Goþesch Razde

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Dormouse559
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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Dormouse559 » 27 Jun 2019 18:44

Zekoslav wrote:
27 Jun 2019 17:43
Overall it looks nice, personally the <dede> sequence looks a bit repetitive, <budedeþ> in particular is quite a tongue twister!
So Gothish speakers get to have as much fun as I do when I say, "I edited it". [}:D] Like in that phrase, I'm guessing the tongue-twister-ishness is a quirk of the example verb.

Ælfwine wrote:
26 Jun 2019 20:55
Besides that, the verb grade is rather archaic, preserving the full PIE vowel alternations inherited from PGmc.
Vowel gradation ftw!

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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Ælfwine » 27 Jun 2019 19:28

Guden dach!
Omzinesý wrote:
27 Jun 2019 14:52
Have you now introduced rounded front vowels into your lang or is this some descendant of what you developed the first?
It would be simpler if you make another thread and just cross-link it with this one, if they are two langs.
I am playing around with front rounded vowels still. I included them here because they nicely preserve the ablaut in the Class IIa verbs. However some dialects may have unrounded them, I think given the timespan of 1800 years and Crimea's rather rugged geography there would be quite a few Crimean Gothic dialects. I didn't think the changes were enough to warrant another thread.

Perhaps what you are seeing here is "Early Modern" Gothish, which is quite similar to Busbecq's Crimean Gothic, and additional changes I introduce will be the more modern Gothish language.
Yeah, I mean that's what I would do in that situation. Although maybe just in the past tense? That seems more likely to get regularized.

I think this looks great. I especially like the leveling of the first person, present indicative to the vowel of the second and third persons. Gives the whole paradigm a nice singular/plural contrast taht could be retained even in more inflectional endings are lost.
Thanks for the compliment!

You are correct, that is what I have so far found in other paradigms, such as Class V verbs. In fact, I had just gotten done working on Class V verbs. The regular e: > i: change nicely distinguishes the subjunctive from the indicative here:
Spoiler:
Full Strong II Class Verb Conjugation, from PGmc *lisaną "to gather"
Infinitive: lesen [ˈleːsən]
Present Participle: lesents
Past Participle: lesens

Present Tense:
Indicative:
1st S: lese
2nd S: lises
3rd S: liset
1st P: lesems
2nd P: liseþ
3rd P: lesent

Subjunctive:
1st S: las
2nd S: last
3rd S: las
1st P: lisem
2nd P: liseþ
3rd P: lisen

Past Tense:
Indicative:
1st S: lesede
2nd S: lesedes
3rd S: lesede
1st P: lesedem
2nd P: lesedeþ
3rd P: leseden

Subjunctive:
1st S: lisede
2nd S: lisedes
3rd S: lisede
1st P: lisedem
2nd P: lisedeþ
3rd P: liseden
Now I could even go further and regularize the indicative to always have the vowel /e/ (as it does in the past tense) to the present tense). Tell me what you think.
Zekoslav wrote:
27 Jun 2019 17:43
Overall it looks nice, personally the <dede> sequence looks a bit repetitive, <budedeþ> in particular is quite a tongue twister!

Other than that, I got two questions:

1. Did you mean that the past participle got an extra -t on analogy with the present participle, and not the other way around (as you've written), since that's what your examples seem to show?

2. How did the 3. sg. ending get a different consonant from the 2. pl. ending?
You are right, it is quite a tongue twister, and I suspect schwa will be syncoped in casual speach, so that the form lisede becomes liste (and in fact this was raised by one scholar as a likely source for the Crimean Gothic word lista meaning "little," although in my mind a connection with English "least" or Gothic "leitils" is more likely.)

To answer your questions:

1. Yes that is my mistake, however I reversed this change after seeing that it merges the two in other paradigms.

2. Two totally separate sound changes:

ð > d / V_V (c.f. "bruder")

and

b β d ð z g ɣ > p f t θ s k x / _#

Hence why you get liset as the third person singular, but liseþ in the second person plural.

(Although it should be noted that the actual corpus suggests Crimean Gothic merged /θ/ and /t/ in these positions, e.g. plut, alt. Furthermore, -t may drop in analogy with the 3rd person of other forms, like in the subjunctive.)
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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Ælfwine » 04 Jul 2019 05:01

I'm somewhat tempted to split this project into two: one thread for "Crimean Gothic," which is my reconstruction of the language of the same name, another one for "Gothish" which is less of a reconstruction and more of a real "conlang." I want to do something with all those Cj clusters dangnabbit.

Rant time:

I have also always found it odd that for a language with centuries of isolation, it is not quite different from Low German (and even in several reports has been described as being mutually intelligible with them). Even Vilamovian shows greater divergence and less mutual intelligibility. What gives? Perhaps Busbecq introduced too much Flemish and German vocab and distortions, or perhaps the mutual intelligibility with low german was exaggerated. Nonetheless I am slowly being convinced of the idea that Crim Goth was a west germanic dialect as opposed to an east germanic one.
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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Creyeditor » 04 Jul 2019 20:11

Ælfwine wrote:
04 Jul 2019 05:01
I'm somewhat tempted to split this project into two: one thread for "Crimean Gothic," which is my reconstruction of the language of the same name, another one for "Gothish" which is less of a reconstruction and more of a real "conlang." I want to do something with all those Cj clusters dangnabbit.

Rant time:

I have also always found it odd that for a language with centuries of isolation, it is not quite different from Low German (and even in several reports has been described as being mutually intelligible with them). Even Vilamovian shows greater divergence and less mutual intelligibility. What gives? Perhaps Busbecq introduced too much Flemish and German vocab and distortions, or perhaps the mutual intelligibility with low german was exaggerated. Nonetheless I am slowly being convinced of the idea that Crim Goth was a west germanic dialect as opposed to an east germanic one.
I read somewhere that the Low German-like dialect and Crim Gothic where actually two independent languages, but other people in that area didn't really distinguish it (It's all Germanic to me ;) ). This needs the assumption that there was some Low German immigation into that area. But if so, people might be actually talking about two different languages and Crim Gothic might have been very different from Low German.
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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Ælfwine » 13 Jul 2019 07:14

Counting! Janko, where are you when I need you?

I had a lot of fun with this. Crimean Gothic numbers are quite unusual and point to strong Turkish and/or Iranian influence on their construction. Compare for example Turkish onbir (ten-one) = eleven; oniki (ten-two) = twelve; etc.

ите ite [ˈi.tə] one
туе tue [ˈtʰu.ə] two
дрие drie [ˈd̥ri.ə] three
фидер fider [ˈfi.dər] four
финф finf [ˈfinf] five
сес ses [ˈseːs] six
севене sevene [ˈse.və.nə] seven
атте atte [ˈat.tʰə] eight
нине nine [ˈniːnə] nine
тине tine [ˈtʰiːnə] ten

тините tinite [ˈtʰiː.ni.tʰə] eleven
тинетуе tinetue [ˈtʰiː.nəˌtʰu.ə] twelve
тинедрие tinedrie [ˈtʰiː.nəˌd̻ri.ə] thirteen
тинефидер tinefider [ˈtʰiː.nəˌfi.dər] fourteen
тинефинф tinefinf [ˈtʰiː.nəˌfinf] fifteen
тинесес tineses [ˈtʰiː.nəˌseːs] sixteen
тинесевене tinesevene [ˈtʰiː.nəˌse.və.nə] seventeen
тинатте tinatte [ˈtʰiː.nˌat.tʰə] eighteen
тиненине tinenine [ˈtʰiː.nəˌniː.nə] nineteen
щеге schtege [ˈʃte.ɣə] twenty
(etc.)
дритине dritine [ˈd̥riˌtʰiː.nə] (dialectally: driten [ˈd̥ri.tn̩]) thirty
(etc.)
фидертине fidertine [ˈfi.dərˌtʰiː.nə] (dialectally: fiderten [ˈfi.dər.tn̩]) fourty
(etc.)
финфтине finftine [ˈfinfˌtʰiː.nə] ([ˈfinf.tn̩) fifty
(etc.)
саде sade [ˈsa.də] (NB from Iranian Alan) hundred
хазер chazer [ˈxa.zər] (also from Iranian) thousand
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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Zekoslav » 13 Jul 2019 13:27

I like this system a lot. I've always liked number systems radically reshaped by contact with unrelated languages and thus different from the number systems of related languages (hello Romanian!).
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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Herra Ratatoskr » 14 Jul 2019 05:27

Neat. Do the cognates of eleven and twelve still exist in any sense in the language, like if say twelve became "a dozen", or something like that? Maybe with some semantic drift over the centuries?

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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Ælfwine » 14 Jul 2019 17:54

Herra Ratatoskr wrote:
14 Jul 2019 05:27
Neat. Do the cognates of eleven and twelve still exist in any sense in the language, like if say twelve became "a dozen", or something like that? Maybe with some semantic drift over the centuries?
The only word for twelve other than tinetue is "duzene," ['tu.zə.nə] which is a fairly ubiquitous loanword itself.

Now I could reconstruct something from proto germanic following Old Norse tylft, but I'd need an etymology.
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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Ælfwine » 18 Jul 2019 20:32

Ultimately with the strong verbs I decided to merge the subjunctive with the infinitive. The only exception is a handful of auxiliary verbs like wart "to be." This doesn't change much, except that I decided against the importation of the weak preterite endings into strong verbs, as most of them now preserve some difference via ablaut.

You can look at the strong verbs on my wiki.

Like in every other Germanic language, weak verbs are the only productive verbs in Crimean Gothic. They form their preterites in -еде -ede. In most verbs, this suffix reduces to -де -de. Due to vowel weakening, the weak verbs have merged into just one declension.

Full Weak Class Verb Conjugation, from PGmc *spellōną, "to speak"
Infinitive: spellen [ˈʃpellən]
Imperative: spell
Present Participle: spellents
Past Participle: spellens

Present Tense:
1st S: spelle
2nd S: spelles
3rd S: spellet
1st P: spellem
2nd P: spellet
3rd P: spellen

Past Tense:
1st S: spelde
2nd S: speldes
3rd S: speldet
1st P: speldem
2nd P: speldet
3rd P: spelden

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Re: Goþesch Razde

Post by Ælfwine » 02 Aug 2019 05:06

Recently, I have been rethinking the history and culture behind my language to give Crimean Gothic some background. I haven't thought it out much in detail, but the major POD is during the ninth century. In this alternate history, Saint John of Gothia manages to successfully expel the Khazars and later found an independent kingdom of Gothia. Saint John is comparable to who George Washington is to the Americans, Napoleon to the French, or Árpád to the Hungarians — essentially a notable military leader and founding father of the Gothic nation. Though its likely this kingdom later falls to the Mongols/Turks/Russians, I'm hoping it would give the Goths more of a chance of long term survival.

Otherwise history *there* is roughly the same as history *here,* and the Principality of Theodoro changes hands from the Turks to the Russians as it did in OTL. But in this timeline, the Goths have a period of national awakening and desire for self-rule. During the 1800s there would have been a movement towards linguistic purism (as there was in Icelandic) and the creation of many neologisms based on Biblical Gothic and purging of loanwords. However, the Goths would still be under the Russian's yoke, perhaps even being deported to Germany in population exchanges during and after WW2. Like many other people the Goths would be given independence during the fall of the Soviet Union.

Much like how Latin was to the Romance languages and Old Church Slavonic was to the Slavs, I imagine that Biblical Gothic would have the same effect on Crimean Gothic in terms of loanwords, spelling and orthography. For example, I use psi <ѱ> to notate the phoneme /θ/, derived from Bibilical Gothic <𐌸> (and there probably would be other similar Cyrillic characters inspired by BG, e.g. <ѳ> for <𐍈>, <ꙟ> for <𐍊>, but these would be archaic.) Because it allows diacritics and is generally supported by most browsers, I will continue to use a Cyrillic orthography, however I may create a modern Gothic alphabet in the future specifically for the language (and also a map!)

My next post will be showcasing pronouns and clitics.
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