018 04:09

Present Tense Verbs
Regular Verbs
In regular verbs, the present tense endings are practically identical to Standard German.
1st Person Singular: -e or -
2nd Person Singular: -s
3rd Person Singular: -t

1st Person Plural: -en
2nd Person Plural: -t
3rd Person Plural: -en

Irregularities
1. The -e ending in the first person singular present indicative is typically seen as being the correct ending to most verbs but is in fact an overcorrection borrowed from Standard German. It's very common in writing (particularly formal writing) but in communication it's often dropped and is practically never used in informal communication. Some irregular verbs never take the ending -e even in formal speech. Compare "ich sehe" (SG) vs. "ik seh" (LD).
2. Verbs with stems ending -s/-sch/-z have no ending in the second person singular if they undergo a vowel change e.g: du lies (you read). If they do not undergo a vowel change, they take the ending -t e.g: du passt (you fit). This -t is typically unpronounced when followed by dé or du but is nevertheless always written. Verbs ending in -st take the ending -t but it is always unpronounced
3. Verbs with stems ending in -d/-t have no ending in the 3rd person singular except for the verb eten (to eat) which has the form "he itt" (he eats). This is only done to avoid confusion between it (it) and itt (eats).
4. Verbs with stems ending in -d/-t take the ending -et in the 2nd person plural.


Stem Changes
There are two major kinds of stem changes in Lapdeutsch

Vowel Change
This change only ever happens in strong and mixed verbs. In the second and third person singular forms, the main vowel in the stem of the verb can change. Below are the different patterns it can undertake.
1. /a ɑː ɔ oː ʊ uː/ -> /ɛ ɛː œ øː ʏ yː/ (umlaut), e.g: sugen (to suck) -> du süügs (you suck)
2. /œʏ̯/ -> /yː/, e.g: leugen (to lie) -> du lüügs (you lie)
3. /ɛ/ -> /ɪ/, e.g: werpen (to throw) -> du wirps (you throw)
4. /eː/ -> /iː/, e.g: stelen (to steal) -> du stiels (you steal)
5. /eː/ -> /ɪ/, e.g: geven (to give) -> du givs (you give)
6. /ɛ/ -> /eː/, e.g: scheppen (to create) -> du scheeps (you create)
7. /œ/ -> /ɛ/, only occurs in nömmen (to call/name) -> du nemms (you call/name)
In addition, although it is neither a strong or mixed verb, the verb kopen (to buy) undergoes an umlaut in the second and third person singular forms, thus du kööps (you buy). It's a completely regular verb aside from this change.

Schwa Insertion
Verbs ending in some complicated consonant clusters change their stem in every tense when the ending isn't -e/-en/-end. Additionally, these verbs never take the -e ending in the first person singular present indicative and thus undergo the stem change there as well. Below is an example of the verb conjugation

Teeknen (to draw)
1st Person Singular: Teeken
2nd Person Singular: Teekens
3rd Person Singular: Teekent

1st Person Plural: Teeknen
2nd Person Plural: Teekent
3rd Person Plural: Teeknen

Other verbs with this conjugation include aadmen (to breathe), oppnen (to open), and sammlen (to collect)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 02 Apr 2019 11:30, edited 5 times in total.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 11637
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by shimobaatar » 03 Jan 2019 18:01

Thanks for all your responses! Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread.
Spoiler:
All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Nov 2018 23:21
If you look back at it I said final /g/ became /ç/ not [ç]
Oh, sorry about that. [>_<] I thought that might have been a typo because, for some reason, I would have expected a word like "merged" to be used.
All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Nov 2018 23:21
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Nov 2018 16:41
Whoa!
I take it you like the idea? [:)]
Definitely!

All4Ɇn wrote:
08 Nov 2018 08:27
Hopefully I'm not posting too much.
I can understand the feeling, but, as others have said, post away! I love hearing about your languages, even if it can take me months to actually say so.
All4Ɇn wrote:
08 Nov 2018 08:27
Definite Article
Also used as relative pronouns
Nominative: De/Die/Dat/Die
Accusative: Den/Die/Dat/Die
Dative: Dem/Der/Dem/Den
Genitive: Des/Der/Des/Der
Masculine/feminine/neuter/plural, I presume?
All4Ɇn wrote:
08 Nov 2018 08:27
Beidet (Both)
This word occurs as a pronoun in both the singular and plural but only in the plural when used as a determiner. The singular form is always used for two situations or two choices and can be used with objects, and when doing so treats them as a collective whole. The plural is always used for people and can also be used for objects.
Could we possibly see some examples of these usages?
All4Ɇn wrote:
16 Nov 2018 00:25
When used as determiners, jeder and ein words have slightly different declensions in the nominative and accusative cases.
Oh, then when would the declensions for these kinds of words outlined in the previous post (at the bottom of the first page) be used? Do they take those endings as pronouns, as opposed to determiners? Or are those meant to be the endings that adjectives following them take?
All4Ɇn wrote:
19 Nov 2018 06:19
Plural persons also take their own reciprocal pronouns which are only used instead of the reflexive after prepositions or when context isn't clear that the action is reciprocal instead of reflexive. Reciprocal pronouns can also be used in the genitive by simply adding -s.
I like this!

Your descriptions of the language's vowel reduction are quite interesting as well.
All4Ɇn wrote:
26 Nov 2018 23:54
Yeah I think I'm not going to include it. Maybe I'll reuse it for another language sometime
I hope you do! I like the sounds of those forms.
All4Ɇn wrote:
27 Nov 2018 00:36
Like in German, in older texts some nouns may be used with completely Latinate declensions, including using the ablative and vocative. In modern language, only three proper nouns are ever encountered in completely Latinate declension. Outside of religious usage, the only non-nominative forms still in use for these nouns are the vocative and genitive for both Jesus & Christus, although the use of these forms has been continually decreasing despite still being common. In modern speech all three of these nouns can take the modern genitive forms used for names.
Cool! I didn't know that about German.

If I haven't said so before, I really like the inclusion of details regarding how the language used to be/"should" be vs. how typical speakers actually use it now.
All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Dec 2018 03:58
In contrast to German which mostly just has the suffix -in, Lapdeutsch has a wide variety of suffixes used to create feminine agent nouns from masculine ones.
[+1] Love the variety here.
All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Dec 2018 03:58
AfgodAfgoddess (idol)
Oh, I like the way this pair of words in particular looks! I assume they mean "idol" in the religious sense, not "someone who is looked up to", judging by the "-god/-goddess" ending.
All4Ɇn wrote:
20 Dec 2018 02:29
Weihnachten (n)
The most generic word for Christmas. It's used for the season in general, things/events related to the season, and for the evening on Christmas day. Like in German, Weihnachten is a neuter noun but takes a plural adjective ending in greetings and becomes Weihnachts- when used in compounds.
All4Ɇn wrote:
20 Dec 2018 02:29
Christdag (m)
Christdag is a lot more specific than Weihnachten and is only used to refer to three specific things: Christmas Day as a whole, Christmas morning (after midnight) as opposed to Christmas evening, or for the combination of Christmas and Boxing Day.
This is a fun idea! [:D]
All4Ɇn wrote:
20 Dec 2018 02:29
Weihnachtseiland- Christmasy island
I was about to ask what this is supposed to mean, but then I realized it's there to contrast with the proper place name "Christdagseiland".
All4Ɇn wrote:
20 Dec 2018 02:29
And so depending on when you may be reading this, feine Weihnachten efte feinen Christdag!
I know it's late, but same to you!
All4Ɇn wrote:
30 Dec 2018 04:09
For simplification purposes, when two vowels are written, the vowel is long and when one vowel is written the vowel is short. This is regardless of the spelling.
Sorry, but could you perhaps clarify what you mean here?
All4Ɇn wrote:
30 Dec 2018 04:09
4. ee -> ie e.g: stelen (to steal) -> du stiels (you steal)
5. ee -> i e.g: geven (to give) -> du givs (you give)
Are these verbs supposed to be "steelen" and "geeven", or are the changes supposed to be e -> ie and e -> i, or am I missing something?

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 05 Jan 2019 18:21

shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
Thanks for all your responses! Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread.
Your responses are definitely appreciated!
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
Oh, sorry about that. [>_<] I thought that might have been a typo because, for some reason, I would have expected a word like "merged" to be used.
That actually makes the sentence a lot clearer. Changing it to that now [:)]
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
Masculine/feminine/neuter/plural, I presume?
Yep!
All4Ɇn wrote:
08 Nov 2018 08:27
Beidet (Both)
This word occurs as a pronoun in both the singular and plural but only in the plural when used as a determiner. The singular form is always used for two situations or two choices and can be used with objects, and when doing so treats them as a collective whole. The plural is always used for people and can also be used for objects.
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
Could we possibly see some examples of these usages?
Wolldes du swimmen gahn efte schuren gahn? Beidet sind me gud- Would you like to go swimming or go shopping? Both are good to me. (between two situations or choices)
Wills du Pizza efte Hamburger an Middags? Ik will beidet- Do you want pizza or hamburgers for lunch? I want both. (as the person wants both, the food together is treated as a collective)
Tüüsch de Hud un die Wanten, welke is beter? Ik mag beide- Between the hat and the mittens, which one is better? I like both. (the person is stating they like each of the two individually, not as a collective whole)
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
Oh, then when would the declensions for these kinds of words outlined in the previous post (at the bottom of the first page) be used? Do they take those endings as pronouns, as opposed to determiners? Or are those meant to be the endings that adjectives following them take?
[>_<] Wow I really screwed up on the writing for that post. Those endings are actually the ones used when used as pronouns while the ones in the post before it are used as determiners.
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
Your descriptions of the language's vowel reduction are quite interesting as well.
Thanks [:)]
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
I hope you do! I like the sounds of those forms.
We'll have to see [;)]. I'm still leaning towards not including them
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
If I haven't said so before, I really like the inclusion of details regarding how the language used to be/"should" be vs. how typical speakers actually use it now.
I think it's a very important part of any language and considering how much of this conlang's grammatical peculiarities are based on grammarians working to maintain certain features, I think it's especially important to include [:D]
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
Oh, I like the way this pair of words in particular looks! I assume they mean "idol" in the religious sense, not "someone who is looked up to", judging by the "-god/-goddess" ending.
You are correct. This pair of words also occurs almost identically in Dutch as afgod/afgodes and afgod is also apparently an obsolete English word as well.
shimobaatar wrote:
03 Jan 2019 18:01
Sorry, but could you perhaps clarify what you mean here? Are these verbs supposed to be "steelen" and "geeven", or are the changes supposed to be e -> ie and e -> i, or am I missing something?
Sorry I'm going to go back and correct it. What I was basically saying was when the vowels are written as a doubled letter in the chart indicating changes, they may or may not be written as doubled in the actual orthography of the language. Geven is written with one e in the infinitive but is pronounced with a long ee, whereas the form givt is pronounced with a short i. I should have indicated the changes using IPA so I'm going back and changing that now [:)]


Thanks for all the questions! If you have any more feel free to leave them.

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 09 Jan 2019 20:16

Modal Verbs
Below are the present tense conjugations for modal verbs, all of which are irregular in at least one singular form in the present tense. Although it is not technically a modal verb, witten conjugates like one and so is included. Notice that these verbs may have different meanings compared to Dutch, German, and English usages of their cognates.

Können- Can or Could (when used in the past subjunctive)
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Kann
Second Person Singular: Kanns
Third Person Singular: Kann

First Person Plural: Können
Second Person Plural: Könnt
Third Person Plural: Können
Mägen- May or To Be Allowed To or To Like
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Mag /maç/
Second Person Singular: Mags
Third Person Singular: Mag /maç/

First Person Plural: Mägen
Second Person Plural: Määgt
Third Person Plural: Mägen
Müten- Must/Have To or Should (when used in the past subjunctive)
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Mutt
Second Person Singular: Mutts
Third Person Singular: Mutt

First Person Plural: Müten
Second Person Plural: Mütet
Third Person Plural: Müten
Sollen- Will/Shall or Should (in the sense of possibility when used in the past subjunctive)
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Sall
Second Person Singular: Salls
Third Person Singular: Sall

First Person Plural: Sollen
Second Person Plural: Sollt
Third Person Plural: Sollen
Wetten- To Know
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Weit
Second Person Singular: Weits
Third Person Singular: Weit

First Person Plural: Wetten
Second Person Plural: Wettet
Third Person Plural: Wetten
Werden- To Become or Will Be or To Be (Passive) or Would (when used in the past subjunctive)
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Werde
Second Person Singular: Wirs
Third Person Singular: Wird

First Person Plural: Werden
Second Person Plural: Werdet
Third Person Plural: Werden
Willen- To Want or Will (if impersonal, in questions, or some phrases) or Would Like (when used in the past subjunctive)
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Will
Second Person Singular: Wills
Third Person Singular: Will

First Person Plural: Willen
Second Person Plural: Willt
Third Person Plural: Willen
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 17 Feb 2019 06:26, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 16 Jan 2019 20:46

-N Verbs
These 5 verbs are arguably the only other verbs that are irregular in the present tense. All of them lack the -en ending in their infinitive instead having simply the ending -n. They do not take the ending -e in the first person singular and although their first/third person plural forms are technically irregular, they are identical to the infinitive like in regular verbs. 4 out of the 5 undergo a vowel change in the second and third person singular forms.

Dun- Do
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Du
Second Person Singular: Dus
Third Person Singular: Dut

First Person Plural: Dun
Second Person Plural: Dut
Third Person Plural: Dun
Gahn- Go
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Gah
Second Person Singular: Gähs
Third Person Singular: Gäht

First Person Plural: Gahn
Second Person Plural: Gaht
Third Person Plural: Gahn
Sehn- See
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Seh
Second Person Singular: Siehs
Third Person Singular: Sieht

First Person Plural: Sehn
Second Person Plural: Seht
Third Person Plural: Sehn
Slahn- Hit/Beat/Strike
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Slah
Second Person Singular: Slähs
Third Person Singular: Släht

First Person Plural: Slahn
Second Person Plural: Slaht
Third Person Plural: Slahn
Stahn- Stand
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Stah
Second Person Singular: Stähs
Third Person Singular: Stäht

First Person Plural: Stahn
Second Person Plural: Staht
Third Person Plural: Stahn

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 16 Jan 2019 21:18

Simple Past
As mentioned earlier, the simple past is considered the main past tense form and is the only one used in formal conversation. As you probably imagined, it is formed very similar to how it is in Dutch and German.

Weak Verbs
1st Person Singular: -de
2nd Person Singular: -des
3rd Person Singular: -de

1st Person Plural: -den
2nd Person Plural: -det
3rd Person Plural: -den

Notes
1. Verbs that undergo schwa insertion insert the schwa in all forms thus we teeknen (we draw) -> we teekenden (we drew)
2. Verbs whose stems end in /p k t͡s t͡ʃ f s ʃ ç/ replace the -d with -t in all forms
3. Verbs ending in /t d/ double the consonant in writing but do not pronounce them, thus we närden uns (we approach) & we närdden uns (we approached) are pronounced exactly the same.

Strong Verbs
Strong verbs undergo a vowel change in addition to taking the following endings
1st Person Singular: -
2nd Person Singular: -s
3rd Person Singular: -

1st Person Plural: -en
2nd Person Plural: -et
3rd Person Plural: -en

Here are the different vowel changes present in past tense strong verbs:
Class 1: /ɛɪ̯/ -> /ɛ/, e.g: keiken (to look at) -> du kecks (you looked at)
Class 2 Pattern 1: /œʏ̯/ -> /oː/, e.g: geneuten (to enjoy) -> du genoots (you enjoyed)
Class 2 Pattern 2: /uː/ -> /oː/, e.g: supen (to guzzle) -> du soops (you guzzled)
Class 3 Pattern 1: /ɪ/ -> /a/, e.g: winnen (to win) -> du wanns (you won)
Class 3 Pattern 2: /ɛ/ -> /a/, e.g: gelden (to be regarded) -> du galds (you were regarded)
Class 4: /eː/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: beren (to give birth) -> du baars (you gave birth)
Class 4 (Irregular): /oː/ -> /ɑː/, only occurs in komen (to come) -> du kaams (you came)
Class 5 Pattern 1: /eː/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: eten (to eat) -> du aats (you ate)
Class 5 Pattern 2: /ɪ/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: sitten (to sit) -> du saats (you sat)
Class 6 Pattern 1: /ɑː/ -> /uː/, e.g: faren (to sail) -> du fuurs (you sailed)
Class 6 Pattern 2: /a/ -> /uː/, e.g: wachsen (to grow) -> du wuuchs (you grew)
Class 6 Pattern 3: /ɛ/ -> /uː/, e.g: swerren (to swear) -> du swuurs (you swore)
Class 7: V -> /iː/, e.g: rupen (to call) -> du rieps (you called)

Notes
1. In addition to undergoing vowel changes, four strong verbs also undergo consonant changes: freusen (to freeze) has the simple past tense stem fror-, hebben (to raise) has the simple past tense stem huv-, houen (to chop) has the simple past tense stem hiev-, and verleusen (to lose) has the simple past tense stem verlor-
2. Strong verbs whose stems ending in -s/-sch/-st/-z have no ending in the second person singular informal form, e.g: du las (you read)

Uutkomen
This separable prefix verb has two separate strong endings depending on the meaning of the verb. Typically this verb means "to be fitting/convenient" or "to come out right/fit together" and when doing so has the exact same conjugation as komen, meaning the past tense stem is kam-...uut. However, when used in its irregular past tense form, quam-...uut, this verb means "to be from/come from". Regardless as to whether it is present or past action, only the irregular past tense form of the verb is used for this meaning thus: "ik quam Mönieken uut" means "I am/come from Munich" or "I was/came from Munich".

Mixed Verbs
I talked about this in an earlier post. Mixed verbs take the same endings as weak verbs but undergo a vowel and sometimes a consonant change in the stem. For the sake of completion with the post, here are the mixed verbs again.
Brennen (Burn): Brannd-
Bringen (Bring): Bracht-
Bruken (Need): Brucht-
Denken (Think): Dacht-
Dünken (Seem): Ducht-
Kennen (Know): Kannd-
Nömmen (Call): Nammd-
Plegen (Do habitually/nurse): Placht-
Rennen (Run): Rannd-
Seggen (Say): Said-
Senden (Send): Sandd-
Süken (Look for): Sucht-
Wenden (Turn): Wandd-

Modal Verbs
Modal verbs are practically the same as mixed verbs in the past tense in that they undergo a vowel and sometimes a stem change while also taking the same past tense endings as weak verbs
Können (Can): Konnd-
Mägen (May/allowed to/like): Mocht-
Müten (Must): Must-
Sollen (Will/shall): Solld-
Wetten (Know): Wist-
Werden (Become/be): Word-
Willen (Want): Wolld-

Other Irregular Verbs
These verbs have irregular stems which are added to strong verb endings
Gahn (Go): Ging-
Heven (Have): Hadd-
Sehn (See): Sag-
Slahn (Hit): Slug-
Stahn (Stand): Stund-

Dun- Do
1st Person Singular: Ded /dɛt/
2nd Person Singular: Deeds
3rd Person Singular: Ded /dɛt/

1st Person Plural: Deden
2nd Person Plural: Dedet
3rd Person Plural: Deden

Sein/Wesen- Be
1st Person Singular: Was /was/
2nd Person Singular: Was /was/
3rd Person Singular: Was /was/

1st Person Plural: Waren
2nd Person Plural: Waart
3rd Person Plural: Waren
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 08 Feb 2019 16:44, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 04 Feb 2019 21:23

The Demonstrative Pronoun Dat
In addition to being a definite article and relative pronoun, dat is also used as a demonstrative pronoun and has several meanings and usages

This/That or These/Those
Probably the main meaning of the word. Practically the same as in Dutch in that respect.
Dat is gud- That/this is good
Dat sind meine Brüder- Those/these are my brothers/siblings

There
Means there in 2 common expressions:
Dat givt- There is/are (identical in usage to German es gibt)
Dat is/sind- There is/are (identical in usage to German es ist/sind)

Filler Subject
Similar to German, wherein a sentence can be rearranged so that the subject becomes an object and the subject becomes "es", in Lapdeutsch a sentence can rearranged, making dat the subject.
Dat singen drei Vrouen- Three women are singing
Dat koomt ein Sturm up- A storm is coming

Impersonal Expressions
Used for impersonal expressions followed by an um...tu infinitive clause:
Dat is jünglik, um ski tu laten- It’s fun to ski
Dat is däprig, um se bei me up tu wecken- It’s important to pay attention to me

Other impersonal expressions typically use “it” including those related to the weather:
It is fein, dat du kaams- It is nice that you came
It raint hüdige- It’s raining today

Object Pronoun
When the object pronoun is "it" and one wishes to place it in first position, it always becomes dat:
Dat hev ik ‘sehn- I saw it
Dat müsten we lesen!- We should read it!

Vowel Reduction
-Unstressed dat when used as a pronoun is typically /dət/
-In informal speech it can be further reduced to ‘t /t/ in exactly the same situations that “it” can: when after a verb/preposition not ending in -d or -t, after other pronouns including those that have the -self ending, when starting off a sentence and followed by a vowel or easy to pronounce consonant/consonant cluster, and as well as some other situations. Thus in informal speech “‘t is mei’ Wain” means both “it is my car” and “that is my car” and not just the former. Dat cannot be reduced to ‘t when being used as a definite article or relative pronoun.
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 05 Feb 2019 03:01, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4590
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Creyeditor » 04 Feb 2019 21:42

All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Feb 2019 21:23
There
Means there in 3 common expressions:
Dat givt- There is/are (identical in usage to German es gibt)
Dat sind- There are (identical in usage to German es sind)
I am curious. What usage are you referring to? Me, as a native German speaker, I have difficulties to think of what you mean, since at least the second one overlaps with what you mention later in the post, IIUC.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 04 Feb 2019 22:19

Creyeditor wrote:
04 Feb 2019 21:42
I am curious. What usage are you referring to? Me, as a native German speaker, I have difficulties to think of what you mean, since at least the second one overlaps with what you mention later in the post, IIUC.
Looking at it from a German perspective you're definitely right in that "es sind" in this meaning is grammatically identical to "es" working as a filler subject. From an English perspective the translation would usually be different for "es sind" in this scenario though as it's working much more as a phrase that'd be translated as "there are". For instance, "es sind drei Kartons auf dem Tisch" would be more naturally translated as "there are three boxes on the table" even though it's just a reorganized form of "drei Kartons sind auf dem Tisch". Hopefully this explanation helped clear it up a bit more [:)]

User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6358
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by eldin raigmore » 04 Feb 2019 23:35

In Southeast Michigan AAVE “it’s a box on the table” translates into Standard American English as “there is a box on the table”.
Both dialects are as Germanic as any other kind of English.
I doubt AAVE “it is” is a translationism of German “es sind” or vice versa.
I could be wrong.

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 05 Feb 2019 02:59

eldin raigmore wrote:
04 Feb 2019 23:35
In Southeast Michigan AAVE “it’s a box on the table” translates into Standard American English as “there is a box on the table”.
Both dialects are as Germanic as any other kind of English.
I doubt AAVE “it is” is a translationism of German “es sind” or vice versa.
I could be wrong.
That’s interesting. I live in the South and I’ve never heard that construction before. I’d imagine it’s not from German but given the high percentage of people of German ancestry in Michigan I can’t entirely rule out the possibility myself

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4590
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Creyeditor » 05 Feb 2019 19:34

All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Feb 2019 22:19
Creyeditor wrote:
04 Feb 2019 21:42
I am curious. What usage are you referring to? Me, as a native German speaker, I have difficulties to think of what you mean, since at least the second one overlaps with what you mention later in the post, IIUC.
Looking at it from a German perspective you're definitely right in that "es sind" in this meaning is grammatically identical to "es" working as a filler subject. From an English perspective the translation would usually be different for "es sind" in this scenario though as it's working much more as a phrase that'd be translated as "there are". For instance, "es sind drei Kartons auf dem Tisch" would be more naturally translated as "there are three boxes on the table" even though it's just a reorganized form of "drei Kartons sind auf dem Tisch". Hopefully this explanation helped clear it up a bit more [:)]
Thank you for the clarification. Locative usage, that makes sense [:)]
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1818
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 13 Feb 2019 20:41

Sample Sentences Using Kafka's The Metamorphosis
I've realized that I haven't exactly included many written samples of Lapdeutsch yet so I thought I'd change that. Here are 4 version's illustrating the German-Lapdeutsch continuum using a passage from Kafka's The Metamorphosis. The bolded words are those that differ from the original German either in etymology or in grammar. It's not an exact science as some words simply wouldn't be used in informal speech anyway nowadays in both German and Lapdeutsch like Geschäftsdiener (errand boy in English translation) but I've tried to give a pretty good example of how the differences play out in practice.

Original German
Spoiler:
Und er sah zur Weckuhr hinüber, die auf dem Kasten tickte. »Himmlischer Vater,« dachte er. Es war halb sieben Uhr, und die Zeiger gingen ruhig vorwärts, es war sogar halb vorüber, es näherte sich schon dreiviertel. Sollte der Wecker nicht geläutet haben? Man sah vom Bett aus, daß er auf vier Uhr richtig eingestellt war; gewiß hatte er auch geläutet. Ja, aber war es möglich, dieses möbelerschütternde Läuten ruhig zu verschlafen? Nun, ruhig hatte er ja nicht geschlafen, aber wahrscheinlich desto fester. Was aber sollte er jetzt tun? Der nächste Zug ging um sieben Uhr; um den einzuholen, hätte er sich unsinnig beeilen müssen, und die Kollektion war noch nicht eingepackt, und er selbst fühlte sich durchaus nicht besonders frisch und beweglich. Und selbst wenn er den Zug einholte, ein Donnerwetter des Chefs war nicht zu vermeiden, denn der Geschäftsdiener hatte beim Fünfuhrzug gewartet und die Meldung von seiner Versäumnis längst erstattet.
Archaic Lapdeutsch
This is how the original standard of Lapdeutsch would render the passage. This form of the language is completely obsolete in modern speaking but remains in older texts. It is based heavily on Standard German and preserves many features that were not present in spoken language including a complete case system. Many words are seemingly directly from standard German.
Spoiler:
Un he sag tum Wecker over, de op dem Kassen tickte. »Himmlische Vader,« dachte he. It was halv seven Uhr, un die Weiser gingen rüstig vorwarts, it was fachs halb vorbei, it närdde se reits dreiquart. Sollde de Wecker neut gelüüdd heven? Man sag vam Bedde uut, dat he um vier Uhr rechtgesett was; wiss hadd he ock gelüüdd. Ja, män was it mööglik, dis Möbelschüddende Lüden rüstig tu verslapen? Nu, rüstig hadd he jach neut geslapen, män waarscheinlik deste fäster. Wat sonder sollde he jéén dun? De nächste Trein ging um seven Uhr; um jenen ein tu halen, hädde he se unsinnig hasten gemust/müten, un die Collection was noch neut eingepackt, un heself füülde se affels neut besonder frisch un beweegbar. Un fachs gevend he den Trein einhaalde, ein Dunnerweder des Chefs was neut tu vermeiden, da de Schurdener hadd up dem Feifuhrtreine gewächtt un die Melding van seinem Versome allang turuggeteggen.
Standard Lapdeutsch
This is the how the modern standard of Lapdeutsch would render the passage. This form of the language essentially came about as the result of informal dialects merging with the highly formal & now archaic original standard language. The main differences in this passage versus the previous is the dropping of cases outside of certain expressions.
Spoiler:
Un he keck tum Wecker, de op de Kassen tickte. »Himmlische Vader,« dachte he. It was halv seven Uhr, un die Weiser gingen rüstig vorwarts, it was fachs halb vorbei, it närdde se reits um Quart vor. Sollde de Wecker neut gelüüdd heven? Man keck van de Bedd, dat he um vier Uhr rechtgesett/corrigeert was; wiss hadd he ock gelüüdd. Ja, män was it mööglik, dise Möbelschüddende Lüding rüstig tu verslapen? Nu, rüstig hadd he jach neut geslapen, män waarscheinlik fäster. Wat sonder sollde he jéén dun? De nächste Trein ging um seven Uhr; um jeen ein tu halen, hädde he se unsinnig hasten gemust, un die Kollektion was noch neut eingepackt, un heself füülde se affels neut besonder frisch un beweegbar. Un fachs gevend he de Trein einhalen wörde, wäre ein Dunnerweder van de Chef unvermeidlik, da de Schurdener hadd up de Feifuhrtrein gewächtt un die Melding van seine Afwesenheid allang turuggeteggen.
Very Informal Lapdeutsch
Tried making the passage as informal as I could while still trying to keep the words chosen as similar as possible. Most notable feature is the presence of the informal compound past.
Spoiler:
Un ‘e het an de Wecker ‘kecken, de op de Kassen ‘tickt het. »Himmlische Vader,« dachte he. ‘t Was halv seven Uhr, un die Weiser sind rüstig vorwarts ‘gangen, ‘t was fachs halb vorbei, it het se reits um Quart vor ‘närdd. Sollde de Wecker neut gelüüdd heven? Man het van de Bedd ‘kecken, dat ‘e um vier Uhr corrigeert was. Wiss hadd‘e ock gelüüdd. Ja, män was’t mööglik, dise Möbelschüddende Lüding rüstig tu verslapen? Nu, rüstig hadd‘e jach neut geslapen, män waarscheinlik fäster. Wat sonder sollde he jéén dun? Die nächste Ban is um seven Uhr ‘gangen. Um jeen ein tu halen, hädd’e se unsinnig hasten gemust, un die Kollektion was noch neut eingepackt, un ‘eself het se affels neut besonder frisch un beweegbar ‘füüld. Un fachs gevend ‘e die Ban einhalen wörde, wär de Chef sein Dunnerweder unvermeidlik, da de Schurdener hadd up die Feifuhrban gewächtt un die Melding van seine Afwesenheid allang turuggeteggen.
English Translation
Spoiler:
And he looked over at the alarm clock ticking away by the chest of drawers. "Good God," he thought. It was half past six, and the hands were going quietly on. It was past the half hour, already nearly quarter to. Could the alarm have failed to ring? One saw from the bed that it was properly set for four o'clock. Certainly it had rung. Yes, but was it possible to sleep through this noise that made the furniture shake? Now, it's true he'd not slept quietly, but evidently he'd slept all the more deeply. Still, what should he do now? The next train left at seven o'clock. To catch that one, he would have to go in a mad rush. The sample collection wasn't packed up yet, and he really didn't feel particularly fresh and active. And even if he caught the train, there was no avoiding a blow up with the boss, because the firm's errand boy would've waited for the five o'clock train and reported the news of his absence long ago.

Post Reply