Kojikeng / Kodikeng

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Nachtuil
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Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by Nachtuil » 07 Jul 2019 20:49

This is a sketch language for a people part of a collaborate conworld that I'm working on here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6997

Bare with me as the sections are a bit unorganised at the moment. I'll try to keep this thread organised in the future, potentially with a table of contents with links to specific posts but for now I"m just going to keep updating this first post until it becomes too painful to keep working in it.

Planned features:
3rd person pronouns used as copula for object and property predication.
Past tense marked by preverbal particle.
I’m debating on how much inflection to have but I want a lot of aspect and tense to be represented with particles for verbs.
Mostly prepositional.
Genitive nouns follow nouns, linked with particle.
Pronouns have singular, plural distinction. 3rd singular will have separate inanimate and animate forms but will be purely semantic. 3rd plural will be one form.
Word order is SVO or SOV depending on definiteness of direct object.

******
Recent Updates:
July 12, 2019:
Minor adjustment to politeness.

July 10, 2019:
Sections on pronouns and copulas, definite marking, word order added
******

I'll update the link if appropriate.

Back ground info: Kodikeng /Kojikeng: (Written from the perspective of what would be our modern era.)
Spoiler:

Situated on the subtropical and humid “Oratsem” peninsula on the western coast of a continent the Kojikeng peoples (at the start of the space age) dwell mostly within a confederacy of city states that have historically been completely independent and usually rivals but joined into a military alliance to be more secure against neighbouring powers. This treaty has lasted two hundred years so far.

The confederation formed after a period of foreign rule and a successful war of independence from a neighbouring state which also was a period after which the Kojikeng adopted major orthographic reforms as well to distinguish themselves from their previous conqueror whose writing system they had initially shared. Much of the current political mythology of the current nation is spun from this period too. It is the discovery of large fossil fuel reserves which launched a period of wealth and imperialism for the peninsula itself.

The confederation is made of two classes of member states. Those city state regions on the peninsula, plus the island of “Femiro” who participate as equals and regions acquired through imperialism of the past centuries that were once directly under city states but have since gained quasi independence but lack full rights like those of mainland city states. This is often a source of discontent amongst those living amongst the secondary regions although reforms over time have narrowed the gap a little.

The kojikeng culture and peoples have occupied the peninsula for 3 millennia although their traditional folklore stake their claim to have existed since the creation of the world. Archaeological, and linguistics evidence suggests they migrated to the area from further east where peoples speaking related languages and sharing a few similar cultural traditions and myths including a mythological tree spirit named [poreʃi]. In modern Kojikeng this is a name for the figure but it is related to words for a specific tree species native to drier eastern lands which is absent in the Kojikeng peninsula and the broader region itself. Sample cognate words are [pudwəsi], [fodatsi], [poras], [ɸoɹaʃ] which describe the tree in the eastern regions. Other languages in the region around the Oratsem peninsula are all distinct from Kojikeng although Kojikeng initially adopted a local writing system upon arrival which they eventually heavily modified and quite a bit of lexicon sharing has occurred.

The Oratsem peninsula has long been well situated to benefit from regional trade patterns but the discovery of oil just offshore in the industrial age propelled the Kojikeng economically. Additionally, ample supplies of a few rare earth metals and some ingredients in rocket fuel have further made them important in the space age. The Kojikeng peninsula is sub tropical and the discovery of oil reserves fuelled a period of imperialism which led to the acquisition of collections of islands in the south and west they have kept into the space age and but also some mainland regions they eventually lost control over. Some of the larger equatorial islands they control are used as launch sites for their own national projects and allied space agencies. At this point the nation has a few space stations that it directly controls and it participates in several joint projects with its allies.

Much of the old growth forests that covered the peninsula had vanished by the time of discovery of oil and the industrial boom after made matters worst but patches of old growth remain, in part due to cultural significance but also because a lot of grew on very rocky difficult terrain with no resources under the ground. Some recovery has occurred though as some mines were used up and permitted to return to nature. Much of the landscape that isn’t urban tends to be farmland.
Phonology:
Spoiler:
Inventory:
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p t ts k/ <p t ts k/
/b d g/ <b d g>
/ɸ s/ <f s>
/w r j/ <w r y>


/i e a o/ <i e a o>

The language has a native orthographic tradition I have not created yet but two romanisations exist, neither of which is used by the natives. The first is purely phonemic and is indicated above. An alternative orthography exists which is more flawed in that it uses different characters to indicate allophones of the same phoneme but was more intuitive to non-native speakers. The alternative orthography represents /t d s/ as <ch j sh> when before /i/ as seen below:

/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p t ts k/ <p t/ch ts k/
/b d g/ <b d/j g>
/ɸ s/ <f s/sh>
/w r j/ <w r y>

/i e a o/ <i e a o>


Phonotactics:
(C) (G) V (N)

Onset:
/m n ŋ p t ts k b d g ɸ s w r j/
/kw kj gw gj/ *

* Velars with semi vowels preceding often are slightly palatalised or labialised. Disagreement exists if these are best considered clusters or phonemes. The traditionalist intepretation is presented above.

Nucleus:
/i e a o/

Coda:
/m n ŋ/

Word internal clusters:
/ns nt nd kw kj gw gj/

Phonological processes:
1. Word internally nasals always assimilate in place to a following obstruent.
2. / n t d s / -> [ ɲ tʃ dʒ ʃ ] / _ [ i ]
3. /r/ -> [ɾ] / not onset of stressed syllable or not immediately following stressed syllable
4. /s/ -> [ z ] / V _ V

Stress pattern:
The first syllable is always stressed if a word is multisyllabic. Stress is identified by a slight raise in pitch and duration of the syllable.
Numbers and classifiers:
Spoiler:
Note: See section on plurality to see plural marking on noun phrases. Kojikeng has singular, plural and collective.

Numbers:
1. re
2. men
3. tang
4. weya
5. tso
6. yoki
7. feng
8. nabo
9. wen
10. Tsoba

Classifiers:
1. gwa
Used for inanimate objects as a catch all.
2. reba
Used for animate things like people and creatures.
3. chi
For long stiff objects - branches, spears, bones, pens
4. oshi
For long flexible objects - vines, ropes, ribbons, limbs, rivers
5. ora
For flat stiff objects - tables, doors, the ground, plates, plains, shields
6. jire
For flat flexible objects - blankets, sheets of paper, pelts
7. ngen
For things that contain other things like bags, lakes and bowels.
Word Order and Transitivity:
Spoiler:
The general word order is S V with other noun phrases coming after the verb.
For transitive constructions where the direct object is definite, the word order is S O V.
For transitive constructions where the direct object is indefinite, the word order is S V O.

The subject of a sentence must be definite. Clause and voicing trickery that is not yet determined will be used to avoid situations where an indefinite subject might occur.
Plurality and definite marking:
Spoiler:
Clause final particles are employed to mark definiteness and number for noun phrases. To be clear, the plural marker actually marks both singular and plural, its absence suggests indefiniteness and a large of specification of number.
Indefinite noun phrases are not marked for plurality.
Pronouns are always marked for plurality.

Definiteness/plurality markers:
Singular: /no/
Plural: /kwe/
Collective: /ŋasi/ Edit: I'm going to incorporate this into the grammar as a classifier.

/sobi no/ [sobi no] <sobi no>: "The man."
/sobi kwe/ [sobi kwe] <sobi kwe>: "The men"
/sobi ŋasi/ [sobi ŋaʃi] <sobi ngashi> : "The band/group/crowd"

These particles are not restricted in what grammatical roles they can be applied to equally used on subject as well as oblique arguments.
Pronouns and copulas:
Spoiler:

1st singular: fe /ɸe/
1st plural: wipa /wipa/
2nd singular: odo /odo/
2nd plural: nado /nado/
3rd singular
animate: sen /sen/
3rd singular
inanimate: tsi /tsi/
3rd plural: tsero /tsero/

The animate/inanimate distinction is purely semantic at this point though far in the language's past it had grammatical gender which has almost completely disappeared but for a few spots in the grammar such as these pronouns and two classifiers. The animate pronoun is always used for people, pets and larger animals but haphazardly to other nouns depending on perceived agency or empathy. It is not uncommon for someone to talk about beloved non living objects by sen although it is somewhat marked. However, it occurs often enough it is a stereotype about the Kojikeng that they are quirky or dramatic about their connection to physical things by speakers of languages with more strict boundaries or proper noun class agreement systems.

Third person pronouns are used as copula between nouns or pronouns and property and property predication.

/sedi sen mokwara/ [sedʒi sen mokwara]
pronoun 3rd-sing-animate teacher
"Seji is a teacher"

Compare this construction with just a pronoun:
"Sen mokwara"
"He/she is a teacher"

Politeness, definite marking and pronouns:
Spoiler:
(under consideration) The definite/plural markers are additionally used with 2nd and 3rd person pronouns to create a very extra formal construction. This is rarely ever done with first person pronouns although speakers are aware of it's use in a usually facetious manner. Most typical use lays with 2nd and 3rd person pronouns. This pattern is equally noteworthy and regular.
Consider:
1. Odo yotsiga : "You are a mechanic."
2 Odo yotsiga no : "You are the mechanic."
3. Odo no yotsiga :"You sir/mam, are a mechanic."
4. Odo no yotsiga no :"You sir/mam, are the mechanic."

5. Nado yotsiga : "You (all) are mechanics."
6. Nado yostiga kwe :"You (all) are the mechanics."
7. Nado kwe yotsiga : "You sirs/mams are mechanics."
8. Nado kwe yotsiga kwe : "You sirs/mams are the mechanics."

3rd person pronouns may also be used in this construction although this is typically done when the third person is present in the context of the conversation.
9. Sen yotsiga : "He is a mechanic."
10. Sen yotsiga no : "He is the mechanic"
11. Sen no yotsiga : "He is a mechanic" (but with honour, politeness)
12. Sen no yotsiga no : "He is the mechanic. (but same)

The third person plural may also get this treatment.

13. Tsero yotsiga. "They are mechanics"
14. Tsero yotsiga kwe. "They are the mechanics"
15. Tsero kwe yotsiga. "They are mechanics" (formal)
16. Tsero kwe yotsiga kwe. "They are the mechanics" (formal)

Lastly, this effect lastly may be used with proper names only.
Seji no mokwara : "Seji is a teacher. " (polite.)

( I have not yet worked out the exact bounds of the usage of the formal register but officials like judges and royalty would enjoy its usage. Perhaps the usage is used only for certain professionals and public officials broadly.)
Last edited by Nachtuil on 23 Jul 2019 18:05, edited 22 times in total.

DV82LECM
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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by DV82LECM » 07 Jul 2019 21:14

"Word internal clusters:
Only permissible clusters are nasal + oral stop or velar stop + glide."

I get the "velar-ity" of the clusters. But when you mention "oral" above...how does that differ from velar?

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by k1234567890y » 07 Jul 2019 21:20

"I’m debating on how much inflection to have but I want a lot of aspect and tense to be represented with particles for verbs." < maybe a lot? ouo

can I suggest something else for your lang?
...

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by Nachtuil » 07 Jul 2019 22:11

DV82LECM wrote:
07 Jul 2019 21:14
"Word internal clusters:
Only permissible clusters are nasal + oral stop or velar stop + glide."

I get the "velar-ity" of the clusters. But when you mention "oral" above...how does that differ from velar?
I mean just to narrow it down to /k g/. Sometimes nasals are considered nasal stops (as opposed to the oral stops).
k1234567890y wrote:
07 Jul 2019 21:20
"I’m debating on how much inflection to have but I want a lot of aspect and tense to be represented with particles for verbs." < maybe a lot? ouo

can I suggest something else for your lang?
Yeah for sure! :)
Last edited by Nachtuil on 07 Jul 2019 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by DV82LECM » 07 Jul 2019 22:30

Nachtuil wrote:
07 Jul 2019 22:11
DV82LECM wrote:
07 Jul 2019 21:14
"Word internal clusters:
Only permissible clusters are nasal + oral stop or velar stop + glide."

I get the "velar-ity" of the clusters. But when you mention "oral" above...how does that differ from velar?
I mean just to narrow it down to /k g/. Sometimes nasals are considered nasal stops (as opposed to the oral stops).
k1234567890y wrote:
07 Jul 2019 21:20
"I’m debating on how much inflection to have but I want a lot of aspect and tense to be represented with particles for verbs." < maybe a lot? ouo

can I suggest something else for your lang?
Yeah for sure! :)
So, to sum up...permissibles are: /kw gw kr gr ky gy/?

If so, 'tis vibing quite PIE-like.

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by k1234567890y » 07 Jul 2019 22:38

Nachtuil wrote:
07 Jul 2019 22:11
Yeah for sure! :)
I kinda wanna suggest you to give Kojikeng postposition...or DOM(differential object marking) based on definiteness, or both...
...

Nachtuil
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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by Nachtuil » 07 Jul 2019 22:50

DV82LECM wrote:
07 Jul 2019 22:30

So, to sum up...permissibles are: /kw gw kr gr ky gy/?

If so, 'tis vibing quite PIE-like.
It may end up there. Only glides /w j/ are intended not /r/ so /kw kj gw gj/
k1234567890y wrote:
07 Jul 2019 22:38
I kinda wanna suggest you to give Kojikeng postposition...or DOM(differential object marking) based on definiteness, or both...
I was going to have mixed but I'll consider making it more heavily post position.
That's a good idea about the DOM. Any suggestions?

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by Nachtuil » 07 Jul 2019 23:24

I've edited the phonotactics to make it more explicit.

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by k1234567890y » 08 Jul 2019 00:24

Nachtuil wrote:
07 Jul 2019 22:50

I was going to have mixed but I'll consider making it more heavily post position.
That's a good idea about the DOM. Any suggestions?
definite direct objects receive a distinct marking, probably an adposition, but indefinite objects don't receive a marking different from nominatives
...

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by Nachtuil » 08 Jul 2019 01:23

k1234567890y wrote:
08 Jul 2019 00:24
Nachtuil wrote:
07 Jul 2019 22:50

I was going to have mixed but I'll consider making it more heavily post position.
That's a good idea about the DOM. Any suggestions?
definite direct objects receive a distinct marking, probably an adposition, but indefinite objects don't receive a marking different from nominatives
Hmm okay! I like that! It's tempting to just.... stuff number, definiteness and grammatical relation into one particle that is an adposition. Maybe an posposition because i wanted to have definite marking after the noun. That seems deeply improbable but the idea amuses me. I was already going to only mark plurality only on definite noun phrases. But maybe a system which keeps them separate so that the definite/plural marker is independent.

Maybe a five particle system?
P1: Direct object, definite, singular
P2: Direct object, definite, plural
P3: Other, definite, singular
P4: Other, definite, plural
P5: Direct object, indefinite.

Maybe that's too heavy though, what do you think?
I guess I could just not mark number on definite non-direct objects. I often like to make it a rule that subjects must be definite though but I still want to mark number plurality for the subject somehow. I guess I could put inflection on the verb to mark the plurality of the subject. Maybe another system makes sense.

Perhaps I can have a 2 particle system and play with word order for direct objects:
SVO = object is indefinite
SOV = object is definite

P1: Implied definite, singular.
P2: Implied definite, plural.
Indefiniteness would not be marked

I've never heard of this happening in a natural language but it's neat. Or maybe I just forget if such things exist. The more I think about it I think some languages do rearrange elements to bring new information to the front though I guess that is kind of the opposite of this (as old information tends to be definite)
Such a system would likely use the same particles to mark number on definite objects but syntactically objects are treated differently according to definiteness. The rearrangement there reminds me of object incorporation: "I hair-combed the child." instead of "I combed the hair of the child" to promote the more animate/salient noun to the direct object position. I could use SVO for intransitive sentences I guess. I've spent a few years making anything but SVO languages but this mixture would be interesting.

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by Nachtuil » 10 Jul 2019 06:47

I've updated a few things on the top post. Included is pronouns, definite marking, some syntax, some formality notes.

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by Nachtuil » 20 Jul 2019 04:07

I have not figured out how I"m going to handle my verbs quite yet (mostly been extremely busy). I've decided to punt that decision down the road and make some common phrases/expressions. If I keep this, I'm already kind of locking myself in a bit as I have been thinking to mark number on the verb after all. My orthography is.... deliberately easy. haha. Missing is phonetic transcription but it is likely apparent?

Kajim /kadim/ : Simple pleasant greeting equivalent to hello.
Narochi /naroti/: Simple pleasant equivalent to goodbye
Nebeso /nebeso/: Welcome.
Dam nebesayo /dam nebesajo/: Welcome (very polite)
Daboshi /dabosi/: I’m good / It's good.
Eraboshi /erabosi/: I’m great / It's great
Maragi /maragi/: I’m so so. / It's so so.
Ngepa /ŋepa/: Please
Dorafi /doraɸi/: Thanks
Nado dorafi /nado doraɸi/: Thank you
Wechi Tsota /weti tsota/: No problem/ you’re welcome (lit:This removes burden)
Sen wechi Tsota /sen weti tsota/: No problem/ you’re welcome but more elaborate/formal (lit:This removes burden)
Tsi fe kwani /tsi ɸe kwani/: This is a pleasure/ this pleases me.
Weng /weŋ/: No
We /we/: Nah
Faji /ɸadi/: Yes
Fa /ɸa/: Ya
Fe gimowa /ɸe gimowa/: Excuse me
Kekwa dafa /kekwa daɸa/: Until later (lit: until/later see)
Kekwa widon /kekwa widon/: Until later (lit: until/later talk)

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by brblues » 23 Jul 2019 16:30

Can I just also ask you - what time frame do you have in mind for that incarnation of the language, would that be the modern times (roundabout same as our current present)?

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Re: Kojikeng / Kodikeng

Post by Nachtuil » 24 Jul 2019 05:21

I probably should set this form of the language in the modern era at "present" or between AG 0 and AG 250. I'll have to produce earlier versions of the language backwards alas. I mentioned sister languages still existing in the north east somewhere too. I definitely want to create a few dialectal versions at some point and would love a proper space age variant.

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