An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

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An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 20 Jan 2019 18:31

I'd like to try to make an Oghur Turkic conlang set in somewhere in Carpathian Basin, after being inspired by Pelsodian, Panuski and Cissian, etc. The language's name has not been determined yet, and the location is probably Szeklerland plus Csango region in Moldavia. The people's autonym might be a color/numeral plus "oghur", and has a Catholic majority and Calvinist minority; as in the universe of Pelsodian-Panuski and Cissian, the Hungarian language and culture is not "replaced" completely.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Ælfwine » 20 Jan 2019 20:29

I'm very much honored to be a source of inspiration, and I hope to see more of this, definitely.

You do have some work to do, though, as the ultimate language spoken by the "ethnic" Avars is unknown, and it is likely that the lingua franca spoken by the Avars was Proto-Slavic even before their arrival in the Carpathian Basin. HOWEVER, because the Basin was such a melting pot, you could establish some sort of Turkic continuity between the Huns, Avars, and perhaps later on the Ottomans. The Slavic element may have to be reduced in this alt-history, although its not impossible if you hide your Turks in the mountains like the Vlachs...

To get rid of the Magyars, perhaps keeping them in Khazaria might be prudent.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Ælfwine » 20 Jan 2019 20:53

My Blog
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by WeepingElf » 20 Jan 2019 22:11

Surely, this is an interesting lostlang idea!
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 21 Jan 2019 03:34

According to Eugene Helimski (see http://www.nytud.hu/nyk/100/helimski.pdf):
Onogur Sprachbund

I am possibly – not necessarily – the first one to introduce this notion, but its postulation follows directly from the numerous linguistic and historical studies on Pre-Conquest Hungarians (see especially the works by Julius Németh, Lajos Ligeti, András Róna-Tas). There is ample evidence to suppose the existence in the second half of the first millennium AD in Pontic-Caspian steppes, later in the (eastern part of the) Carpathian basin, of a unity comprising the languages of the Magyars and of Bulgar Turks (Onogurs, the name of which has been inherited by the Hungarians). The participation of other steppe nomads – for example, of zome Alan and Avar groups – cannot be excluded (cf. Абаев 1965). For obvious
reasons the traces of this Sprachbund can be found only in its single survivor, the Hungarian language. Here these traces, starting with the l a b i a l v o w e l h a r m o n y , are abundantly present (cf. e.g. Bereczki 1998: 207–216), though it is not always easy to distinguish them from the heritage of both earlier and later Magyar-Alan and Magyar-Turkic contacts.
My goal is to try to create a conlang within this sprachbund. This is probably not a collablang, but multiple choice questions will be asked.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Vlürch » 21 Jan 2019 12:48

Definitely a cool idea. Whatever it ends up being like, it'll probably be interesting.

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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 22 Jan 2019 04:22

I forgot to mention Dravean, which is also a Pannonian Romlang.
Some preliminary sound changes, inspired by Hungarian sound changes and Bulgar/Chuvash ones:
t d s n > c ɟ ʃ ɲ/ _{i,j}
k ɡ > χ ɢ > h ɦ / _{+back} # g never seems to occur word-initially before a back vowel
p t c k tʃ > b d ɟ ɡ~ɢ dʒ > β ð ʝ ɣ~ɦ ʒ > v z j ɦ~h ʒ / V_V # ɦ is the intervocalic allophone of h
b d ɟ ɡ > β ɾ ʝ ɣ~ʁ > v r j v~j~0 / V_
some b > p > f /#_

i y u ɯ > ɪ ʏ ʊ ɤ
iː yː uː ɯː > i y u ɯ
ɤ > ɪ/_{t,d,s,z,n}; ɯ / _{C{j,+high},+palatal,+alveopalatal}; a / _Ca(ː); ʊ otherwise
a e o ø > ɑ ɛ ɔ œ
aː eː oː øː > a(partially) e o ø
ɪj(ɪ) ʊ{v,ɣ})(ʊ) ʏ{v,j}(ʏ) > iː uː yː
ɪv > yː
ɪ ʏ ʊ ɤ > e ø o ə
mp nt ŋk ntʃ > mb nd ŋɡ ɲɟ > b d ɡ ɟ
ɣ > v / _{+round}; j / _{-round, +front}
Vɣ > Vː
Cː > C
{m,ŋ} > n /_t
k > 0 / {r,l}_

ɯ > i
ɔ œ ø > va vɛ ve/ #_
{e,ɛ}v {ɑ,o}v > øː oː
{u}v {y}v > uː yː
{ɑ,ɔ} > ɒ (short only)
j > dʒ > ʒ / #_
kj > j / #_
bj > ɟ
œ > ɛ
Ø > ɡ / ŋ_
nl > ɲː
Last edited by Zythros Jubi on 08 Feb 2019 17:20, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Birdlang » 24 Jan 2019 01:22

What do you think the romanization is going to be like? Similar to Hungarian or Turkish?
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 24 Jan 2019 05:24

I suppose they are isolated and use OTL's Hungarian runes up to modern age, thus accurate romanization can be a later invention like modern Romanian orthography, but certainly before Turkish was romanized; perhaps Slavic elements like in Czech/Croatian orthography can be used.

Moreover, I need to ponder on its history: now I seem to consider coexisting with a Pannonian kingdom with a Slavic majority and a Romance minority, so to what extent Hungary is shrunken in this scenarion is a question. Western Slovakia/Nitra and Pannonia may have become part of Holy Roman Empire; even Buda and Pest may belong to different countries. From wikipedia article "History of Transylvania":
I.A. Pop confirmed battles between Romanians and Hungarian tribes in the Primary Chronicle.[26] Conflicting theories exist concerning whether or not the Romanized Dacian population (the ancestors of the Romanians) remained in Transylvania after the withdrawal of the Romans (and whether or not Romanians were in Transylvania during the Migration Period, particularly during the Magyar migration). These theories are often used to back competing claims by Hungarian and Romanian nationalists.

The historian Kurt Horedt dates the entering of the Hungarians in Transylvania in the period between the 10th century and the 13th century. In his theory, the Hungarians conquered Transylvania in five stages:

1st stage – around year 900, until Someșul Mic river
2nd stage – around year 1000, Someșul Mic valley and the middle and lower course of Mureș river
3rd stage – around year 1100, until Târnava Mare river
4th stage – around year 1150, until the Olt River line
5th stage – around year 1200, until the Carpathian Mountains[27]
Image

Judging from the similarity between Szekely and Western Hungarian dialects, there is a hypothesis that Szekelys were border guards who moved east after 12th century; however, what people was there before remains unknown.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Ælfwine » 25 Jan 2019 00:05

I kept the Hungarians to the east of the Danube, you might want to do the same. It is the Danube that was the major geographical obstacle for most armies in our timeline, and that is also where the Romans put the līmitēs.

To the east of that, the eastern extent of the Hungarians could probably be the Carpathian mountains themselves, but if you want you could probably fit your turks in between their Xth century occupation and XIIth century one.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 25 Jan 2019 18:04

The argument is whether Romanians were descendants of Roman Dacians or later immigrants, which determines the layers and proportion of Latin/Romance loans in the conlang.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 29 Jan 2019 17:56

Some vocabulary:
PT Gloss Middle Carpathian Modern Carpathian Meaning
*siarɨg yellow; white ʃaːrɯː ʃariː yellow
*siŋök bone ʃeɡœk ʃøɡɛk
*ɨsɨg / *isig hot; warm eʃiː jeʃiː hot
*sirke nit ʃerkɛ ʃerkɛ
*siaŕ marsh; dirt ʃɑr ʃɔr dirt
*sīk urine; to urinate ʃiːk, ʃiːk-l- ʃik, ʃik-t- urine; to urinate
*siāpan straw; thorn ʃaːβɑn ʃaːvɔn thorn
*sialɨk a k. of squirrel, chipmunk ʃɑləq ʃɔlok squirrel
*siŋir sinew ʃeɡer ʃeɡer
*siŋil younger sister/brother ʃeɡlem ʃeɡlem y. brother
*siāk- 1 to think, contemplate, worry 2 to miss 3 intelligence 4 thought, worry 5 to read 6 to remember 7 mourning, sad remembrance ʃaːɣən- ʃaːvon- to mourn
*siat-ga- 1 to oppress, ill-treat 2 to be ill-treated 3 to rave, be confused ʃɑtkɑl- ʃɔtɔl- to oppress
*sīb-ri sharp ʃiːver ʃiver
*sipür- to sweep ʃeβør- ʃøvør-
*sib- (*süb-) 1 to spin (thread) 2 to pull out fibre 3 thread, fibre ʃeβ-em ʃevem thread, fibre
*sirke vinegar ʃerɛk ʃerɛk bitter
*simü- / *sümü- to suck, swallow ʃømø- ʃømø- to sip
*siāĺ- 1 wild 2 to be astonished 3 to slander ʃaːl- ʃaːl- to astonish
*s[ɨ]ŋar ( < *s(i)an-gar) one of a pair, one of two sides ʃɑɡɑr ʃɔɡɔr side
*sīl- / *sɨ̄la- 1 to wipe, rub 2 clean ʃiːl- ʃil- to wipe, rub
*siāń- (~-j-) 1 poor, distressed 2 to be distressed, anxious, fearful 3 to squander 4 to pain, be sore (of a foot) 5 distress 6 beggar ʃaːɲ- ʃaːɲ- to be anxious
*silk- to shake ʃelk- ʃelk-
*siaka knucklebone ʃɑɣɑ ʃɔvɔ
*simük, *simki- 1 snot, nose phlegm, mucus 2 to blow one's nose ʃemɡør- ʃømɡør- to blow one's nose
*sīĺč- 1 to swell 2 swelling, tumour ʃiːʃ ʃiʃ tumour
*siŋ- to sink, submerge ʃeɡ- ʃeɡ-
*siāč 1 white copper, tin 2 pan ʃaːtʃ ʃaːtʃ tin
*siŋek 1 mosquito 2 fly ʃeɡɛk ʃeɡɛk fly
*sīpek 1 infant's urinal in a cradle 2 pivot (of a hand-mill etc.) 3 corn-cob ʃiːmɛk ʃimɛk pivot (of a hand-mill etc.)
*sil- 1 spittle, saliva 2 slime ʃelek ʃelek saliva
*sinčök ( ~ -e-) 1 ankle-bone 2 shin-bone ʃeɟœk ʃøɟɛk shin-bone
*siŋ- (~ -ɨ-) 1 whining or buzzing noise 2 to whine, moan ʃeɡer, ʃeɡerdɛ- ʃeɡer, ʃeɡerdɛ- 1;2
*Kiān blood jaːn jaːn
*Kiār- to mix jaːr- jaːr- to stir
*K(i)aja 1 rock 2 mountain 3 slope jɑjɑ jɔjɔ rock
*K(i)amak / *K(i)apak 1 forehead 2 front part 3 eyelid 4 eyebrow jɑbɑq (<-mp-) jɔbɔk precipice, cleft
*Kiaŕɨ inner fat jɑrɯ jɔri
*Kiār snow jaːr jaːr
*Kiam 1 shaman 2 to shamanize, come into movement jɑmsɑ jɔmsɔ shaman > initiator
*Kiab tree fungus; dry grass jɑw joː tree fungus
*Kiāl- to stay behind, remain jaːl- jaːl-
*K(i)āĺ eyebrow; edge, bank; saddle bow xaːl haːl bank, riverside
*K(i)arba- 1 to grope (for smth.) 2 to grasp (with hands or teeth) 3 to swim (grope through water with hands and feet) 4 to rake up jɑrbɑ- jɔrbɔ- to grasp > to understand
*K(i)alɨ- 1 sky 2 to clear up (of sky) jɑlə- jɔlo- to clear up
*K(i)aĺ- 1 lazy, vile (in addressing a slave) 2 lazy, stubborn xɑlən hɔlon lazy person
*K(i)aŋ 1 vehicle, cart 2 skis, sleigh jɑɡnɑ jɔɡnɔ cart
*Kias- 1 horrible, terrible 2 to annoy 3 to become wasted, lose 4 vindictive 5 inimical jɑs- jɔs- to become exhausted
*dīŕ (*dǖŕ) knee ɟiːr ɟir
*diāĺ stone ɟaːl ɟaːl
*dɨl / *dil tongue; language dəl del; delek tongue; language
*dɨŋla- / *diŋle- 1 to listen 2 to hear 3 to consider, meditate ɟeɡlɛ- ɟeɡlɛ- 3
*diĺi 1 female 2 woman ɟele ɟele female (animal)
*dīre- 1 to support 2 support ɟiːrɛ-, ɟiːrɛk ɟirɛ-, ɟirɛk 1,2
*dik- 1 to plant vertically 2 vertical ɟek- ɟek- to build
*büdi- 1 to dance 2 to jib 3 dance bøɟe- bøɟe- 1
*dil- to split, cut in slices ɟel- ɟel-
*diŕ- 1 to bead, string 2 arrange in a row ɟer- ɟer- 2; to sort
*kendir (*kentir) hemp kɛɟer kɛɟer
*bẹldir cross-roads, separation of two roads or rivers bilɟer bilɟer confluence; estuary
*KEdir- 1 to skin (a sheep) 2 to scrape on a washboard (while washing) kɛðer kɛrer 2
*d(i)akɨ 1 additionally, and others, plus 2 again, once more ɟɑɣɯ ɟoː again
*kidiŕ felt keðer keːr

These roots are collected from starling.net.ru, i.e. Sergey Starostin's Proto-Turkic database.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Shemtov » 29 Jan 2019 18:06

I find this interesting, because at the same time, I am doing an r-Turkic language, Khazar.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 31 Jan 2019 11:50

Phonology:ː
/i iː y yː u uː/
/e eː ø øː o oː/
/ɛ ɔ~ɒ/
/a aː/

/p b m f v/
/t d n l r/
/ts s z/
/tʃ ʃ ʒ/
/c ɟ ɲ j/
/k ɡ x~h~ɦ/


Note:
1. /x/ is [h] word-initially, and [ɦ] intervocalically; [x] otherwise.
2. /n/ is [ŋ] before /k ɡ x/.
3. Orthography convention is not determined yet; I'm hesitating between Hungarian, Czechoslovak and Romanian styles, given the relatively late standardization of romanization. /s/ is more frequent than /ʃ/, of course.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Birdlang » 31 Jan 2019 13:30

Zythros Jubi wrote:
31 Jan 2019 11:50
Phonology:ː
/i iː y yː u uː/
/e eː ø øː o oː/
/ɛ ɔ~ɒ/
/a aː/

/p b m f v/
/t d n l r/
/ts s z/
/tʃ ʃ ʒ/
/c ɟ ɲ j/
/k ɡ x~h~ɦ/


Note:
1. /x/ is [h] word-initially, and [ɦ] intervocalically; [x] otherwise.
2. /n/ is [ŋ] before /k ɡ x/.
3. Orthography convention is not determined yet; I'm hesitating between Hungarian, Czechoslovak and Romanian styles, given the relatively late standardization of romanization. /s/ is more frequent than /ʃ/, of course.
For orthography, why not a mix of all 3?
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Tristan Radicz » 31 Jan 2019 15:24

This is entirely subjective and probably informed by unconscious stereotypes, but I always find it odd when Czech-style diacritics are applied in the orthographic systems of non-Slavic (or non-Baltic) languages. It's a rather elegant and economic system, but it just doesn't "click" for me aesthetically in a Turkic language. IMO, the Hungarian standard would work very well in this case (with reversal of <s> and <sz>, of course).

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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 31 Jan 2019 19:23

I'm not sure how come Hungarian orthography uses <s sz> for /S s/; presently I use <cy sy zy> for /tS S Z/ as in Hungarian historical spelling used in names, and <cz> for /ts/ as in Hungarian before 1920; <dy> is used instead of <gy>. Long vowels are indicated by doubling, as it was sometimes in Hungarian.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Tristan Radicz » 31 Jan 2019 19:53

Zythros Jubi wrote:
31 Jan 2019 19:23
I'm not sure how come Hungarian orthography uses <s sz> for /S s/; presently I use <cy sy zy> for /tS S Z/ as in Hungarian historical spelling used in names, and <cz> for /ts/ as in Hungarian before 1920; <dy> is used instead of <gy>. Long vowels are indicated by doubling, as it was sometimes in Hungarian.
This is also feasible, <dy> is an especially good touch.

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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 01 Feb 2019 08:27

Sorry for being mistaken, but curiously <sy> represents /s/ in Old Hungarian.
/i iː y yː u uː/ i ii ü üü u uu
/e eː ø øː o oː/ ê ee ö öö o oo
/ɛ ɔ~ɒ/ e a
/a aː/ ä aa

/p b m f v/ p b m f v
/t d n l r/ t d n l r
/ts s z/ cz s z
/tʃ ʃ ʒ/ ch sc zy
/c ɟ ɲ j/ ty dy ny j
/k ɡ x~h~ɦ/ k g h

Numbers:
1 bêr 2 iki 3 vêch 4 dört 5 bilêk 6 alti 7 zyityi 8 sekêr 9 takor 10 on 11 on iki
20 zyiirmi 30 vazor 40 herk 50 illii 60 artvol 70 zyitvel 80 sekren 90 takran 100 zyür 1000 harza (Iranian borrowing)
Last edited by Zythros Jubi on 08 Feb 2019 17:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An r-Turkic conlang in eastern Hungary/Transylvania?

Post by Zythros Jubi » 04 Feb 2019 16:18

Vowel harmony
Front vowels are e ö ü ee öö üü; back vowels are a o u ä aa oo uu; neutral vowels are ê i ii. Common corresponding pairs are: a-e o-ö/ê u-ü ä-ê.
Concerning roundedness, only historical high vowels are operative, i.e. ê-o-ö and i-u-ü for front unrounded - back rounded - front rounded; the back unrounded equivalent are usually o and i respectively.

Nominal declension

I. Nouns
1. Back vowel harmony with consonant ending
varman 'forest'
Singular Plural
Nom. varman varmanar
Acc. varmanni varmanarni
Gen. varmanon varmanaron
Dat. varmana vamanara
Abl. varmandan varmanardan
Loc. varmanda varmanarda
Com. (comitative) varmanban varmanarban

Possessive forms:
Singular Plural
1sg. varmanom varmanomar
1pl. varmanovor varmanovrar
2sg. varmanon varmanonar
2pl. varmanor varmanorar
3 varmani varmanisar

t-stem
bolot 'cloud'
Singular Plural
Nom. bolot bolzar
Acc. bolzi bolzari
Gen. bolzon bolzaron
Dat. bolza bolzara
Abl. bolottan bolzardan
Loc. bolotta bolzarda
Com. bolotpan bolzarban

Possessive forms:
Singular Plural
1sg. bolzom bolzomar
1pl. bolzovor bolzovrar
2sg. bolzon bolzogar
2pl. bolzor bolzorar
3 bolzi bolzisar

k-stem (-VCk)
bälok 'fish'
Singular Plural
Nom. bälok bällar
Acc. bälli bällari
Gen. bällon bällaron
Dat. bälla bällara
Abl. bäloktan bällardan
Loc. bälokta bällarda
Com. bälokpan bällarban

Possessive forms:
Singular Plural
1sg. bällom bällomar
1pl. bällovor bällovrar
2sg. bällon bällogar
2pl. bällor bällorar
3 bälli bällisar

arak 'foot'
Nom. arak arahar

ch-stem

aach 'tree'
Singular Plural
Nom. aach aazyar
Acc. aazyi aazyari
Gen. aazyon aazyaron
Dat. aazya aazyara
Abl. aachtan aazyardan
Loc. aachta aazyarda
Com. aachpan aazyarban

Possessive forms:
Singular Plural
1sg. aazyom aazyomar
1pl. aazyovor aazyovrar
2sg. aazyon aazyogar
2pl. aazyor aazyorar
3 aazyi aazyisar

2. Back VH with vowel ending

alma 'apple'
Singular Plural
Nom. alma almaar
Acc. almani almaari
Gen. alman almaaron
Dat. almana almaara
Abl. almaran almaardan
Loc. almara almaarda
Com. almaban almaarban

Possessive forms:
Singular Plural
1sg. almam almamar
1pl. almavor almavrar
2sg. alman almagar
2pl. almanor almanorar
3 almaj almajar

tyaaki 'chicken'
Singular Plural
Nom. tyaaki tyaakiir
Acc. tyaakoni tyaakiiri
Gen. tyaakiin tyaakiiron
Dat. tyaakona tyaakiira
Abl. tyaakoran tyaakiirdan
Loc. tyaakora tyaakiirda
Com. tyaakiban tyaakiirban
*This case evolved from a postposition *bilen, so it was exempted from vowel reduction.

Possessive forms:
Singular Plural
1sg. tyaakim tyaakimar
1pl. tyaakivor tyaakivrar
2sg. tyaakin tyaakinar
2pl. tyaakir tyaakirar
3 tyaakii tyaakaar
Last edited by Zythros Jubi on 16 Feb 2019 16:34, edited 4 times in total.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

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