Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

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Trailsend
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Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

Post by Trailsend » 03 Oct 2019 04:09

Hello, friends! It has been...entirely too long.

Years and years and years ago, I had a thread here detailing my primary project, Hiding Waters (known in previous eras as Feayran). Alas, it did not survive the Great Culling of 2019.

But! I got the itch to dust off some notes and make them presentable, and put them some place I was more likely to properly maintain them. Thus:

A Reference Grammar of Hiding Waters

I would immensely appreciate any feedback y'all have! The old thread was a massive source of insight and improvement; thanks to all who participated in it.

Particular questions I have are:

- How is the presentation of the document? Does it quickly direct you to information you find interesting, or do you have to sift through looking for gems? Does it present information in an accessible and engaging way?

- How's the romanization? It's a bit new.

- Are there questions you have that the document doesn't answer? Topics you wish I would cover, or go into more depth about?

- Perhaps the biggest ask: If you're interested in some morphosyntactic analysis practice, I would love to get some other people's takes on how I've analyzed Hiding Waters' "predicates".

Enjoy! And thanks much for reading.
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。

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Creyeditor
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Re: Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

Post by Creyeditor » 03 Oct 2019 21:38

Great work. I am okay with the romanization. I like the presentation, too. I haven't been able to read through the morphosyntax. I would like to comment on the phonology part though. Sorry, I am realy into phonology and I would love a bit more text explaining the sounds. Which sounds are phonemic and what are their allophones? Doe they alternate? What features/cues are contrastive? What series and what gaps do we find? The phonological inventories look interesting, I would just like to know more about it.
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DV82LECM
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Re: Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

Post by DV82LECM » 04 Oct 2019 06:10

Ayana vuwá thuoivazhe...

I utterly adored Feayran back in the day. I will be reading your grammar. And that line above, for some reason, I remembered all this time.

As for the grammar and roots: is what you did what I could call "polysynthetic infixation"?

Trailsend
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Re: Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

Post by Trailsend » 06 Oct 2019 09:41

Creyeditor wrote:
03 Oct 2019 21:38
Great work. I am okay with the romanization. I like the presentation, too. I haven't been able to read through the morphosyntax. I would like to comment on the phonology part though. Sorry, I am realy into phonology and I would love a bit more text explaining the sounds. Which sounds are phonemic and what are their allophones? Doe they alternate? What features/cues are contrastive? What series and what gaps do we find? The phonological inventories look interesting, I would just like to know more about it.
Thanks for taking a look Creyeditor! Alas, I don't have much on the phonology yet. I tried to lampshade that fact in the introduction, but I know it's something people will be curious about. I'll try to get something presentable put together!

I can tell you that interesting features of the phonology include the absence of labials or grooved sibilants, which the grammar mentions; a creaky-voice contrast in some but not all of the sonorants; and very complex consonant clusters, exacerbated by the allowance of fricatives and approximants as syllable nuclei. Which gets you things like

ẹṇuṇukwhokwhkwh
[ɛ˩n̰.u˧.n̰u˧k̚.ɰ̊o˧kɰ̊.kɰ̊]
we made camp there

DV82LECM wrote:
04 Oct 2019 06:10
Ayana vuwá thuoivazhe...

I utterly adored Feayran back in the day. I will be reading your grammar. And that line above, for some reason, I remembered all this time.

As for the grammar and roots: is what you did what I could call "polysynthetic infixation"?
Oh wow!! Thank you! That looks like it's from way back in the day. I don't remember much from that stage, but I definitely recognize the old name of the Moon. I think I recognize a plural accusative affix, and a leading-toward-audience-following-toward-referent third person affix. "The Moon <some verb>s us," maybe? It looks like a root I might have used for light. That's super cool that the line stuck with you.

"Polysynthetic" definitely fits, and "infixation" mostly does. Hiding Waters' infixation is a bit weird, in that infixing languages tend to place infixes at some predictable spot based on the stress/meter of the word, where Hiding Waters is more arbitrary. For that reason, while I use infix notation in my glosses, I describe the structure as being a "bipartite root" rather than infixation. (This also handles cases where the inflectional material appears to be prefixed or suffixed on the root, rather than infixed. In these roots, one of the two root parts is blank.)

Part of my only-slightly-fleshed-out idea for the historical development of the bipartite root situation is that Hiding Waters descended from a language with a system of verbal complements which gradually became obligatory, and then analogically extended to other verbs until almost all of them had one—and then other developments eventually erased the word boundaries. Thus predicates with no "pre-stem" are descended from nominal constructions that lacked any verb other than the helping verbs that evolved into the intra-root inflections, and predicates with no "post-stem" are descended from verbs that managed not to pick up an obligatory complement.

You can see little vestiges of the complement system in similarities between different roots, like:

ḳ*dọq, "last night", and ḳ*lịt, "yesterday", both descended from the same verb but with different complements.

n*kwh, "place within view", and ịt*kwh, "beside", descended from different verbs with the same complement.


Thanks for your questions, friends! I am very happy to answer more. I just pushed out the rest of the glosses for the section on stance dynamics in discourse.
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。

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Re: Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

Post by holbuzvala » 06 Oct 2019 12:06

I really enjoyed reading this grammar. I thought the ideas in it were fresh, and it was neatly arranged. Certainly made my commute more interesting (though I think I put off some people by trying to pronounce your horrific consonant clusters).

The idea of split roots is fascinating, especially now in light of what you said of their evolving from verb+compliment formations. I also really enjoyed the 'stances' idea - it felt a little bit like a blend of the Hocąk standing-seated-lying obligatory markers on verbs (and therefore everything), and the strict social hierarchy structures in Japanese and/or Tibetan.

Overall, interesting and fresh. Nice work.

Trailsend
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Re: Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

Post by Trailsend » 07 Oct 2019 19:30

holbuzvala wrote:
06 Oct 2019 12:06
your horrific consonant clusters
That's an odd way to romanize [tɹ.ˈɪf.ɪk] ;)

Thanks, holbuzvala! "Interesting and fresh" feels like high praise, I'm glad you enjoyed the read!

I'm working to get something more interesting written up for phonology, and get the Questions section filled out. It occurred to me that I should put together another Stance in Discourse example where someone requests a turn-change instead of ceding the turn to someone else, so that will hopefully happen soon.
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。

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Re: Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

Post by Vlürch » 08 Oct 2019 04:34

Seems like one weird language (in a good way, as weird things usually are)! [:)]

I'll second what Creyditor said, that it'd be nice to know more about the phonology, especially since this stuff is totally unpronounceable to me, which is always fun, but then you already said you'll write more about it so please don't take that the wrong way. The "stance" concept and its fluidity is interesting. I like the contrasting five liquids. Reduplication for repeated action is a cute feature, and the demonstrative system is brilliant and just perfect; "something the speaker can smell but not see" made me laugh out loud because even though it makes sense as a distinction, especially with the heightened sense of smell stuff, I couldn't help but instantly think of a fart. [:'(]

As for the romanisation, at first I thought it was ugly, but then my opinion shifted to it actually looking cool. If only I could feel the same way about the new Kazakh Latin alphabet...

Overall, I think this is one of the coolest conlangs ever.

Trailsend
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Re: Updated Hiding Waters (née Feayran) Grammar

Post by Trailsend » 22 Oct 2019 23:44

Vlürch wrote:
08 Oct 2019 04:34
Overall, I think this is one of the coolest conlangs ever.
Wow! Thanks much!

Glad to hear the romanization grew on you. It's definitely got some wrinkles, but overall, it's grown on me as well.
Vlürch wrote:
08 Oct 2019 04:34
...the demonstrative system is brilliant and just perfect; "something the speaker can smell but not see" made me laugh out loud because even though it makes sense as a distinction, especially with the heightened sense of smell stuff, I couldn't help but instantly think of a fart. [:'(]
just imagine the possibilities! ;)

Y'all will be happy to know that I've added a bit more detail to the Phonology section. Certainly not enough, but a little more color on some allophony rules and how the wild consonant clusters get pronounced.

I've also added another short text to provide the aforementioned requesting-a-conversational-turn-via-stance-switch example (which includes a delightful discussion of how to pick a good rock for skipping on water), along with sections about various kinds of questions and comparatives.

(Related to the question additions, I now can do this delightful exchange:)

A: Sixji ha?
s<i-x-j-i> ha
AUX<FOL.IND-STAT-1<LOC.FOL>> TOPIC_SHIFT_Q
What about me?

B: Suxku hí?
s<u-x-k-u> hí
AUX<LEAD.IND-STAT-2<LOC.LEAD>> Q
What about you?

:)

Question:

Under Predicate Phrases, I have a phrasal template that is...definitely not correct. I have a feel for what predicate phrase structures are allowable, but I haven't actually managed to find a really nice description in rule form.

So:

Would anyone be interested in taking a look at some example data and helping try to find some general rules?
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。

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