Discussing basic vocabulary

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Tanni
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 09 Sep 2019 16:08

Khemehekis wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:How about "ant"? That's on the Leipzig-Jakarta List. I know Iceland doesn't have ants, but most places where humans live have them.
If there's just one or a few countries without ants, this should not be a criteria to not have them on the list.
I agree.
But this is not a criterion to have them on the list either. They shoud be "basic" to the (con)people in one way or the other.
Khemehekis wrote:
You might speak more frequently of bees, wasps, beetles or spiders, than of ants.
I don't know about German, but in English "ant" is a higher-frequency word than "wasp". We also have ant spray (in the Raid commercials), the Maxis game SimAnt, ant farms, and the movie Antz.
And even than, this is not a sufficient criterion, as other things might be more basic.
We've already enough animals in the list.
Khemehekis wrote:
Beetle is common in human recognition, bugs are not. Obviously, many people can't even discern them. This is similar to opiliones, as many people can't discern them from spiders.
True. I call Opiliones harvestmen, but a lot of people I know simply call them spiders. Daddy-longlegs is also a common name in the U.S.
The Opiliones simply got it bad with their names in both, English and German. And wasn't there even a second meaning for one of the two English names?
Khemehekis wrote:
Khemehekis wrote: I'd choose ''duck'' over ''goose'' as it's higher-frequency. Asians and Americans are also more likely to eat duck than goose.
Seems to me that duck is more prevalent in the US, while goose is more prevalent in Europe. So they are not basic. This also means that dive isn't basic. Not sure if I should add chicken instead, even if it's frequent.
According to the American English corpus at https://www.wordfrequency.info/free.asp?s=y , "duck" (as a noun) is the 3,553rd most common word in English, while "goose" does not make the top 5,000.
Depends on how basic it is in the society of the (con)people. And wheather it introduces some other basic related concept, e. g. that of diving.
Khemehekis wrote:At the British English Kilgarriff corpus at http://www.kilgarriff.co.uk/BNClists/lemma.al , "duck" (as a noun) is word #3,858, and "goose" does not make the top 6,318 words.

From what I've read, English people will traditionally eat goose on Christmas. I can't tell you the last time I saw goose meat available in the U.S.
English people or English-speaking people? In Germany, and I think this also holds for the rest of Europe, people like to have goose as Christmas dish. Please be aware of the end of the Nils Holgerson story.
Khemehekis wrote:
Added right and wrong, as, according to Mark Passio's Natural law presentation, they are basic, as they are non-man-made intrinsic parts of the universe applying at all times and everywhere for beings able to understand the difference between harmful and non-harmful behaviour.
[+1]
Do "true" and "false" need to be included?

Added ''to greet'' in the list of verbs introduced by other concepts.
My neurochemistry has fucked my impulse control, now I'm diagnosed OOD = oppositional opinion disorder, one of the most deadly diseases in totalitarian states, but can be cured in the free world.

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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 13 Sep 2019 08:18

Tanni wrote:
07 Sep 2019 17:48
Khemehekis wrote:
01 Sep 2019 01:44
The Swadesh List includes "year". But you're right that space stations will not use years. I have the most advanced civilizations in the Lehola Galaxy use Planck time.
We are not doing a Swadesh list here.
OK. My Basic 200 List isn't an attempt to reinvent the wheel either, as had I truly intended to re-create the Swadesh List, I would have used the exact same 207 words.
Speaking of the stars . . .
This category is likely to be the only one present in all basic vocabulary list. But wait, what about a (con)people living underground, or in an ocean under a thick layer of ice on a moon of a gigantic planet like Jupiter?
People living under the ice would probably not be very anthropic. But you're right, this is something to think about.
Maybe humans already have explored the Milky Way? Do not underestimate the aliens!
Perhaps, when aliens abduct humans, they show them around the galaxy. If a Grey from Leo were to abduct a Terran human and not bring her back, then she might get a multi-decade tour of the Milky Way!

The best site I've found for credible alien encounters is http://alienjigsaw.com/ . It's my favorite site on ufology, the Greys, and such. Gave me a lot of ideas for the Lehola Galaxy!

In the universe of the Lehola Galaxy, though, they have the iteli, so humans, albeit not Earth humans, have evolved on Kankonia, Shanu, Junsu, and many other planets. They've explored the Milky Way by coming from there (Lehola) to here (Milky Way)!


Khemehekis wrote:
01 Sep 2019 01:44
In Kankonian, any star can be called hayaz (star), but only a star that has at least one planet (inhabited or not) orbiting it can be called a heles (sun).
Is there a special name for a star with inhabitable planets (most important for human colonisation), in contrast to those which aren't orbited by inhabitable planets?
One would say hayaz edwel (inhabitable star) vs. hayaz khoskemen (uninhabitable star).
Last edited by Khemehekis on 13 Sep 2019 08:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 13 Sep 2019 08:41

Tanni wrote:
08 Sep 2019 12:01
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
But there are the Dogons.
I remember reading that the Dogon people apparently got their knowledge of the Sirius star system from Griaule.

In homage to the Dogon people, the Kankonian word for "Milky Way" is Amma.
Why should he have done this? See here: Michael Tellinger -- Advanced Ancient Civilization in South Africa, Michael Tellinger on Great Zimbabwe 2019 and Dogon Tribe 2019.

There as so-called "debunkers" who try to blurr up the work of real researchers by revisiting e.g. the Dogon
(or, in another case the Mount Ararat, where somebody has found a ship-like structure) and try to superseed it with their own misinterpretations.

You should also check out Zecharia Sitchin's official website.
I knew about Zecharia Sitchin! I'm not sure I remembered hearing of his passing.

Something I noticed:

"Morrison has said that Nibiru is not real, that there is no 10th planet in our solar system (I still count Pluto), and that there is no cause for alarm."

No tenth planet in our solar system? Not all astronomers agree with that anymore!

https://phys.org/news/2016-03-links-mas ... lanet.html
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
Leo gives Käfer, Insekt and Wanze for bug, besides others.
Many people might not be able to discern a beetle (Käfer) from a bug (Wanze), even though it is quite easy.
I understand that in British English "bug" refers only to insects of the order Hemiptera. In American English, though, it is an informal classification for non-marine arthropods (insects, arachnids, centipedes, millipedes, and pillbugs (Rollasseln), but not pycnogonids, horseshoe crabs, nor non-pillbug crustaceans).
The English we learnt at school was British English. Asseln are also a very interesting kind of animal.
Wow -- I don't think I'd even seen eine Riesenassel before! Interesting, even if they're not basic, nor even core (I have "centipede" but not "pillbug" on the full LCV).
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
That's because I invented the word. It has to do with the iteli, and the way identical species can evolve independently in multiple planets in the Lehola Galaxy. See this post for an explanation.
I have not specified the what kind of species my basic wordlist should apply to.
It implies some kind of human like creature (human, elf, dwarf, etc.) together with
the usual animals and plants found on earth.
I see! What someone writing about the Lehola Galaxy would call "the human bioswath".
Ok, that's all the life forms that come together with humans.
Yes! Planets in Lehola that have humans also tend to have camels, wolves/dogs, cats, lions, tigers, monkeys, whales, elepjants, chickens, parrots, snakes, turtles, crocodiles, lizards, frogs, sharks, and so on. They will also have spiders, bees, ants, flies, butterflies, beetles, lice, crickets, grasshoppers, mantises, scorpions, earthworms, snails, ferns, and thousands and thousands of angiosperms.
In one relativly recent Perry Rhodan story, someone (an alien shape shifter infiltrating the solar system) discovers a Mondspinne on Moon. The knowledge about that kind of spiders was part of his preparation for his mission. There are other Perry Rhodan novels mentioning alien bioswath on earth, PR 2632 -- Die Nacht des Regenriesen. It's in the story of the "15-year old Terraner Geronimo Abb and his Au-pair-girl Dayszaraszay Schazcepoutrusz".
Mondspinne -- German for moon spider! Is it an evolutionary analogue to Earth's arachnids? Does the Perryverse have the concept of the iteli like Lehola? Or did spiders get from Earth to that moon and go their own evolutionary way over the millennia?
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
If un and ñu serve the same purpose as milk, why not call it milk? It could
be referred to chais milk or añak milk respectively, if there is an need to
distinguish it from mammalian milk.
I could do that -- we have "almond milk" and "soy milk" after all, although now Congress in the U.S. is trying to legislate against calling beverages that do not come from ruminant mammals "milk".
I've heard about that. Assuming that the chais and the añak are animal-like and not plant-like, there's no reason why not use the word "milk".
Fair enough. I do call the structures on female chais and añak that produce the liquid breasts, after all.
Khemehekis wrote:
01 Sep 2019 01:44
And in Europe, we have Nils Holgerson.
I see! Both ducks AND geese.
But Nils does his journey with the wild geese! And there's also Die Gänsemagd.
I see! Geese are important in folklore.

Russia has the seven swans.

And in the book Charlotte's Web by E.B. White, there is a goose who says things thrice, with a gosling named Geoffrey.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 13 Sep 2019 08:52

Tanni wrote:
09 Sep 2019 16:08
Khemehekis wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:How about "ant"? That's on the Leipzig-Jakarta List. I know Iceland doesn't have ants, but most places where humans live have them.
If there's just one or a few countries without ants, this should not be a criteria to not have them on the list.
I agree.
But this is not a criterion to have them on the list either. They shoud be "basic" to the (con)people in one way or the other.
Khemehekis wrote:
You might speak more frequently of bees, wasps, beetles or spiders, than of ants.
I don't know about German, but in English "ant" is a higher-frequency word than "wasp". We also have ant spray (in the Raid commercials), the Maxis game SimAnt, ant farms, and the movie Antz.
And even than, this is not a sufficient criterion, as other things might be more basic.
We've already enough animals in the list.
Dog and snake are definitely basic. Bird and fish are so generic that they're basic as well, as is the word "animal" itself. Some lists say louse is basic. You and I agree that spider is basic. I would consider chicken basic, although you disagree. And of course, human is basic in any conworld (or natworld) with humans.

Other than those, I'm not sure which animals are basic.
Tanni wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
Beetle is common in human recognition, bugs are not. Obviously, many people can't even discern them. This is similar to opiliones, as many people can't discern them from spiders.
True. I call Opiliones harvestmen, but a lot of people I know simply call them spiders. Daddy-longlegs is also a common name in the U.S.
The Opiliones simply got it bad with their names in both, English and German. And wasn't there even a second meaning for one of the two English names?
I have read that in some parts of the U.S., the word "daddy-longlegs" refers to a mosquito hawk/cranefly (a two-winged fly of the family Tipulidae). Where I live, though, I've never heard "daddy-longlegs" used to refer to anything but Opiliones.
Khemehekis wrote:
Khemehekis wrote: I'd choose ''duck'' over ''goose'' as it's higher-frequency. Asians and Americans are also more likely to eat duck than goose.
Seems to me that duck is more prevalent in the US, while goose is more prevalent in Europe. So they are not basic. This also means that dive isn't basic. Not sure if I should add chicken instead, even if it's frequent.
According to the American English corpus at https://www.wordfrequency.info/free.asp?s=y , "duck" (as a noun) is the 3,553rd most common word in English, while "goose" does not make the top 5,000.
Depends on how basic it is in the society of the (con)people. And wheather it introduces some other basic related concept, e. g. that of diving.
Khemehekis wrote:At the British English Kilgarriff corpus at http://www.kilgarriff.co.uk/BNClists/lemma.al , "duck" (as a noun) is word #3,858, and "goose" does not make the top 6,318 words.

From what I've read, English people will traditionally eat goose on Christmas. I can't tell you the last time I saw goose meat available in the U.S.
English people or English-speaking people? In Germany, and I think this also holds for the rest of Europe, people like to have goose as Christmas dish. Please be aware of the end of the Nils Holgerson story.
English people, as in those who live in England. In the U.S., people will usually celebrate Christmas by eating a ham. If they're Jewish, they'll likely go out for Chinese food on that day.

I couldn't find out how Nils Holgerson's story ends. What is the ending? (You can put it in a spoiler tag if you don't want to spoil it for the other CBBizens.)
Khemehekis wrote:
Added right and wrong, as, according to Mark Passio's Natural law presentation, they are basic, as they are non-man-made intrinsic parts of the universe applying at all times and everywhere for beings able to understand the difference between harmful and non-harmful behaviour.
[+1]
Do "true" and "false" need to be included?
They sound like fundamental concepts too, so I would say go for it!
Added ''to greet'' in the list of verbs introduced by other concepts.
That can tie into a word for hi/hello/good morning/good night/good-bye! If you are conlanging with a conpeople who is at all human-like, you will probably get to those interjections sooner or later.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 60,137 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

Tanni
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 13 Sep 2019 10:18

Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
People living under the ice would probably not be very anthropic. But you're right, this is something to think about.
The plan is to parameterise the basic list. So each category has a module for each instance of a certain parameter.
A module can be empty, of course.
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
The best site I've found for credible alien encounters is http://alienjigsaw.com/ . It's my favorite site on ufology, the Greys, and such. Gave me a lot of ideas for the Lehola Galaxy!
It mentions at least Lloyd Pye. You might want to check out this Mark Passio - Cosmic Abandonment dedicated to Lloyd Pye. See also Mark Passio - The Interference Of The Species. There is even more, search for "Mark Passio nephilim" in youtube.

The Greys as they are usually depicted look ridiculous. As if someone had fashioned them according to the baby schema (Kindchenschema) without taking into consideration basic biological facts: The body is much too small for that gigantic head. How can such a small body sustain that huge head (brain)? How even can such a small body and neck keep the head in its position?
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
In the universe of the Lehola Galaxy, though, they have the iteli, so humans, albeit not Earth humans, have evolved on Kankonia, Shanu, Junsu, and many other planets. They've explored the Milky Way by coming from there (Lehola) to here (Milky Way)!
Why the Milky Way? Is there an in-world reason for that?
Khemehekis wrote:
01 Sep 2019 01:44
In Kankonian, any star can be called hayaz (star), but only a star that has at least one planet (inhabited or not) orbiting it can be called a heles (sun).
Is there a special name for a star with inhabitable planets (most important for human colonisation), in contrast to those which aren't orbited by inhabitable planets?
One would say hayaz edwel (inhabitable star) vs. hayaz khoskemen (uninhabitable star).
This sounds like the star itself were inhabited. In Perry Rhodan, there are the "Sonnenhäusler" who probably inhabit stars, as well as the Guan a Var.
Last edited by Tanni on 14 Sep 2019 11:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 13 Sep 2019 19:15

Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:41
Something I noticed:

"Morrison has said that Nibiru is not real, that there is no 10th planet in our solar system (I still count Pluto), and that there is no cause for alarm."

No tenth planet in our solar system? Not all astronomers agree with that anymore!
I still count Pluto, too. A couple of weeks ago, I saw a video about Pluto. It seems to be a very interesting Planet. They also said that the people depriving Pluto its planetary status were not planetologists. I hope this decision will be ditched some day. According to Sitchin, even the Anunaki counted Gaga (Pluto) as planet.

There are definitely more than 10 planets in our system, whether you count Nibiru or not, 'cause there are some of a similar size as Pluto beyond Pluto's orbit.
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
Wow -- I don't think I'd even seen eine Riesenassel before! Interesting, even if they're not basic, nor even core (I have "centipede" but not "pillbug" on the full LCV).
The giant spiders in my conworld sometimes eat a similar kind of Riesenassel. They breed them in some moist regions of their canyon. But my spiders are mostly vegetarian.
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
In one relativly recent Perry Rhodan story, someone (an alien shape shifter infiltrating the solar system) discovers a Mondspinne on Moon. The knowledge about that kind of spiders was part of his preparation for his mission. There are other Perry Rhodan novels mentioning alien bioswath on earth, PR 2632 -- Die Nacht des Regenriesen. It's in the story of the "15-year old Terraner Geronimo Abb and his Au-pair-girl Dayszaraszay Schazcepoutrusz".
Mondspinne -- German for moon spider! Is it an evolutionary analogue to Earth's arachnids? Does the Perryverse have the concept of the iteli like Lehola? Or did spiders get from Earth to that moon and go their own evolutionary way over the millennia?
No, it is an ordinary moon spider from earth somehow brought to the Moon. The Moon in PR is a huge systems of dockyards for spacecrafts. And there is a huge computer system called Nathan. It is responsible for weather control on earth, besides others. So it is most likely that some earthly bioswath got it to the Moon. In PR, humans stem from some bio-experimentation done to early human-like creatures 2,000,000 years ago by the Takerer, a subpeople of the Cappin located in a galaxy called Gruelfin (Sombrero nebula) far away from the Milky Way. They came to the Tranat system (Sol system) to create perfect pedopoles for use to the pedotransferers. That means that they tried to create the perfect slaves whom they could mentally take over for whatever reason. Then they had 150,000 years of development. Then came a long war against the beasts (Bestien/Haluter). They originally came from the galaxy M87 but had some basis in the Magellanic Cloud (I don't know which one). Early humans (called Lemurer) had the so called Großes Tamanium consisting of 111 Tamanium (Plural Tamania??? = foundations). As the war proceeds, humans spread out to several hiding places within the Milky Way and beyond (in Andromeda). In Andromeda, the Lemurer called themselves Tefroder. The language changed somewhat: Lemurisch to Alt-Tefroda to Tefroda, see also Neu-Gruelfin.
Last edited by Tanni on 14 Sep 2019 10:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 13 Sep 2019 19:54

Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:52
Dog and snake are definitely basic. Bird and fish are so generic that they're basic as well, as is the word "animal" itself. Some lists say louse is basic. You and I agree that spider is basic. I would consider chicken basic, although you disagree. And of course, human is basic in any conworld (or natworld) with humans.

Other than those, I'm not sure which animals are basic.
I tried to avoid general terms like "animals" or ''human''. The same argument as against "man" and "woman". Generalisations are not basic, they presuppose a lot of reasoning.
Khemehekis wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
Beetle is common in human recognition, bugs are not. Obviously, many people can't even discern them. This is similar to opiliones, as many people can't discern them from spiders.
True. I call Opiliones harvestmen, but a lot of people I know simply call them spiders. Daddy-longlegs is also a common name in the U.S.
The Opiliones simply got it bad with their names in both, English and German. And wasn't there even a second meaning for one of the two English names?
I have read that in some parts of the U.S., the word "daddy-longlegs" refers to a mosquito hawk/cranefly (a two-winged fly of the family Tipulidae). Where I live, though, I've never heard "daddy-longlegs" used to refer to anything but Opiliones.
Pholcidae/dt. Zitterspinnen (I had them in my room as well as Tegenaria) and other species called Daddy longlegs
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
Leo gives Käfer, Insekt and Wanze for bug, besides others.
Many people might not be able to discern a beetle (Käfer) from a bug (Wanze), even though it is quite easy.
I understand that in British English "bug" refers only to insects of the order Hemiptera. In American English, though, it is an informal classification for non-marine arthropods (insects, arachnids, centipedes, millipedes, and pillbugs (Rollasseln), but not pycnogonids, horseshoe crabs, nor non-pillbug crustaceans).
An example for the American usage of ''bug'': The Founders Live July 4th at 17:00 -- Sprayed Like Bugs.
Khemehekis wrote:
English people or English-speaking people? In Germany, and I think this also holds for the rest of Europe, people like to have goose as Christmas dish. Please be aware of the end of the Nils Holgerson story.
English people, as in those who live in England. In the U.S., people will usually celebrate Christmas by eating a ham. If they're Jewish, they'll likely go out for Chinese food on that day.

I couldn't find out how Nils Holgerson's story ends. What is the ending? (You can put it in a spoiler tag if you don't want to spoil it for the other CBBizens.)
Jewisch people celebrating Christmas by going for Chinese food on Christmas day? Isn't Chanuka almost the same day as Christmas day?
Spoiler:
What is the ending of Nils Holgerson? Nils is required to bring the he-goose Martin (the one with the rope) back home to regain his original (human) size. But Martin is a fattened goose, who is to be slaughtered for St. Martin's Day celebration. See St. Martin's Day. See why geese is prevalent in Europe?
Khemehekis wrote:
Added right and wrong, as, according to Mark Passio's Natural law presentation, they are basic, as they are non-man-made intrinsic parts of the universe applying at all times and everywhere for beings able to understand the difference between harmful and non-harmful behaviour.
[+1]
Do "true" and "false" need to be included?
They sound like fundamental concepts too, so I would say go for it!
But they seem somewhat similar.
Khemehekis wrote:
Added ''to greet'' in the list of verbs introduced by other concepts.
That can tie into a word for hi/hello/good morning/good night/good-bye! If you are conlanging with a conpeople who is at all human-like, you will probably get to those interjections sooner or later.
Greeting is a basic protocoll of communication. In greeting someone, you indicate that you are aware of his/her presence and ready to start a conversation with that person. There could/should be a categorie for basic communication terms, especially if they are just single words or phrases like the ones you mention. But greetings like Elen síla lúmenn’ omentiëlvo are not basic. And greetings in general might depend on various circumstances, not just the time of the day.
Last edited by Tanni on 17 Sep 2019 10:41, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 14 Sep 2019 11:36

Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
People living under the ice would probably not be very anthropic. But you're right, this is something to think about.
The plan is to parameterise the basic list. So each category has a module for each instance of a certain parameter. A module can be empty, of course.

The first parameter would be purpose: Its values are at least language comparison, language creation (conlanging) and language learning. These categories might overlap.

Basic terms for language comparison should belong to the original (inherited) set of words of a language, they should not be loans from another language, in order to get a true conclusion about the genetic affiliation of that languages.

Basic terms for conlanging/conworlding should reflect the basic concepts seen from the perspective oft the (con)people respectively.

Basic terms for language learning should allow the learner to build up useful sentences in common situation or describing common phenomena as early as possible.

The second parameter would be the type of world: is it real-world or fictional? In a real-world setting, the word "dragon" is not basic, while in a fictional setting, it could be.

A third parameter could be called strangeness, where every mentioned kind of being is supposed to speak: Possible values are entirely human, entirely existing animals (this is essentially a fable), human and fictional animals, mixed human & animals, human-like but not exactly human, human and human-like, ...

The parameter location indicates where the (con)people speaking that language normally live: surface of a planet, subterranian (not necessarily on earth), oceanic, in space/within spacecrafts, ...

The parameter state of societal development encompasses hunter/gatherer, agriculture, slave society, steampunk society, technological society, magical society, ... Note that e. g. a hunter/gatherer society does not necessarily be on a planet, they might be some kind of pirates on spaceships hunting other spaceships or gathering valuable parts from the wrecks of spacecrafts.

There might be further parameters as well. Each value of each parameter contributes concepts to the list of basic vocabulary. The set of concepts it contributes is called a module.
My neurochemistry has fucked my impulse control, now I'm diagnosed OOD = oppositional opinion disorder, one of the most deadly diseases in totalitarian states, but can be cured in the free world.

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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 21 Sep 2019 05:17

Tanni wrote:
13 Sep 2019 10:18
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
People living under the ice would probably not be very anthropic. But you're right, this is something to think about.
The plan is to parameterise the basic list. So each category has a module for each instance of a certain parameter.
A module can be empty, of course.
I saw your explanation in a later post. Very strategic!
It mentions at least Lloyd Pye. You might want to check out this Mark Passio - Cosmic Abandonment dedicated to Lloyd Pye.
Wikipedia says the Starchild Skull (fascinating case, by the way) was probably a human little boy with hydrocephalus. But they still didn't explain what made it so hard for them to cut the skull!
Humans have some strange traits, such as women going through painful labor with babies whose heads are too big, but there are examples in nature of awkward evolutionary paths like that without alien influence. A good example is the diet of the giant panda: its teeth are adapted to meat, yet mostly a panda lives on bamboo, and a panda has to eat a whole lot of it because it's hard for the bamboo to provide nutrition to a panda's digestive system.

Speaking of babies with big heads . . .
The Greys as they are usually depicted look ridiculous. As if someone had fashioned them according to the baby schema (Kindchenschema) without taking into consideration basic biological facts: The body is much too small for that gigantic head. How can such a small body sustain that huge head (brain)? How even can such a small body and neck keep the head in its position?
Good question. I have seen a Grey described as resembling a "neotenous human". Some people theorize that Greys are travelers from the distant future, trying to save their homogeneous, untenable, weakened race with the varied DNA of present-day humans. If the Greys have such unwieldily large heads, perhaps their race really is untenable.
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
In the universe of the Lehola Galaxy, though, they have the iteli, so humans, albeit not Earth humans, have evolved on Kankonia, Shanu, Junsu, and many other planets. They've explored the Milky Way by coming from there (Lehola) to here (Milky Way)!
Why the Milky Way? Is there an in-world reason for that?
They've gone to thousands of other galaxies in the universe, so it's not too surprising that Leholans have explored the Milky Way along with the rest of them.

There is also an in-world reason, though: Kankonians visiting Earth allowed them to encounter Terrans so they could borrow words into Kankonian for uniquely Terran concepts: pitza (pizza), Fraidei (Friday), Dzhyun (June), basketbal (basketball), kauboihat (cowboy hat), imo (emo), papa (pope), Islami (Islamic/Muslim), Dzhapanik (Japanese), dala (dollar), kilometer (kilometer), Marksi (Marxist), kanish (poodle), etc.
Khemehekis wrote:
01 Sep 2019 01:44
In Kankonian, any star can be called hayaz (star), but only a star that has at least one planet (inhabited or not) orbiting it can be called a heles (sun).
Is there a special name for a star with inhabitable planets (most important for human colonisation), in contrast to those which aren't orbited by inhabitable planets?
One would say hayaz edwel (inhabitable star) vs. hayaz khoskemen (uninhabitable star).
This sounds like the star itself were inhabited. In Perry Rhodan, there are the "Sonnenhäusler" who probably inhabit stars, as well as the Guan a Var.
Wow! Some beings the Sonnenhäusler are! They don't have anything like that in the Lehola Galaxy -- they'd have to be the ultimate extremophiles.
Last edited by Khemehekis on 21 Sep 2019 05:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 21 Sep 2019 05:33

Tanni wrote:
13 Sep 2019 19:15
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:41
Something I noticed:

"Morrison has said that Nibiru is not real, that there is no 10th planet in our solar system (I still count Pluto), and that there is no cause for alarm."

No tenth planet in our solar system? Not all astronomers agree with that anymore!
I still count Pluto, too. A couple of weeks ago, I saw a video about Pluto. It seems to be a very interesting Planet. They also said that the people depriving Pluto its planetary status were not planetologists. I hope this decision will be ditched some day. According to Sitchin, even the Anunaki counted Gaga (Pluto) as planet.
Not planetologists? Wow!

Even if you don't count Pluto, there are probably more than eight planets, because the cyclical mass extinctions on Earth are most likely caused by asteroid showers from Planet X (as in the article I linked you to the last time). I'm thinking of making Kakol (the tenth planet in the solar system Venska) positioned at just the right place so as to cause periodic asteroid-shower-induced extinctions in Kankonian prehistory that match up with the timing of major extinctions in Earth's prehistory -- that way, groups like the non-avian dinosaurs can become extinct after the same amount of evolutionary time, and many of the same species from the human bioswath -- including humans -- can appear on Kankonia as appeared on Earth.
There are definitely more than 10 planets in our system, whether you count Nibiru or not, 'cause there are some of a similar size as Pluto beyond Pluto's orbit.
Yes, the dwarf planets like Eris and Ceres.
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
Wow -- I don't think I'd even seen eine Riesenassel before! Interesting, even if they're not basic, nor even core (I have "centipede" but not "pillbug" on the full LCV).
The giant spiders in my conworld sometimes eat a similar kind of Riesenassel. They breed them in some moist regions of their canyon. But my spiders are mostly vegetarian.
That looks like a delicious isopod! I don't know if I as a human would enjoy it as much as I enjoy crab or prawns, but a spider might enjoy it. So you have mostly vegetarian spiders? Are they like Bagheera kiplingi, only sapient?
No, it is an ordinary moon spider from earth somehow brought to the Moon. The Moon in PR is a huge systems of dockyards for spacecrafts. And there is a huge computer system called Nathan. It is responsible for weather control on earth, besides others. So it is most likely that some earthly bioswath got it to the Moon. In PR, humans stem from some bio-experimentation done to early human-like creatures 2,000,000 years ago by the Takerer, a subpeople of the Cappin located in a galaxy called Gruelfin (Sombrero nebula) far away from the Milky Way. They came to the Tranat system (Sol system) to create perfect pedopoles for use to the pedotransferers. That means that they tried to create the perfect slaves whom they could mentally take over for whatever reason. Then they had 150,000 years of development. Then came a long war against the beasts (Bestien/Haluter). They originally came from the galaxy M87 but had some basis in the Magellanic Cloud (I don't know which one). Early humans (called Lemurer) had the so called Großes Tamanium consisting of 111 Tamanium (Plural Tamania??? = foundations). As the war proceeds, humans spread out to several hiding places within the Milky Way and beyond (in Andromeda). In Andromeda, the Lemurer called themselves Tefroder. The language changed somewhat: Lemurisch to Alt-Tefroda to Tefroda, see also Neu-Gruelfin.
The story of Takerer genetically engineering humans sounds like a lot of the New Age beliefs on how humans were created -- very interesting! It is too bad that the humans were designed to be slaves -- some conspiracy theories say the reptoids, or Draconians, plan to enslave humanity.

Lemurisch (Lemurian?) and the other languages make for good reading for a conlanger. On Earth, we have a religion called Lemurian and speculation on a lost continent (like Atlantis) called Lemuria.

EDIT: And yes, the plural of "tamanium" would probably be "tamania". Like stadium -> stadia, millennium -> millennia, datum -> data, forum -> fora, encomium -> encomia, and so on.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 21 Sep 2019 05:53

Tanni wrote:
13 Sep 2019 19:54
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:52
Dog and snake are definitely basic. Bird and fish are so generic that they're basic as well, as is the word "animal" itself. Some lists say louse is basic. You and I agree that spider is basic. I would consider chicken basic, although you disagree. And of course, human is basic in any conworld (or natworld) with humans.

Other than those, I'm not sure which animals are basic.
I tried to avoid general terms like "animals" or ''human''. The same argument as against "man" and "woman". Generalisations are not basic, they presuppose a lot of reasoning.
I see.

I include both "plant" and "animal" in the Basic 200 list. I also have "person/people" (which works for any sapient species). In the full LCV, I list many of the plants, animals, fungi, etc. we have on Earth.
Pholcidae/dt. Zitterspinnen (I had them in my room as well as Tegenaria) and other species called Daddy longlegs
I see the pholcid/cellar spider! I've had those in my bedroom many times over the years. We also found a lot of them in the laundry room where I was growing up. They always looked as if they were belly-up, dried-out and dead. But provoke one, and you see it move!
An example for the American usage of ''bug'': The Founders Live July 4th at 17:00 -- Sprayed Like Bugs.
Yes, like that song. The insecticide Raid once used the slogan "Raid: Kills bugs dead". (Raid kills mostly ants and cockroaches, not usually hemipterans like bedbugs).

The alternative rocker Sebastian Bach got a lot of heat because he used to wear a T-shirt with the homophobic parody of the above: "AIDS: Kills f*gs dead". He said he thought it was funny. To me, it just sounds like reinforcing bigoted attitudes against an oppressed group that a lot of people don't accept, and one that many people will come up with very serious, angry rhetoric to defend their prejudice against (just look at Fred Phelps!) I've never been capable of understanding why it's so-o-o-o-o-o important to some people that gays and lesbians not be able to marry.
Jewisch people celebrating Christmas by going for Chinese food on Christmas day? Isn't Chanuka almost the same day as Christmas day?
Well, kind of. You do get presents, and Chanukkah normally occurs in December. But it lasts eight days, not just one day (nor twelve days, like The Twelve Days of Christmas). And it commemorates the miracle of the Maccabee's oil lamp whose oil lasted for eight days instead of the allotted one day, rather than the birth of a messiah. However, the December timing and the gift-giving have increased its importance to Jews in recent decades. I remember reading an article by a Jew about how Chanukkah used to be a minor holiday, and didn't become such a big deal until Americans started corporatizing Christmas.
Spoiler:
What is the ending of Nils Holgerson? Nils is required to bring the he-goose Martin (the one with the rope) back home to regain his original (human) size. But Martin is a fattened goose, who is to be slaughtered for St. Martin's Day celebration. See St. Martin's Day. See why geese is prevalent in Europe?
Ah, I see, St. Martin's Day! I was not familiar with that saint's day. That would definitely make the goose an important animal, much like the dragon in Wales and China. And such a shame that Martin has to be slaughtered after all he does for and with Nils! [:'(]
Khemehekis wrote:
Added right and wrong, as, according to Mark Passio's Natural law presentation, they are basic, as they are non-man-made intrinsic parts of the universe applying at all times and everywhere for beings able to understand the difference between harmful and non-harmful behaviour.
[+1]
Do "true" and "false" need to be included?
They sound like fundamental concepts too, so I would say go for it!
But they seem somewhat similar.
Well, it's your list. Go with what you ultimately decide.
Greeting is a basic protocoll of communication. In greeting someone, you indicate that you are aware of his/her presence and ready to start a conversation with that person. There could/should be a categorie for basic communication terms, especially if they are just single words or phrases like the ones you mention. But greetings like Elen síla lúmenn’ omentiëlvo are not basic. And greetings in general might depend on various circumstances, not just the time of the day.
I agree with your points.

In many languages, such as Indonesian, the person leaving and the person staying use different words for "good-bye". And Japanese has a special greeting for when the speakers are on the telephone: "Moshimoshi".
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 23 Sep 2019 10:27

Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
Wikipedia says the Starchild Skull (fascinating case, by the way) was probably a human little boy with hydrocephalus. But they still didn't explain what made it so hard for them to cut the skull!
But the skull itself doesn't look human. And why should one wish to cut the skull? Aren't there other, destruction free methods of investigation? I saw a video a couple of month ago, where they showed two of such skulls in a church in either Austria or Switzerland, or
maybe it also could have been in Germany, I don't remember.
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
... but there are examples in nature of awkward evolutionary paths like that without alien influence. A good example is the diet of the giant panda: its teeth are adapted to meat, yet mostly a panda lives on bamboo, and a panda has to eat a whole lot of it because it's hard for the bamboo to provide nutrition to a panda's digestive system.
So, either the teeth adapted to meat part is wrong, or it would proof that even pandas can change to a meatless diet if necessary.
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
The Greys as they are usually depicted look ridiculous. As if someone had fashioned them according to the baby schema (Kindchenschema) without taking into consideration basic biological facts: The body is much too small for that gigantic head. How can such a small body sustain that huge head (brain)? How even can such a small body and neck keep the head in its position?
Good question. I have seen a Grey described as resembling a "neotenous human". Some people theorize that Greys are travelers from the distant future, trying to save their homogeneous, untenable, weakened race with the varied DNA of present-day humans. If the Greys have such unwieldily large heads, perhaps their race really is untenable.
It is much more likely that that whole Grey extraterrestials thingy is a hoax. If they (the Greys) are that advanced a species, that they can perform time travel (what I think is impossible) or intergalactic spaceflight, it should be safe to assume that they are also masters in genetics. Then, I would assume that they have some kind of a gen-library of their species and the technology and ability and knowledge to manipulate their genome as they wish. They would not need to abduce people of other species to "refresh" their gen pool. And even if we take the Panspermy theory into accout, there is no reason to assume that all life in the universe has the same genetics.
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
There is also an in-world reason, though: Kankonians visiting Earth allowed them to encounter Terrans so they could borrow words into Kankonian for uniquely Terran concepts: pitza (pizza), Fraidei (Friday), Dzhyun (June), basketbal (basketball), kauboihat (cowboy hat), imo (emo), papa (pope), Islami (Islamic/Muslim), Dzhapanik (Japanese), dala (dollar), kilometer (kilometer), Marksi (Marxist), kanish (poodle), etc.
Some of the concepts they borrowed are rather questionable.
Khemehekis wrote:
01 Sep 2019 01:44
This sounds like the star itself were inhabited. In Perry Rhodan, there are the "Sonnenhäusler" who probably inhabit stars, as well as the Guan a Var.
Wow! Some beings the Sonnenhäusler are! They don't have anything like that in the Lehola Galaxy -- they'd have to be the ultimate extremophiles.
Sonnenhäusler (Spenta)
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 23 Sep 2019 11:40

Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:33
There are definitely more than 10 planets in our system, whether you count Nibiru or not, 'cause there are some of a similar size as Pluto beyond Pluto's orbit.
Yes, the dwarf planets like Eris and Ceres.
Exactly! But then, we should count them as planets, and ditching the concept of a dwarf planet altogether.
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:33
Khemehekis wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:16
Wow -- I don't think I'd even seen eine Riesenassel before! Interesting, even if they're not basic, nor even core (I have "centipede" but not "pillbug" on the full LCV).
The giant spiders in my conworld sometimes eat a similar kind of Riesenassel. They breed them in some moist regions of their canyon. But my spiders are mostly vegetarian.
That looks like a delicious isopod! I don't know if I as a human would enjoy it as much as I enjoy crab or prawns, but a spider might enjoy it.
Why Carnism Is Wrong And A Bad Choice (Mark Devlin & Mark Passio On The Season Of Sacrifice)
Mark Passio: "Meat Eating is a Dogmatic Religion"
Veganism vs. Carnism - Least Harm Possible
Mark Passio WOEIH Podcast 122 Full With Slides; Carnism & Non-Support of Dominators see at 0:43:13
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:33
So you have mostly vegetarian spiders? Are they like Bagheera kiplingi, only sapient?
There are the normal spiders, they live as usual, and there are the giant spiders, who can grow up to more than 2 meters, who mostly are vegetarians, especially if they live in symbiosis with the Catys. If they weren't vegetarians, they would probably not be able to sustain themselves, as there is not that much animal prey in that huge conyoon they live in (it's actually a system of canyoons). But they have bees to get honey. They have different colors and sizes, and even different languages. But all of them have to learn the language of the Catys, which is some kind of Lingua Franca in this region.
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:33
No, it is an ordinary moon spider from earth somehow brought to the Moon. The Moon in PR is a huge systems of dockyards for spacecrafts. And there is a huge computer system called Nathan. It is responsible for weather control on earth, besides others. So it is most likely that some earthly bioswath got it to the Moon. In PR, humans stem from some bio-experimentation done to early human-like creatures 2,000,000 years ago by the Takerer, a subpeople of the Cappin located in a galaxy called Gruelfin (Sombrero nebula) far away from the Milky Way. They came to the Tranat system (Sol system) to create perfect pedopoles for use to the pedotransferers. That means that they tried to create the perfect slaves whom they could mentally take over for whatever reason. Then they had 150,000 years of development. Then came a long war against the beasts (Bestien/Haluter). They originally came from the galaxy M87 but had some basis in the Magellanic Cloud (I don't know which one). Early humans (called Lemurer) had the so called Großes Tamanium consisting of 111 Tamanium (Plural Tamania??? = foundations). As the war proceeds, humans spread out to several hiding places within the Milky Way and beyond (in Andromeda). In Andromeda, the Lemurer called themselves Tefroder. The language changed somewhat: Lemurisch to Alt-Tefroda to Tefroda, see also Neu-Gruelfin.
The story of Takerer genetically engineering humans sounds like a lot of the New Age beliefs on how humans were created -- very interesting! It is too bad that the humans were designed to be slaves -- some conspiracy theories say the reptoids, or Draconians, plan to enslave humanity.
It is essentially the story told by Zecharia Sitchin, as there are parallels: Takerer = Anunaki, Zeut = Nibiru. The orbit of Zeut originally was very ellicpic, which was changed later. Then there were the war against the Haluter, and Zeut got destroyed. Its remnants are the Astroid belt. I've made an error concernig the time span involved. It was just 200 000 years, not 2 000 000. So even the time fits more or less.
Lemurisch (Lemurian?) and the other languages make for good reading for a conlanger. On Earth, we have a religion called Lemurian and speculation on a lost continent (like Atlantis) called Lemuria.
The team of Perry Rhodan authors obviously based their story on that. In-world, Atlantis is actually called after the character Atlan. See also Atlan-Serie and especially Titelbildgalerie "König von Atlantis" and König von Atlantis (Zyklus).

Never heard of a religion called Lemurian.
EDIT: And yes, the plural of "tamanium" would probably be "tamania". Like stadium -> stadia, millennium -> millennia, datum -> data, forum -> fora, encomium -> encomia, and so on.
Then, you would apply a Latin plural to an Lemurian term. As Arkonidisch (Satron) is a successor language of Lemuric, the plural would be more likely tamanii, according to Zhy - übersinnliche Kraft, inneres Feuer (Blauband 14) > Zhy-Fam - Feuerfrau (Blauband 14), Zhy-Famii - Feuerfrauen (Blauband 14). There is also the term Tron'athorii = high speakers as in Tron'athorii Huhany-Zhy - die Dagoristas (»Hohe Sprecher des Göttlich-Übersinnlichen Feuers«), where Athor means prince, besides others, see the Satron webpage of Perrypedia.
Last edited by Tanni on 17 Oct 2019 14:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 23 Sep 2019 13:11

An example for the American usage of ''bug'': The Founders Live July 4th at 17:00 -- Sprayed Like Bugs.
Yes, like that song. The insecticide Raid once used the slogan "Raid: Kills bugs dead". (Raid kills mostly ants and cockroaches, not usually hemipterans like bedbugs).

What a childish slogan and ad. In the song, WE are the bugs!
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:53
Jewisch people celebrating Christmas by going for Chinese food on Christmas day? Isn't Chanuka almost the same day as Christmas day?
Well, kind of. You do get presents, and Chanukkah normally occurs in December. But it lasts eight days, not just one day (nor twelve days, like The Twelve Days of Christmas). And it commemorates the miracle of the Maccabee's oil lamp whose oil lasted for eight days instead of the allotted one day, rather than the birth of a messiah. However, the December timing and the gift-giving have increased its importance to Jews in recent decades. I remember reading an article by a Jew about how Chanukkah used to be a minor holiday, and didn't become such a big deal until Americans started corporatizing Christmas.
Corporatizing Christmas?
Spoiler:
What is the ending of Nils Holgerson? Nils is required to bring the he-goose Martin (the one with the rope) back home to regain his original (human) size. But Martin is a fattened goose, who is to be slaughtered for St. Martin's Day celebration. See St. Martin's Day. See why geese is prevalent in Europe?
Ah, I see, St. Martin's Day! I was not familiar with that saint's day. That would definitely make the goose an important animal, much like the dragon in Wales and China. And such a shame that Martin has to be slaughtered after all he does for and with Nils! [:'(]
Do you really think that it goes that way? It doesn't!

There is also an English version of Nils Holgerson, Nils & the Wild Geese, but it seems that it is much less complex and much shorter than the original series.
Well, it's your list. Go with what you ultimately decide.
This thread is called "Discussing basic vocabulary", so everybody is invited to participate in the discussion.

Added to sit, to teach, hill, web/cobweb, cave.

If there is spider, there must also be web/cobweb, which I count to the environment for now.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 02 Oct 2019 05:37

Tanni wrote:
23 Sep 2019 10:27
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
Wikipedia says the Starchild Skull (fascinating case, by the way) was probably a human little boy with hydrocephalus. But they still didn't explain what made it so hard for them to cut the skull!
But the skull itself doesn't look human. And why should one wish to cut the skull? Aren't there other, destruction free methods of investigation?
From http://alienjigsaw.com/anomalies/Pye-St ... rt-II.html:

"One of the first things we did was arrange an analysis by the scanning electron microscope at the Royal Holloway Scientific Institute outside London. It revealed something utterly astonishing: embedded in the matrix of the Starchild’s bone were fibers of some kind, fibers which seemed to be incredibly durable because they had been shredded rather than sheared by the cutting blade that removed the bone samples from the skulls. Such fibers had never been found in any other bone in any other animal species on earth, so this was yet another blinking red neon sign that the Starchild skull represented something extraordinary."

Hydrocephalus alone wouldn't be sufficient to explain this, would it?
Tanni wrote:I saw a video a couple of month ago, where they showed two of such skulls in a church in either Austria or Switzerland, or maybe it also could have been in Germany, I don't remember.
I wonder if they would be similarly hard to remove bone samples from.
Tanni wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
... but there are examples in nature of awkward evolutionary paths like that without alien influence. A good example is the diet of the giant panda: its teeth are adapted to meat, yet mostly a panda lives on bamboo, and a panda has to eat a whole lot of it because it's hard for the bamboo to provide nutrition to a panda's digestive system.
So, either the teeth adapted to meat part is wrong, or it would proof that even pandas can change to a meatless diet if necessary.
I would bet on the latter explanation. Pandas have evolved to live on plants (one subfamily of plants in particular).

They say cats (domestic cats, and lions, tigers, jaguars, etc.) are obligate carnivores. Do you suppose someone's cat could survive on milk and plant-based foods alone?
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
The Greys as they are usually depicted look ridiculous. As if someone had fashioned them according to the baby schema (Kindchenschema) without taking into consideration basic biological facts: The body is much too small for that gigantic head. How can such a small body sustain that huge head (brain)? How even can such a small body and neck keep the head in its position?
Good question. I have seen a Grey described as resembling a "neotenous human". Some people theorize that Greys are travelers from the distant future, trying to save their homogeneous, untenable, weakened race with the varied DNA of present-day humans. If the Greys have such unwieldily large heads, perhaps their race really is untenable.
It is much more likely that that whole Grey extraterrestials thingy is a hoax. If they (the Greys) are that advanced a species, that they can perform time travel (what I think is impossible) or intergalactic spaceflight, it should be safe to assume that they are also masters in genetics.
I would write the sentence: "If they (the Greys) are so advanced a species that they can perform time travel (which I think is impossible) or intergalactic spaceflight, it should be safe to assume that they are also masters in genetics."

Why do you think time travel is impossible?

As for the genetics, you have a good point. Nanotech and genetic engineering will come before the discovery of time travel and the millennia-ahead-of-us science behind the engineering of the Roswell craft.
And even if we take the Panspermy theory into accout, there is no reason to assume that all life in the universe has the same genetics.
Panspermia? Yes, but with the Greys in particular, there is a theory that they are in fact cetaceans. So if the Greys do exist, they likely belong to the same phylum and class as humans.
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
There is also an in-world reason, though: Kankonians visiting Earth allowed them to encounter Terrans so they could borrow words into Kankonian for uniquely Terran concepts: pitza (pizza), Fraidei (Friday), Dzhyun (June), basketbal (basketball), kauboihat (cowboy hat), imo (emo), papa (pope), Islami (Islamic/Muslim), Dzhapanik (Japanese), dala (dollar), kilometer (kilometer), Marksi (Marxist), kanish (poodle), etc.
Some of the concepts they borrowed are rather questionable.
Do you mean that it's questionable that these concepts are unique to Earth? Or that it's questionable that the Kankonians would borrow these concepts into their language? Or that some of these (Marxism, perhaps?) are morally questionable?
Last edited by Khemehekis on 02 Oct 2019 06:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 02 Oct 2019 06:02

Tanni wrote:
23 Sep 2019 11:40
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:33
There are definitely more than 10 planets in our system, whether you count Nibiru or not, 'cause there are some of a similar size as Pluto beyond Pluto's orbit.
Yes, the dwarf planets like Eris and Ceres.
Exactly! But then, we should count them as planets, and ditching the concept of a dwarf planet altogether.
Fair enough.
You'd like Act II, Scene 8 of my play The Bittersweet Generation. It has this interaction between 16-year-old Paul Moreno and the twentysomething dot-commer he rings up as a cashier:
Spoiler:
PAUL
You guys talk about gas?

SANJAY
Yeah, whenever one of us breaks wind we’ll talk about it a little and laugh. [Passes ground beef up.]

PAUL
You’re making hamburgers?

SANJAY
Sure. You want to come over to my house for hamburgers?

PAUL
Uh . . . I’m a vegetarian.

SANJAY
That’s cool. Why’d you become a vegetarian?

PAUL
Well, if you look at the past people decided it was wrong to hold witch hunts, or to arrest people for saying the Earth revolves around the Sun, or to keep women from voting, or to send Japanese-Americans to concentration camps. Right? So when we think about the people of those times, we think about how wrong we all know they were. Right? So I thought that in 200 years, people would realize it was wrong to kill animals. And I don’t want to be looked at as someone who was unable to rise above his time. You know what I’m saying?

SANJAY
That’s cool.
In the Lehola Galaxy, they have qasa, a form of meat grown without brains or even heads, developed by the natives of the planet Javarti. Qasa is fertilized with the genes of the animals it replicates, and looks and tastes just like meat or seafood, but without the ethical questions that surround raising and killing animals. Vegetarians often eat qasa, but some, the azoöproteinarians, forgo any form of animal protein, and there is even a word in Lehola Interplanetary English, "aqasarian", for people who specifically avoid eating qasa. Qasa exists for Javarti animals like vuri, palvu, dzesti, pürmo, üngolu, jinkhu, vilkha, arvu, matürvi, djilghano, txiva, ampoyla, zgendi and most lokho species, as well as such foreign meats as pork, chicken, tapir, wenschar, fezina, shrimp, lusbukhet, lusbef and lusifes. All pet food for carnivorous pets on Javarti is now made with qasa.
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:33
So you have mostly vegetarian spiders? Are they like Bagheera kiplingi, only sapient?
There are the normal spiders, they live as usual, and there are the giant spiders, who can grow up to more than 2 meters, who mostly are vegetarians, especially if they live in symbiosis with the Catys. If they weren't vegetarians, they would probably not be able to sustain themselves, as there is not that much animal prey in that huge conyoon they live in (it's actually a system of canyoons). But they have bees to get honey. They have different colors and sizes, and even different languages. But all of them have to learn the language of the Catys, which is some kind of Lingua Franca in this region.
Canyoons? You mean canyons? It sounds as if the spiders have a lot of fun without hurting any of the creatures there, and they even have a happy relationship with the bees. (Do any bees in your conworld speak a language?) And I like the realistic multilingual situation in the home of the Catys and sapient spiders.
It is essentially the story told by Zecharia Sitchin, as there are parallels: Takerer = Anunaki, Zeut = Nibiru. The orbit of Zeut originally was very ellicpic, which was changed later. Then there were the war against the Haluter, and Zeut got destroyed. Its remnants are the Astroid belt.
It sure sounds like the Nibiru tale!
I've made an error concernig the time span involved. It was just 200 000 years, not 2 000 000. So even the time fits more or less.
Oh, OK.

Nibiru may or may not be real, with that timeframe, but I just don't believe the creation story from Scientology. It claims political things were happening in our universe trillions of years ago!
Lemurisch (Lemurian?) and the other languages make for good reading for a conlanger. On Earth, we have a religion called Lemurian and speculation on a lost continent (like Atlantis) called Lemuria.
The team of Perry Rhodan authors obviously based their story on that. In-world, Atlantis is actually called after the character Atlan. Never heard of a religion called Lemurian.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemurian_Fellowship
EDIT: And yes, the plural of "tamanium" would probably be "tamania". Like stadium -> stadia, millennium -> millennia, datum -> data, forum -> fora, encomium -> encomia, and so on.
Then, you would apply a Latin plural to an Lemurian term. As Arkonidisch (Satron) is a successor language of Lemuric, the plural would be more likely tamanii, according to Zhy - übersinnliche Kraft, inneres Feuer (Blauband 14) > Zhy-Fam - Feuerfrau (Blauband 14), Zhy-Famii - Feuerfrauen (Blauband 14). There is also the term Tron'athorii = high speakers as in Tron'athorii Huhany-Zhy - die Dagoristas (»Hohe Sprecher des Göttlich-Übersinnlichen Feuers«), where Athor means prince, besides others, see the Satron webpage of Perrypedia.
I didn't realize "tamanium" was a Lemurian word.

That's a neat language! Have you considered adding an article on Lemurian to the FrathWiki, Tanni? I've registered (here's my userpage), and you can too!
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 60,137 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 02 Oct 2019 06:24

Tanni wrote:
23 Sep 2019 13:11
Yes, like that song. The insecticide Raid once used the slogan "Raid: Kills bugs dead". (Raid kills mostly ants and cockroaches, not usually hemipterans like bedbugs).
What a childish slogan and ad. In the song, WE are the bugs!
I agree that the redundant grammar makes it sound childish. I had a good laugh reading about the "Raid: Kills Bugs Dead" commercials on that Wikipedia article you linked. I was also surprised to read that some people are using Raid as an inhalant.
Tanni wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:53
Well, kind of. You do get presents, and Chanukkah normally occurs in December. But it lasts eight days, not just one day (nor twelve days, like The Twelve Days of Christmas). And it commemorates the miracle of the Maccabee's oil lamp whose oil lasted for eight days instead of the allotted one day, rather than the birth of a messiah. However, the December timing and the gift-giving have increased its importance to Jews in recent decades. I remember reading an article by a Jew about how Chanukkah used to be a minor holiday, and didn't become such a big deal until Americans started corporatizing Christmas.
Corporatizing Christmas?
Yes. In the United States, the shopping season that goes from Black Friday to Christmas Eve is the biggest time of the year for shopping, and corporate retailers think it's great. As a result, commercials and sales go into overtime from late November through December. To get people into the holiday mood, marketers capitalize on lots of old Christmas clichés: Santa Claus, sleigh bells, snow and snowmen, reindeer, Santa's elves, mistletoe, milk and cookies, making merry with eggnog and/or beer (an update of the wassailers of Yule!), Christmas trees with ornaments, and so on. Pop singers cover the same old tired Christmas standards and make lots of money off their albums in December. The imagery is unpleasantly old-fashioned and focused on a rather "square" time in American and British history; I so cannot identify with decades-old songs peppered with dated references to sleigh riding and clichés about snow. I don't like having to endure "White Christmas" or "I'll Be Home for Christmas" when I walk into a store.
Spoiler:
Do you really think that it goes that way? It doesn't!

Thank goodness!
There is also an English version of Nils Holgerson, Nils & the Wild Geese, but it seems that it is much less complex and much shorter than the original series.
Would the English abridgment of Nils Holgerson be equivalent to the German abridgment of Paddington Bear? I've read that when the Paddington Bear stories were translated into German, the authors removed all the parts that consisted of lengthy British small talk, because Germans don't engage in small talk like that. (Is that true?)
Well, it's your list. Go with what you ultimately decide.
This thread is called "Discussing basic vocabulary", so everybody is invited to participate in the discussion.
Fair enough.

This FrathWiki article may provide some inspiration: https://www.frathwiki.com/Basic_vocabulary
Added to sit, to teach, hill, web/cobweb, cave.

If there is spider, there must also be web/cobweb, which I count to the environment for now.
[+1]
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 60,137 words and counting

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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 02 Oct 2019 11:44

Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 05:37
Tanni wrote:
23 Sep 2019 10:27
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
Wikipedia says the Starchild Skull (fascinating case, by the way) was probably a human little boy with hydrocephalus. But they still didn't explain what made it so hard for them to cut the skull!
But the skull itself doesn't look human. And why should one wish to cut the skull? Aren't there other, destruction free methods of investigation?
From http://alienjigsaw.com/anomalies/Pye-St ... rt-II.html:

"One of the first things we did was arrange an analysis by the scanning electron microscope at the Royal Holloway Scientific Institute outside London. It revealed something utterly astonishing: embedded in the matrix of the Starchild’s bone were fibers of some kind, fibers which seemed to be incredibly durable because they had been shredded rather than sheared by the cutting blade that removed the bone samples from the skulls. Such fibers had never been found in any other bone in any other animal species on earth, so this was yet another blinking red neon sign that the Starchild skull represented something extraordinary."

Hydrocephalus alone wouldn't be sufficient to explain this, would it?
Ok!
Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 05:37
Tanni wrote:I saw a video a couple of month ago, where they showed two of such skulls in a church in either Austria or Switzerland, or maybe it also could have been in Germany, I don't remember.
I wonder if they would be similarly hard to remove bone samples from.
They are shown in the church on an altar. I tried to find that video again, but failed. I don't think that they would let them have cut.
Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 05:37
Tanni wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
... but there are examples in nature of awkward evolutionary paths like that without alien influence. A good example is the diet of the giant panda: its teeth are adapted to meat, yet mostly a panda lives on bamboo, and a panda has to eat a whole lot of it because it's hard for the bamboo to provide nutrition to a panda's digestive system.
So, either the teeth adapted to meat part is wrong, or it would proof that even pandas can change to a meatless diet if necessary.
I would bet on the latter explanation. Pandas have evolved to live on plants (one subfamily of plants in particular).

They say cats (domestic cats, and lions, tigers, jaguars, etc.) are obligate carnivores. Do you suppose someone's cat could survive on milk and plant-based foods alone?
Gott hat keine Raubtiere erschaffen, see especially 11:17.
Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 05:37
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
The Greys as they are usually depicted look ridiculous. As if someone had fashioned them according to the baby schema (Kindchenschema) without taking into consideration basic biological facts: The body is much too small for that gigantic head. How can such a small body sustain that huge head (brain)? How even can such a small body and neck keep the head in its position?
Good question. I have seen a Grey described as resembling a "neotenous human". Some people theorize that Greys are travelers from the distant future, trying to save their homogeneous, untenable, weakened race with the varied DNA of present-day humans. If the Greys have such unwieldily large heads, perhaps their race really is untenable.
It is much more likely that that whole Grey extraterrestials thingy is a hoax. If they (the Greys) are that advanced a species, that they can perform time travel (what I think is impossible) or intergalactic spaceflight, it should be safe to assume that they are also masters in genetics.
I would write the sentence: "If they (the Greys) are so advanced a species that they can perform time travel (which I think is impossible) or intergalactic spaceflight, it should be safe to assume that they are also masters in genetics."

Why do you think time travel is impossible?
Why do you think time travel is possible?
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
As for the genetics, you have a good point. Nanotech and genetic engineering will come before the discovery of time travel and the millennia-ahead-of-us science behind the engineering of the Roswell craft.
What makes you think that the Roswell craft is millenia ahead of us? Even if it really is alien, it doesn't need to be millenia ahead of us. Regardless of the information you provided, there's still one unanswered question: If there are really aliens out there here on earth -- the Greys --, why do they act the way they act, as you put it here? It cannot be genetics, as you agree with me that according to genetics, I have a good point.
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
And even if we take the Panspermy theory into accout, there is no reason to assume that all life in the universe has the same genetics.
Panspermia? Yes, but with the Greys in particular, there is a theory that they are in fact cetaceans. So if the Greys do exist, they likely belong to the same phylum and class as humans.
Most likely, they're made up by the US's secret services to distract the population from other, most illegal activities of that institutions. Have you ever heard of Recapitulation theory (Haeckels law)

For a totally different approach to the non-human-intelligence phenomena, check out here.
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:17
Khemehekis wrote:
13 Sep 2019 08:18
There is also an in-world reason, though: Kankonians visiting Earth allowed them to encounter Terrans so they could borrow words into Kankonian for uniquely Terran concepts: pitza (pizza), Fraidei (Friday), Dzhyun (June), basketbal (basketball), kauboihat (cowboy hat), imo (emo), papa (pope), Islami (Islamic/Muslim), Dzhapanik (Japanese), dala (dollar), kilometer (kilometer), Marksi (Marxist), kanish (poodle), etc.
Some of the concepts they borrowed are rather questionable.
Do you mean that it's questionable that these concepts are unique to Earth? Or that it's questionable that the Kankonians would borrow these concepts into their language? Or that some of these (Marxism, perhaps?) are morally questionable?
I mean that at least money and Marxist are questionable.
Last edited by Tanni on 16 Oct 2019 19:38, edited 1 time in total.
My neurochemistry has fucked my impulse control, now I'm diagnosed OOD = oppositional opinion disorder, one of the most deadly diseases in totalitarian states, but can be cured in the free world.

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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 02 Oct 2019 13:05

Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 06:02
In the Lehola Galaxy, they have qasa, a form of meat grown without brains or even heads, developed by the natives of the planet Javarti. Qasa is fertilized with the genes of the animals it replicates, and looks and tastes just like meat or seafood, but without the ethical questions that surround raising and killing animals. Vegetarians often eat qasa, but some, the azoöproteinarians, forgo any form of animal protein, and there is even a word in Lehola Interplanetary English, "aqasarian", for people who specifically avoid eating qasa. Qasa exists for Javarti animals like vuri, palvu, dzesti, pürmo, üngolu, jinkhu, vilkha, arvu, matürvi, djilghano, txiva, ampoyla, zgendi and most lokho species, as well as such foreign meats as pork, chicken, tapir, wenschar, fezina, shrimp, lusbukhet, lusbef and lusifes. All pet food for carnivorous pets on Javarti is now made with qasa.
This seems to me like some kind of cheeting. The aim is to ditch eating meat at all, not to replace it by meat taken from some creepy creature "grown without brains or even heads".
Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 06:02
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:33
So you have mostly vegetarian spiders? Are they like Bagheera kiplingi, only sapient?
There are the normal spiders, they live as usual, and there are the giant spiders, who can grow up to more than 2 meters, who mostly are vegetarians, especially if they live in symbiosis with the Catys. If they weren't vegetarians, they would probably not be able to sustain themselves, as there is not that much animal prey in that huge conyoon they live in (it's actually a system of canyoons). But they have bees to get honey. They have different colors and sizes, and even different languages. But all of them have to learn the language of the Catys, which is some kind of Lingua Franca in this region.
Canyoons? You mean canyons? It sounds as if the spiders have a lot of fun without hurting any of the creatures there, and they even have a happy relationship with the bees. (Do any bees in your conworld speak a language?) And I like the realistic multilingual situation in the home of the Catys and sapient spiders.
Yes, of course, canyons. They have a happy relationship with the Catys. They have bees, most likely they've got them from a human beekeeper from a neaby village (The bees are normal bees). Maybe they got it from the Catys. I don't know. Tanni just got apples and honey from the spiders. Some of the spider's food comes from the Catys, who also cook. Some Catys live together with the spiders in caves in the slopes of the canyons. (Some) Young spiders are also lactated by Caty parents. Note that even Caty fathers have milk, unlike normal mammels. Caty parents grow breasts if the female is pregnant, so there's plenty of milk to share it with young spiders. There are Catys living in the cocoons of the spiders. In the fourth canyon (in der vierten Schlucht), there is some kind of sapient Vampire bats (Vampirfledermäuse), who also speak the Southern language of the Catys as a second or third language. I have a short story about Tanni meeting one of those Vampire bats at night. As you read German, I would like to send it to you, if you provide me a valid e-mail address.
Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 06:02
It is essentially the story told by Zecharia Sitchin, as there are parallels: Takerer = Anunaki, Zeut = Nibiru. The orbit of Zeut originally was very ellicpic, which was changed later. Then there were the war against the Haluter, and Zeut got destroyed. Its remnants are the Astroid belt.
It sure sounds like the Nibiru tale!
Clark Darlton
Spoiler:
Perrypedia wrote:Nachdem im März 1968 Erich von Däniken seinen literarischen Erstling »Erinnerung an die Zukunft« veröffentlichte, erinnerte dieser Titel Ernsting an den letzten Satz in seinem Roman PR 65. Nach einem Brief an von Däniken folgte ein Treffen, aus dem sich eine enge Freundschaft entwickelte. Von Dänikens zweites Sachbuch Zurück zu den Sternen fand auf Anregung Ernstings Beachtung im Autorenteam. Die astroarchäologischen Zusammenhänge und Thematiken führten zur Erweiterung der Geschichte um die Lemurer, die im Cappin-Zyklus verarbeitet wurde. Erich von Dänikens Person selbst wurde in Ernstings Romanen und Büchern mehrfach verarbeitet. Es folgten zahlreiche gemeinsame Urlaube von Ernsting und Däniken, die sie an verschiedene, astroarchäologisch interessante, Orte wie die Nazca-Ebene führten.
Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 06:02
I've made an error concernig the time span involved. It was just 200 000 years, not 2 000 000. So even the time fits more or less.
Oh, OK.
Nibiru may or may not be real, with that timeframe, but I just don't believe the creation story from Scientology. It claims political things were happening in our universe trillions of years ago!
What is this creation story?
Do they teach Natural law?
I didn't realize "tamanium" was a Lemurian word.
It is a word from Tefroda. Tefroda is the successor of the Lemurian language in Andromeda. See Schmied der Unsterblichkeit.
That's a neat language! Have you considered adding an article on Lemurian to the FrathWiki, Tanni? I've registered (here's my userpage), and you can too!
As this languages belong to the Perryversum (Perry Rhodan universe), ask the Pabel-Moewig Verlag KG to do so!
My neurochemistry has fucked my impulse control, now I'm diagnosed OOD = oppositional opinion disorder, one of the most deadly diseases in totalitarian states, but can be cured in the free world.

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Re: Discussing basic vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 02 Oct 2019 13:42

Khemehekis wrote:
02 Oct 2019 06:24
Tanni wrote:
23 Sep 2019 13:11
Yes, like that song. The insecticide Raid once used the slogan "Raid: Kills bugs dead". (Raid kills mostly ants and cockroaches, not usually hemipterans like bedbugs).
What a childish slogan and ad. In the song, WE are the bugs!
I agree that the redundant grammar makes it sound childish. I had a good laugh reading about the "Raid: Kills Bugs Dead" commercials on that Wikipedia article you linked. I was also surprised to read that some people are using Raid as an inhalant.
There's an anectode about a German celebrity visiting Todmorden telling that ''the city lives up to its name''.
Tanni wrote: Corporatizing Christmas?
Khemehekis wrote:
21 Sep 2019 05:53
Yes. In the United States, the shopping season that goes from Black Friday to Christmas Eve is the biggest time of the year for shopping, and corporate retailers think it's great. As a result, commercials and sales go into overtime from late November through December. To get people into the holiday mood, marketers capitalize on lots of old Christmas clichés: Santa Claus, sleigh bells, snow and snowmen, reindeer, Santa's elves, mistletoe, milk and cookies, making merry with eggnog and/or beer (an update of the wassailers of Yule!), Christmas trees with ornaments, and so on. Pop singers cover the same old tired Christmas standards and make lots of money off their albums in December. The imagery is unpleasantly old-fashioned and focused on a rather "square" time in American and British history; I so cannot identify with decades-old songs peppered with dated references to sleigh riding and clichés about snow. I don't like having to endure "White Christmas" or "I'll Be Home for Christmas" when I walk into a store.
Ok, now I understand. Commercializing Christmas. Yes, that's a huge problem. They start selling Lebkuchen in September. And they started to introduce terms like "Black Friday" one or two years ago. Why are they doing this? We're not Americans, Black Friday is totally meaningless to us. Ok, I would accept Helloween, as this is essentially British. And it is better then the childish carnival or Shrovetide festival in February.
Spoiler:
What is the ending of Nils Holgerson? Nils is required to bring the he-goose Martin (the one with the rope) back home to regain his original (human) size. But Martin is a fattened goose, who is to be slaughtered for St. Martin's Day celebration. See St. Martin's Day. See why geese is prevalent in Europe?
Ah, I see, St. Martin's Day! I was not familiar with that saint's day. That would definitely make the goose an important animal, much like the dragon in Wales and China. And such a shame that Martin has to be slaughtered after all he does for and with Nils! [:'(]
Do you really think that it goes that way? It doesn't!
Spoiler:
I've checked out the description of Die wunderbare Reise des kleinen Nils Holgersson mit den Wildgänsen on Wikipedia. It is actually even worse, but not for Nils and Martin.
Would the English abridgment of Nils Holgerson be equivalent to the German abridgment of Paddington Bear? I've read that when the Paddington Bear stories were translated into German, the authors removed all the parts that consisted of lengthy British small talk, because Germans don't engage in small talk like that. (Is that true?)
Nils Holgerson is actually Swedisch.
I've already heard form Paddington Bear, but I know almost nothing about it. And I don't like small talk. I don't know if other Germans like the lenghty British small talk in Paddington Bear.
This FrathWiki article may provide some inspiration: https://www.frathwiki.com/Basic_vocabulary
Thanks for the link, but I don't want to be influenced by other lists for now.
My neurochemistry has fucked my impulse control, now I'm diagnosed OOD = oppositional opinion disorder, one of the most deadly diseases in totalitarian states, but can be cured in the free world.

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