Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

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shimobaatar
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 04 Feb 2015 02:29

Ear of the Sphinx wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:/i ɪ ɪ̃ e ẽ/ i ɪ ɪ̃ e ẽ
/iː ɪː ɪ̃ː eː ẽː/ ii ɪɪ ɪ̃ɪ̃ ee ẽẽ
What about using «ı ĩ ıı ĩĩ» for /ɪ ɪ̃ ɪː ɪ̃ː/? :)
I considered that for a while, but I'm pretty sold on the idea of doubling the grapheme for long vowels and using macrons for overlong vowels, so /iːː/ <ī> wasn't going anywhere, and <ɪ̃> is a lot harder to confuse with <ī> than <ĩ> is, in my opinion.
Ear of the Sphinx wrote:Also, using both macrons and doubling to mark length (in consonants, nonetheless!) looks a bit confusing.
Doubling for long obstruents and macrons for long sonorants was the idea. Except for the release-geminated affricates, which are represented as "short affricate symbol + homorganic short fricative of the same voicing symbol".

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Dezinaa » 04 Feb 2015 16:36

Another thingy. (it's no wonder that this is my most posted-in topic [:P] )

/m n ŋ ŋʷ/ <m n g gw>
/p t k kʷ q qʷ/ <p t k kw q qw>
/ʈ͡ʂ t͡ɕ/ <z c>
/s ʂ ɕ x xʷ X Xʷ/ <s sz sc x xw h hw>
/l ɭ j w/ <l r j w>
/i y u e ə ɑ/ <i y u e o a>

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 04 Feb 2015 20:47

Dezinaa wrote:Another thingy. (it's no wonder that this is my most posted-in topic [:P] )

/m n ŋ ŋʷ/ <m n g gw>
/p t k kʷ q qʷ/ <p t k kw q qw>
/ʈ͡ʂ t͡ɕ/ <z c>
/s ʂ ɕ x xʷ X Xʷ/ <s sz sc x xw h hw>
/l ɭ j w/ <l r j w>
/i y u e ə ɑ/ <i y u e o a>
I like the way the sibilants and laterals are romanized in particular, as well as the fact that <o> is used for the schwa.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » 05 Feb 2015 02:34

So, shimobaatar, your language (PWY) uses only small letters, because there is no capital Rams horn or small capital I in Unicode yet.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 05 Feb 2015 02:37

Birdlang wrote:So, shimobaatar, your language (PWY) uses only small letters, because there is no capital Rams horn or small capital I in Unicode yet.
What's the point in saying that?

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » 05 Feb 2015 02:38

shimobaatar wrote:Based on the sound changes I came up with last week, this is what the inventory of Proto-Western-Ypsilon looks like. Keep in mind that many of these phonemes are marginal and have a very limited distribution. Future daughter languages will merge many of the phonemes listed below.

/p b t d k g ʡ/ p b t d k g q
/pː bː tː dː kː gː/ pp bb tt dd kk gg
/ʡ̩/
/ɸ β f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ ɕ ʑ x ɣ ʜ ʢ/ ɸ β f v θ ð s z š ž ś ź x ǧ h ɦ
/ɸː βː fː vː sː zː ʃː ʒː ɕː ʑː ʜː ʢː/ ɸɸ ββ ff vv ss zz šš žž śś źź hh ɦɦ
/ʜ̩ ʜ̩ː ʢ̩ ʢ̩ː/ ḥ ḥḥ ɦ̣ ɦ̣ɦ̣
/p͡ɸ b͡β t͡θ d͡ð t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ k͡x g͡ɣ/ p̄ ƀ ŧ đ c ʒ č ǯ ć ʒ́ ḵ ḡ
/p͡ɸː b͡βː t͡θː d͡ðː t͡sː d͡zː t͡ʃː d͡ʒː t͡ɕː d͡ʑː k͡xː g͡ɣː/ p̄ɸ ƀβ ŧθ đð cs ʒz čš ǯž ćś ʒ́ź ḵx ḡǧ
/m n ŋ ŋː/ m n ŋ ŋ̄
/ɻ j w ɰ ɰː/ r y w ɰ ɰ̄
/r/ ř
/l lˠ/ l ł

/i ɪ ɪ̃ e ẽ/ i ɪ ɪ̃ e ẽ
/iː ɪː ɪ̃ː eː ẽː/ ii ɪɪ ɪ̃ɪ̃ ee ẽẽ
/iːː eːː/ ī ē
/ɨ ʉ ə a/ ɨ ʉ ə a
/əː aː/ əə aa
/aːː/ ā
/ɯ ɯ̃ u ũ ɤ ɤ̃ o õ/ ɯ ɯ̃ u ũ ɤ ɤ̃ o õ
/ɯː ɯ̃ː uː ũː ɤː ɤ̃ː oː õː/ ɯɯ ɯ̃ɯ̃ uu ũũ ɤɤ ɤ̃ɤ̃ oo õõ
/uːː oːː/ ū ō

/eɐ̯ eʊ̯ eɔ̯/ ea eu eo
/eɐ̯ː eʊ̯ː eɔ̯ː/ eâ eû eô
/aɪ̯ aʊ̯/ ai au
/aɪ̯ː aʊ̯ː/ aî aû
/oɪ̯ oɛ̯ oɐ̯/ oi oe oa
/oɪ̯ː oɛ̯ː oɐ̯ː/ oî oê oâ
Why syllabic stops? Those to me are hard to pronounce, and I cannot pronounce epiglottals, but my conlangs that use them can substitute for pharyngealized uvulars. And the point in saying that is that usually, many languages like this use only small letters.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 05 Feb 2015 06:52

Birdlang wrote:Why syllabic stops? Those to me are hard to pronounce
They syllabic stop is in there to pattern with the syllabic fricatives… that's just where the diachronics led me, so to speak.

And I can't pronounce them myself, either. In fact, I'm pretty sure that true syllabic stops are impossible for any human being to pronounce (I could be wrong about that, but they're at least extremely uncommon if not unattested in natlangs)… anyway, I said this:
shimobaatar wrote:The true realization of the phoneme is probably a sonorant like /ʡ̯̩/ or /ᴙ̩/ (a syllabic epiglottal flap or syllabic epiglottal trill).
In my conversation with wintiver on the previous page of this thread. I transcribe it as a syllabic stop for my own purposes (symmetry mostly), but it's not really even an obstruent.

Birdlang wrote:and I cannot pronounce epiglottals, but my conlangs that use them can substitute for pharyngealized uvulars.
I can't pronounce them either. I don't aim to pronounce any of my conlangs, really, at least not the protolangs from my conworld's ancient history.

Funny you should mention (pharyngealized) uvulars, though. The set of (glottal) phonemes that I call "laryngeals" in Proto-Ypsilon become the epiglottals of Proto-Western-Ypsilon, but they become pharyngeals in Proto-Eastern-Ypsilon, uvulars in Proto-Continental-Ypsilon, and remain glottal in Proto-Central-Ypsilon.

As for the capital/lowercase thing, I figure I could make some substitutions and work everything out if I wanted to. Maybe <Ɔ> for the capital <ɤ> and <Ɨ> for <ɪ>, with <Ɔ̃> and <Ɨ̃> for the nasalized versions? There are other letters that don't have conventional upper case forms, but you get the idea.

But I do personally prefer the aesthetic of using all lowercase letters, as I believe we've discussed before. For me, it gives a language a little bit more of a "reconstructed protolang" feel to it, if that makes any sense.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 05 Feb 2015 10:55

shimobaatar wrote:And I can't pronounce them myself, either. In fact, I'm pretty sure that true syllabic stops are impossible for any human being to pronounce (I could be wrong about that, but they're at least extremely uncommon if not unattested in natlangs)…
I think it's commonly accepted (if not, then at least some scholars accept) that in some 'lects of English there's a syllabic /b̩/ in / ˈpɻɐ b̩ːb ˌli /.
(Other 'lects pronounce the same word / ˈpɻɐ bə̆b ˌli /. Yet others pronounce it / ˈpɻɐ bli /.)
In other words, syllabic stops are attested in natlangs.
I agree they seem to be rare; at least I can rarely think of many in the languages I know.

Clicks and ejectives are always less sonorant than voiced stops (maybe than any stops?). If an unstressed syllable consists of a click or ejective and a voiced stop, the voiced stop will be the nuclear consonant of that syllable. (Usually, anyway.)

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Avjunza » 05 Feb 2015 13:51

My first try at complex consonant clusters.
The second table is all possible onset clusters.
Image
Link
The voicing of the consonants in column 2 depends on the voicing of their column 1 counterpart.
Anything wrong with that other than presentation?
Image

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 05 Feb 2015 15:41

A little idea for a Hííenununóóoþa relative inspired by Ojibwe, Cheyenne and my own conlang Nınuıntı:

/m n ŋ/ m n ng
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/ p t k
/p~b t~d k~g ʔ/ b d g '
/sʰ s~z h/ s z h
/r~l/ r/l
/j w/ ı w

/a e o/ a e o
/aː eː iː oː/ aa ae ee oo

glide+vowel sequences
/ja jaː jo joː/ ıa ıaa ıo ıoo
/wa waː we weː/ wa waa we wae

diphthongs
/e̯o o̯e/ eo oe
maybe more, maybe none at all...

Some phonotactics

Quite a lot of clusters probably. I'm thinking liquids and nasals plus stops, and /h ʔ/ will be able to cluster with pretty much anything. Words can end in a vowel or any of /m n ŋ p~b t~d k~g s~z r~l/.

Some morfofo

Clusters /tʰj tj~dj/ become [t͡sʰ t͡s~d͡z] - I haven't decided whether to reflect this in the orthography
Clusters /kʰj kj~gj/ become [cʰ c~ɟ] - this probably won't be reflected in the orthography
je → iː
wo → oː

I may make a speedlang thread with this. Or not.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 05 Feb 2015 20:23

eldin raigmore wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:And I can't pronounce them myself, either. In fact, I'm pretty sure that true syllabic stops are impossible for any human being to pronounce (I could be wrong about that, but they're at least extremely uncommon if not unattested in natlangs)…
I think it's commonly accepted (if not, then at least some scholars accept) that in some 'lects of English there's a syllabic /b̩/ in / ˈpɻɐ b̩ːb ˌli /.
(Other 'lects pronounce the same word / ˈpɻɐ bə̆b ˌli /. Yet others pronounce it / ˈpɻɐ bli /.)
In other words, syllabic stops are attested in natlangs.
I agree they seem to be rare; at least I can rarely think of many in the languages I know.

Clicks and ejectives are always less sonorant than voiced stops (maybe than any stops?). If an unstressed syllable consists of a click or ejective and a voiced stop, the voiced stop will be the nuclear consonant of that syllable. (Usually, anyway.)
Well, there you go, then. Thanks.
Avjunza wrote:My first try at complex consonant clusters.
The second table is all possible onset clusters.
Image
Link
The voicing of the consonants in column 2 depends on the voicing of their column 1 counterpart.
Anything wrong with that other than presentation?
It's fine as far as I can tell.

DesEsseintes wrote:A little idea for a Hííenununóóoþa relative inspired by Ojibwe, Cheyenne and my own conlang Nınuıntı:
Looks nice. [:)] I especially like the way you romanize the long front vowels.
DesEsseintes wrote:Clusters /tʰj tj~dj/ become [t͡sʰ t͡s~d͡z] - I haven't decided whether to reflect this in the orthography
Hmm… both tıa dıa and something like ca ȷa look good to me for [t͡sʰ t͡s~d͡z]. Tough decision.
DesEsseintes wrote:/r~l/ r/l
When is this pronounced/written as a lateral, and when it is pronounced/written as a rhotic?
DesEsseintes wrote:diphthongs
/e̯o o̯e/ eo oe
maybe more, maybe none at all...
It's up to you, but I'd recommend leaving it at that.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Dezinaa » 13 Feb 2015 04:01

/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p t k (ʔ)/ <p t k>
/f s ʃ x~h/ <f s sh h>
/l j w/ <l y w>
/i u ɛ ɔ ɑ/ <i u e o a>
C(A)V(A)(C)

/ʔ/ is only marginally phonemic, as it only appears between vowels. It could be that it is allophonically inserted between vowels.
Stops become voiced after nasals.
/h/ and /x/ are in free variation, except at the end of a syllable, where they are both realized as [x].

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 13 Feb 2015 05:38

Dezinaa wrote:C(A)V(A)(C)
Does (A) stand for
http://aveneca.com/cbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=711&start=142 wrote:A = any fricative, affricate, nasal, approximant, or /ʡ/
?

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 13 Feb 2015 05:41

eldin raigmore wrote:
Dezinaa wrote:C(A)V(A)(C)
Does (A) stand for
http://aveneca.com/cbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=711&start=142 wrote:A = any fricative, affricate, nasal, approximant, or /ʡ/
?
I assumed it meant approximant in this case.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 13 Feb 2015 06:04

shimobaatar wrote:I assumed it meant approximant in this case.
Well, I think it's "dangerous" to rely on the readers' ability to assume. I think Dezinaa should explicitly say what it stands for in this case, since it doesn't seem to stand for the same thing in the two latest posts to this thread in which it was used (post #142 and another post (#160) earlier on the same page).

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 13 Feb 2015 06:08

If you say so.

Although I can't seem to find "A =" on either of the pages you linked to. I didn't see it while reading through the posts, and my browser's search function gave me no results.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 13 Feb 2015 06:48

shimobaatar wrote:If you say so.
Although I can't seem to find "A =" on either of the pages you linked to. I didn't see it while reading through the posts, and my browser's search function gave me no results.
I couldn't find it through the search function either; I had to page through the thread looking for it.
Also, the "post numbers" seem to change whenever someone adds a new post.
Look at those pages and the one before and after each (I don't think yet you need to look at two before or two after, but probably soon …).
I used Safari's "Find (on this page)" function for search-string

Code: Select all

(A)
.

Another possible source of difficulty; I have my CBB set up to display the most recent posts first. IIANM the default is to display the most recent posts last; but in any case if you display them last instead of first then following my links may not lead you to the same places they lead me.

FInd:

Code: Select all

shimobaatar 	 Post subject: Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread 		 Posted: Mon 08 Dec 2014, 23:26 
Shemtov 	 	 Post subject: Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread 		 Posted: Thu 27 Nov 2014, 20:39
Dezinaa 	 	 Post subject: Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread 		 Posted: Tue 18 Nov 2014, 13:24

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Dezinaa » 13 Feb 2015 14:08

I usually use A to refer to an approximant, in this case /l j w/.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 13 Feb 2015 19:10

Dezinaa wrote:I usually use A to refer to an approximant, in this case /l j w/.
Thanks.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 15 Feb 2015 18:29

A huge monster table I made of the updated TLFKAT phonology. I hope it displays better for you than it does for me. [:S]

Code: Select all

LABIAL    ALVEOLAR  PALATO-   RETROFLEX VELAR     LABIALZD  GLOTTAL
                    ALVEOLAR                      VELAR   

p pʰ b    t tʰ d                        k kʰ      kʷ kʷʰ    ʔ ʔʰ ʔʷ ʔʷʰ

p͡m̥ p͡m̥ʰ    t͡n̥ t͡n̥ʰ                        k͡ŋ̊ k͡ŋ̊ʰ    k͡ŋ̊ʷ k͡ŋ̊ʷʰ
m̥ m       n̥ n                           ŋ̊ ŋ       ŋ̊ʷ ŋʷ

p͡ʂ p͡ʂʰ    t͡s t͡sʰ    t͡ʃ t͡ʃʰ    k͡ʂ k͡ʂʰ
          s z       ʃ ʒ       ʂ ʐ~ɻ

p͡ʟ̝̊ p͡ʟ̝̊ʰ    t͡ɬ t͡ɬʰ                        k͡ʟ̝̊ k͡ʟ̝̊ʰ    k͡ʟ̝̊ʷ k͡ʟ̝̊ʷʰ 
          ɬ l                           ʟ̝̊ ʟ       ʟ̝̊ʷ ʟʷ

                    j                   ɰ         w

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