Lapdeutsch

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All4Ɇn
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 16 Nov 2018 00:25

Jeder & Ein Words as Determiners
When used as determiners, jeder and ein words have slightly different declensions in the nominative and accusative cases.

Jeder Words
Nominative: -er/-e/-er/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-er/-e

Ein Words
Nominative: -e/-e/-e/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-e/-e

When these declensions are used with possessive determiners, they can optionally be preceded by a definite article. If the article is de or die and precedes here (hers), unser/unse (ours), or euer/eue (yours), it is very often contracted to d', which causes here to be further simplified to just ere. In informal speech, possessive determiners are by far most commonly used without the definite articles, except for those forms above which can contract with de & die. As a result, in informal speech "here" is mostly only used with neuter nouns, while the masculine and feminine form is typically "d'ere".

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Salmoneus » 16 Nov 2018 13:54

All4Ɇn wrote:
08 Nov 2018 08:27
Determiners
Hopefully I'm not posting too much.
Pretty sure you can post about your own language on your own thread as much as you like!

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 19 Nov 2018 05:43

Salmoneus wrote:
16 Nov 2018 13:54
Pretty sure you can post about your own language on your own thread as much as you like!
Thanks. Just want to make sure it's not too much too quick I guess [:)]

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 19 Nov 2018 06:19

Personal Pronouns
Personal pronouns generally have 3 forms: subject, object (also used for indirect object and unstressed reflexive), and stressed reflexive. In all forms in the third person, a unique pronoun is used for the unstressed reflexive while in third person masculine singular and third person plural there also exists a separate pronoun for the indirect object. For reflexive pronouns, the stressed forms are used after prepositions or to stress the reflexiveness of the act while unstressed forms are used elsewhere. Plural persons also take their own reciprocal pronouns which are only used instead of the reflexive after prepositions or when context isn't clear that the action is reciprocal instead of reflexive. Reciprocal pronouns can also be used in the genitive by simply adding -s.

First Person
Singular
Subject: Ik
Object: Me
Stressed Reflexive: Meself

Plural
Subject: We
Object: Uns
Stressed Reflexive: Unself
Reciprocal: Unsander


Second Person
Singular
Subject: Du
Object:
Stressed Reflexive: Deself

Plural
Subject: Je
Object: Ju
Stressed Reflexive: Juself
Reciprocal: Juander

Formal (Singular And Plural)
Subject: Her
Object: Hern
Stressed Reflexive: Hernself
Reciprocal: Hernander
Conjugates as 3rd person plural but uses Euer as its possessive


Third Person
Masculine Singular
Subject: He
Object: Hin
Indirect Object: Him
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself

Feminine Singular
Subject: Sie
Object: Her
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Herself

Neuter Singular
Subject: It
Object: It
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself

Plural
Subject: Sie
Object: Hin
Indirect Object: Him
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself
Reciprocal: Dieander



Vowel Reduction
-All single syllable pronouns pronounce their vowel as /ə/ when unstressed
-He, hin, him, her/Her, Hern, Hernander are often further reduced to 'e /ə/, 'in /ən/, 'im /əm/, 'er/'Er /ər/, 'Ern /ərn/, 'Ernander /ərˈnandər/ when not at the beginning of an utterance or after a vowel. All of these are written alone except after a verb where they are attached to it, except for 'ernander which is always detached.
-Before "is" (meaning is) me, dé, ju are usually just m', d', j'
-It can be further reduced to 't /t/ when after a verb/preposition not ending in -d or -t, after other pronouns including those ending in -self, when starting off a sentence and followed by a vowel or easy to pronounce consonant/consonant cluster, and some other situations. In the first two cases it's written attached to the word (unless it's after an already contracted pronoun) while in other cases it's written alone.
-Pronouns ending in -self and -ander are always stressed on the second syllable and pronounce the vowel in the first as /ə/
-Juander and dieander are often further simplified to j'ander /ˈjandər/ and d'ander /ˈdandər/
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 07 Dec 2018 23:11, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 23 Nov 2018 03:17

So this is an idea that I just came up with and was wondering what people thought of it. Given that vowels in unstressed syllables are sometimes reduced to /ə/, it makes since to be that we'd see this in terms suffixed to numbers like einmal /ˈɛɪ̯nməl/ (once) or tweifald /ˈtwɛɪ̯fəlt/ (twofold) and started thinking that I could extend this to include other nouns used partitively to create a class of counters such as:

Einflasche /ˈɛɪ̯nfləʃə/- A bottle of
Einglas /ˈɛɪ̯ngləs/- A glass of
Einmenge /ˈɛɪ̯nməŋə/- A crowd of
Einsack /ˈɛɪ̯nzək/- A sack/bag of
Einscheiv /ˈɛɪ̯nʃəf/- A slice of
Einstück /ˈɛɪ̯nstək/- A piece of
Eintass /ˈɛɪ̯ntəs/- A cup of


What do you guys think of this idea?

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Creyeditor » 23 Nov 2018 19:04

I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 26 Nov 2018 23:54

Creyeditor wrote:
23 Nov 2018 19:04
I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
Yeah I think I'm not going to include it. Maybe I'll reuse it for another language sometime

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 27 Nov 2018 00:36

Declensions of Borrowed Nouns
Just realized I forgot to discuss the declensions of loanwords. These words can be put into two groups: those from Latin & Greek and those from other languages

Latin & Greek Loans
Latin & Greek loans typically have far more restricted declensions than native nouns:
-In the dative singular, they never add -e, in the genitive they typically add the regular genitive endings, except when the noun already ends in -s in which case nothing is added (rather than the normal -es ending)
-In the nominative/accusative plural, the plural is typically the same as the one in Greek/Latin such as Stadium-Stadia or Casus-Casus
-In the dative plural, the noun may take an ending -n but for these nouns this is seen as optional. As these nouns are very rarely encountered in the dative plural, a lot of speakers don't know the rules to the dative plural formation and may simply opt to replace the ending with a regular -en dative plural ending

Some nouns borrowed from Latin/Greek take regular native plurals, despite maintaining their irregularities in the present such as Circus-Circusse. Others may simply take the plural -s borrowed from French and English. Some nouns may have 2 plurals: a Latin/Greek one used either formally/archaically and a native/French one that occurs more frequently. An example of this is the noun Thema (theme) which has both the plural Themas as well as the plural Themata.

Like in German, in older texts some nouns may be used with completely Latinate declensions, including using the ablative and vocative. In modern language, only three proper nouns are ever encountered in completely Latinate declension. Outside of religious usage, the only non-nominative forms still in use for these nouns are the vocative and genitive for both Jesus & Christus, although the use of these forms has been continually decreasing despite still being common. In modern speech all three of these nouns can take the modern genitive forms used for names.

Jesus- Jesus
Spoiler:
Nominative: Jesus
Accusative: Jesum
Dative: Jesu
Genitive: Jesu (modern form Jesus’)
Ablative: Jesu
Vocative: Jesu
Christus- Christ
Spoiler:
Nominative: Christus
Accusative: Christum
Dative: Christo
Genitive: Christi (modern form Christus’)
Ablative: Christo
Vocative: Christe
Maria- Mary
Spoiler:
Nominative: Maria
Accusative: Mariam
Dative: Mariä
Genitive: Mariä (modern form Marias)
Ablative: Maria
Vocative: Maria
Other Loans
Nouns borrowed from other languages typically maintain the same plural as the language of origin such as Cherub-Cherubim although if the plural is unknown to the speaker they may replace it with -s. Like Latin/Greek borrowings these nouns never take an ending in the dative singular, but unlike them they always take the proper ending in the genitive singular, and they never take an ending in the dative plural.

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Salmoneus » 27 Nov 2018 01:06

Creyeditor wrote:
23 Nov 2018 19:04
I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
Curious - it's the exact opposite of English (in that English stressed the noun there, destressing and dramatically reducing the numeral - ainaz flaskaz aba > @flAsk@. And I don't think we have a similar category of counters, either. (I guess we do do this with qualifiers - somebody, someone, something, etc).

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Creyeditor » 27 Nov 2018 21:01

Salmoneus wrote:
27 Nov 2018 01:06
Creyeditor wrote:
23 Nov 2018 19:04
I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
Curious - it's the exact opposite of English (in that English stressed the noun there, destressing and dramatically reducing the numeral - ainaz flaskaz aba > @flAsk@. And I don't think we have a similar category of counters, either. (I guess we do do this with qualifiers - somebody, someone, something, etc).
Oh, it's more generally an aversion against too much vowel reduction. The more vowel reduction you have in a Germanic language, the more it resembles Enlish, IMHO. Fusing several words into one increases the amount of reduced vowels.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Salmoneus » 27 Nov 2018 21:37

Creyeditor wrote:
27 Nov 2018 21:01
Salmoneus wrote:
27 Nov 2018 01:06
Creyeditor wrote:
23 Nov 2018 19:04
I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
Curious - it's the exact opposite of English (in that English stressed the noun there, destressing and dramatically reducing the numeral - ainaz flaskaz aba > @flAsk@. And I don't think we have a similar category of counters, either. (I guess we do do this with qualifiers - somebody, someone, something, etc).
Oh, it's more generally an aversion against too much vowel reduction. The more vowel reduction you have in a Germanic language, the more it resembles Enlish, IMHO. Fusing several words into one increases the amount of reduced vowels.
True, I guess - although to an English speaker, it makes it look German, because 'fusing several words into one' is such an indicator of Germanity. And Lapdeutsch already looks almost exactly like German...

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Creyeditor » 28 Nov 2018 14:15

Also true, though it looks more like Missingsch to me [;)]
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 30 Nov 2018 02:18

Creyeditor wrote:
28 Nov 2018 14:15
Also true, though it looks more like Missingsch to me [;)]
I had never actually heard of Missingsch! It definitely has some similarities with it and both are very much stigmatized to some degree. Now you've got me looking up Klein Erna jokes [xP]

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 04 Dec 2018 03:58

Feminine Agent Nouns Suffixes
In contrast to German which mostly just has the suffix -in, Lapdeutsch has a wide variety of suffixes used to create feminine agent nouns from masculine ones.

-er → -ster
By far the most common way to form the feminine form from the suffix -er
BäckerBäckster (baker)
SchreiverSchreivster (writer)

-er → -e
Not very commonly used. Right now I can only think of two words that uses it
DeutscherDeutsche (German)
Widwer (widower) → Widwe (widow)

-er → -vrou
Any umlauted stems remove their umlaut before this suffix. This -vrou is seen not as a suffix but as forming a compound word, and thus spelling changes involving long vowels aren't undertaken in writing. The plural form vrouen is very often pronounced as /frɔʊ̯n/ when used as a suffix but is never written as such. This suffix occurs in 3 different situations:

1. When forming the feminine form for demonyms ending in -er such as:
AmerikanerAmerikanvrou (American)
BerlinerBerlinvrou (Berliner)
ItaliënerItaliënvrou (Italian)
Nederländer (Dutchman) → Nederlandvrou (Dutchwoman)

2. When the stem ends in something that would be difficult to pronounce in succession with -st such as:
Fischer (fisherman) → Fischvrou (fisherwoman)
KünsterKunstvrou (artist)

3. The following 2 sets of words:
Bleiker (white man) → Bleikvrou (white woman)
Swarter (black man) → Swartvrou (black woman)

-sch→ -sche
This ending only occurs in demonyms where the masculine singular form ends in -sch.
PortugeeschPortugeesche (Portuguese)
Wäälsch (Dutchman pej)→ Wäälsche (Dutchwoman pej)

-→ -sche
This ending only occurs in demonyms that aren't either single syllable or end in -er/-sch. It comes from the feminine form of the adjective ending -sch. In contrast to the other endings which simply use the masculine plural for collective nouns, the collective plural for these nouns is formed from a hypothetical masculine plural -sche and differs from the plural of the masculine form.
Engelschmann (Englishman) → Engelsche (Englishwoman)
Franschmann (Frenchman) → Fransche (Frenchwoman)
NoorschmannNoorsche (Norwegian)
SpaanjerSpaansche (Spaniard)
UngaarUngaarsche (Hungarian)
Welschmann (Welshman) → Welsche (Welshwoman)


-mann → -vrou
All words ending in -mann form their feminine with -vrou
Brandweermann (fireman) → Brandweervrou (female firefighter)

- → -vrou
Occasionally, the -vrou ending is simply added to the masculine form. It's often used to refer to the wife of the masculine form but not always
Fischer (fisherman) → Fischervrou (fisherman's wife)
JägerJägervrou (hunter)

- → -e
Another fairly rare ending
MatrosMatrose (sailor)
IngenieurIngenieure (engineer)

- → -ess
Not particularly common but used with some common words. This ending is always stressed.
AfgodAfgoddess (idol)
DichterDichtress (poet)
LererLereress (teacher)
Meister (master) → Meistress (mistress)
MörderMördress (murderer)
Prins (prince) → Prinsess (princess)

-/-er → -igge
Another rare suffix. Pretty much exclusively used for rural related vocab
HerderHerdigge (shepherd)
Melker (milker) → Melkigge (milkmaid)

-us/-o → -a
Often used for terms borrowed from Latin and Romance languages
MedicusMedica (medic)
LenoLena (whore)

-eur → -euse
Essentially exclusively used for words from French. Some words ending in -teur fall into this pattern rather than the one below
DompteurDompteuse (animal trainer)
Masseur (masseur) → Masseuse (masseuse)
RegisseurRegisseuse (director)

-tor/-teur → -trits
Acteur (actor) → Actrits (actress)
AutorAutrits (author)
SenatorSenatrits (senator)

- → -̈in
Used for most single syllable words including demonyms
ArtsÄrtsin (doctor)
DänDänin (Dane)
FreundFreundin (friend)
God (god) → Göddin (goddess)
Held (hero) → Heldin (heroine)
KokKökin (cook)
TürkTürkin (Turk)

Irregular
Some feminine forms are irregular and have to be memorized such as a following
Abt (abbot) → Äbtiss (Abbess)
Brüdegem (bridegroom) → Brud (bride)
ImkerImmenvrou (beekeeper)
SingerSangvrou (singer)
SükplegerSüksuster (nurse)
Tovermann (wizard/warlock) → Tüsche (witch)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 17 Dec 2018 03:04, edited 12 times in total.

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Creyeditor » 04 Dec 2018 10:18

All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Dec 2018 03:58
Feminine Agent Nouns Suffixes
[...]
-er → -ster
By far the most common way to form the feminine form from the suffix -er
BäckerBäckster (baker)
SchreiverSchreivster (writer)
I think I heard of all of these in either German or Low German, except the -st- suffix. What was the inspiration? English? French? Dutch? I'm a bit lost.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Salmoneus » 05 Dec 2018 01:40

Creyeditor wrote:
04 Dec 2018 10:18
All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Dec 2018 03:58
Feminine Agent Nouns Suffixes
[...]
-er → -ster
By far the most common way to form the feminine form from the suffix -er
BäckerBäckster (baker)
SchreiverSchreivster (writer)
I think I heard of all of these in either German or Low German, except the -st- suffix. What was the inspiration? English? French? Dutch? I'm a bit lost.
-ster is a general Germanic feminine agent suffix. In English, it's become unisex (barrister, teamster, gangster, trickster, dumpster, etc), but in Dutch the original -er/-ster male/female alternation has been retained, as in Lapdeutsch.

Wiktionary offers PGmc -istrijo:n or -astrijo:n. The former is probably earlier, as it comes from PIE -is (feminine suffix) + -ter (agent suffix), but the latter seems to be needed for Old High German, which had -astria. However, there may be a PIE complication there, as some of the -i suffixes (I know -i2, and iirc also -is and maybe also -iks) originally had ablaut variations (-i2 vs -ye2), which may be the origin of the form preserved in OHG?

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 06 Dec 2018 07:21

Salmoneus wrote:
05 Dec 2018 01:40
Creyeditor wrote:
04 Dec 2018 10:18
All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Dec 2018 03:58
Feminine Agent Nouns Suffixes
[...]
-er → -ster
By far the most common way to form the feminine form from the suffix -er
BäckerBäckster (baker)
SchreiverSchreivster (writer)
I think I heard of all of these in either German or Low German, except the -st- suffix. What was the inspiration? English? French? Dutch? I'm a bit lost.
-ster is a general Germanic feminine agent suffix. In English, it's become unisex (barrister, teamster, gangster, trickster, dumpster, etc), but in Dutch the original -er/-ster male/female alternation has been retained, as in Lapdeutsch.

Wiktionary offers PGmc -istrijo:n or -astrijo:n. The former is probably earlier, as it comes from PIE -is (feminine suffix) + -ter (agent suffix), but the latter seems to be needed for Old High German, which had -astria. However, there may be a PIE complication there, as some of the -i suffixes (I know -i2, and iirc also -is and maybe also -iks) originally had ablaut variations (-i2 vs -ye2), which may be the origin of the form preserved in OHG?
[+1] I’ll also add that according to Wiktionary the -ster suffix was present in Old Low German

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Creyeditor » 06 Dec 2018 08:11

Salmoneus wrote:
05 Dec 2018 01:40
Creyeditor wrote:
04 Dec 2018 10:18
All4Ɇn wrote:
04 Dec 2018 03:58
Feminine Agent Nouns Suffixes
[...]
-er → -ster
By far the most common way to form the feminine form from the suffix -er
BäckerBäckster (baker)
SchreiverSchreivster (writer)
I think I heard of all of these in either German or Low German, except the -st- suffix. What was the inspiration? English? French? Dutch? I'm a bit lost.
-ster is a general Germanic feminine agent suffix. In English, it's become unisex (barrister, teamster, gangster, trickster, dumpster, etc), but in Dutch the original -er/-ster male/female alternation has been retained, as in Lapdeutsch.

Wiktionary offers PGmc -istrijo:n or -astrijo:n. The former is probably earlier, as it comes from PIE -is (feminine suffix) + -ter (agent suffix), but the latter seems to be needed for Old High German, which had -astria. However, there may be a PIE complication there, as some of the -i suffixes (I know -i2, and iirc also -is and maybe also -iks) originally had ablaut variations (-i2 vs -ye2), which may be the origin of the form preserved in OHG?
Wow, I didn't know about these. Thank you two [:)]
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » 07 Dec 2018 20:06

Creyeditor wrote:
06 Dec 2018 08:11
Wow, I didn't know about these. Thank you two [:)]
No problem [:)]. I'm curious though. You said you thought you had seen all of the other suffixes used in either German or Low German. Where have you seen Frau/Fro used as a suffix to create the feminine from the masculine? I thought it was something I thought of and am surprised to hear it might actually already be present. Obviously there are words like Putzfrau which use the -frau to mark the feminine, but I haven't heard of it being used in ways similar to how Lapdeutsch does it before.

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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Salmoneus » 07 Dec 2018 21:41

Well, old-fashioned English used -wife as a feminising suffix a lot. In particular, your use pairing -mann and -frou is mirrored in English: a man who works with or sells fish is a fishman (among other things), while a woman who works with or sells fish is a fishwife. Likewise aleman/alewife, oyster man/oyster wife, and more generally goodman (male head of household) vs goodwife (female head of household). Other examples used to be in use, but are now even more archaic than these ones.

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