Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

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Nachtuil
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Nachtuil » 23 Aug 2017 22:09

stonyhonu wrote:Try this: https://gleb.000024.org/

edit: My first comment in months or years and I realize it's on the anniversary of the day I signed up. Awesome.
Ah thanks! Happy anniversary then :) Welcome back.

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 24 Aug 2017 03:28

Concerning phonology;
A random question. (Or two!)

1. Is it naturalistic, and/or realistic, for a language to have a rule ("liquid dissimilation", maybe, or some such term), that:
*** A word cannot contain two rhotic liquids without a lateral liquid appearing somewhere between them; and
*** a word cannot contain two lateral liquids without a rhotic liquid appearing somewhere between them?


2. Can a language naturalistically and/or realistically have different syllable structures depending where in the word syllables come?
For instance, is the following a reasonable syllable structure?
*** One-syllable words have the maximal skeleton (C)(C)V(C)(C)
*** First syllables of words with two or more syllables have the maximal skeleton (C)(C)V(C)
*** Last syllables of words with two or more syllables have the maximal skeleton (C)V(C)(C)
*** Medial (i.e. not first and not last) syllables of words with three or more syllables have the maximal skeleton (C)V(C)

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cedh
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by cedh » 24 Aug 2017 08:33

eldin raigmore wrote:Concerning phonology;
A random question. (Or two!)

1. Is it naturalistic, and/or realistic, for a language to have a rule ("liquid dissimilation", maybe, or some such term), that:
*** A word cannot contain two rhotic liquids without a lateral liquid appearing somewhere between them; and
*** a word cannot contain two lateral liquids without a rhotic liquid appearing somewhere between them?
Yes. (It's definitely plausible for a rule like this to operate within a prosodic foot. For a language where words usually aren't longer than a foot, it's thus also plausible to operate at the word level. For a language which frequently has words longer than one foot though, the rule might be suspended sometimes, e.g. when there's a foot boundary and a liquid-less stressed syllable between the two liquids in question. For a language with a significant percentage of words longer than two feet, even such a restricted rule would probably be limited to liquids in two directly adjacent feet.)
eldin raigmore wrote:2. Can a language naturalistically and/or realistically have different syllable structures depending where in the word syllables come?
For instance, is the following a reasonable syllable structure?
*** One-syllable words have the maximal skeleton (C)(C)V(C)(C)
*** First syllables of words with two or more syllables have the maximal skeleton (C)(C)V(C)
*** Last syllables of words with two or more syllables have the maximal skeleton (C)V(C)(C)
*** Medial (i.e. not first and not last) syllables of words with three or more syllables have the maximal skeleton (C)V(C)
Yes again. (Many languages allow syllable-internal clusters only word-initially, and many languages allow coda consonants only word-finally. I don't know of any specific language that allows coda clusters only word-finally, but I'm fairly sure there are a few such languages out there.)

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 25 Aug 2017 17:07

A kinda minimalistic thing inspired by Old Saxon and West Germanic more generally:

Phonemes/Pre-Stage

/m n ŋ/
/p t k/
/b d g/
/f s x/
/r/

/a e i o u/

Syllable structure: (C)(r)V(N)

Allophony/sound changes

First stage

All voiceless stops are aspirated; /r/ after a voiceless stop becomes voiceless.

Nasals assimilate to the place of the following consonant.

Identical voiced stops in successive syllables dissimilate; e.g. [bebe] > [bepe]

Second stage

[g] > [j] before front vowels

Word-medial stops geminate before /r/

Non-geminate /b d g f s/ > [v ð ɣ v z] postvocalically

/g/ > [ɣ] word-initially

Intervocalic /x/ > [h]

All consonants devoice word-finally

/k/ > [ts] before front vowels

I was going to make coda [ɣ] > [ː] be a change but then I realized the phonotactics were too simple

Examples:

/kilisa/ > [tsiliza]
/ungro/ > [uŋggro]
/dadum/ > [daðum̥]

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Parlox » 25 Aug 2017 20:39

A phonology i made for an algonquian inspired language.

/m mʷ n nʷ n̪ ɲ ɲʷ/ m m̌ n ň nn y y̌
/p t t̪ c k q/ p t tt k c q
/s/ s
/θ ɹ x/ th r x
/ʟ̠/ l

/i y u/ ı ı̌ u
/ɘ ɵ/ ǔ ǒ
/ɛ œ/ e o

Syllable structure is (C1)(C3)V(C2)
Any consonant besides n and θ can appear in the C1 position.
Only θ can appear in the C3 position
Any vowel can appear in the V position, but if two vowels are lined up the second vowel has to be a front vowel.
Only t k ɹ x ʟ̠ and n can appear in the C2 position.
Last edited by Parlox on 26 Aug 2017 02:40, edited 1 time in total.
  • :con: Cajun, a descendant of French spoken in Louisiana.
  • :con: Bàsupan, loosely inspired by Amharic.
  • :con: Oddúhath Claire, a fusion of Welsh and Arabic.

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DesEsseintes
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 26 Aug 2017 02:00

Parlox wrote:A phonology i made for an algonquian inspired language.

/m mʷ n nʷ n̪ ɲ ɲʷ/ m m̌ n ň nn y y̌
/p t t̪ c k q/ p t tt k c q
/s/ s
/θ ɹ x/ th r x
/ʟ̠/ l

/i y u/ ı ı̌ u
/ɘ ɵ/ ǔ ǒ
/ɛ œ/ e o

Any consonant besides n and θ can appear in the C1 position.
Any vowel can appear in the V position, but if two vowels are lined up the second vowel has to be a front vowel.
Only t k ɹ x ʟ̠ and n can appear in the C2 position.
What's the syllable structure? I hope it's not CVC cos then it would seem θ is disallowed everywhere.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Parlox » 26 Aug 2017 02:39

DesEsseintes wrote:
Parlox wrote:A phonology i made for an algonquian inspired language.

/m mʷ n nʷ n̪ ɲ ɲʷ/ m m̌ n ň nn y y̌
/p t t̪ c k q/ p t tt k c q
/s/ s
/θ ɹ x/ th r x
/ʟ̠/ l

/i y u/ ı ı̌ u
/ɘ ɵ/ ǔ ǒ
/ɛ œ/ e o

Any consonant besides n and θ can appear in the C1 position.
Any vowel can appear in the V position, but if two vowels are lined up the second vowel has to be a front vowel.
Only t k ɹ x ʟ̠ and n can appear in the C2 position.
What's the syllable structure? I hope it's not CVC cos then it would seem θ is disallowed everywhere.
I thought i posted the syllable structure, it is (C)(C)V(C). I fixed the post
  • :con: Cajun, a descendant of French spoken in Louisiana.
  • :con: Bàsupan, loosely inspired by Amharic.
  • :con: Oddúhath Claire, a fusion of Welsh and Arabic.

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Aug 2017 04:26

@cedh:
Is the "correction" below, actually correct?
cedh wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:2. Can a language naturalistically and/or realistically have different syllable structures depending where in the word syllables come?
Yes again. (Many languages allow syllable-initialinternal clusters only word-initially, and many languages allow coda clustersconsonants only word-finally. I don't know of any specific language that allows coda clusters only word-finally, but I'm fairly sure there are a few such languages out there.)
(I suppose anyone who knows the answer could post it!)

BTW#1: @everyone: Does Spanish have the "liquid dissimilation" (or whatever to call it) rule I asked about in my first question?
thus "peligro" or "periglo" but not "peliglo" nor "perigro"?
and thus "peligrino" or "pilgrim" but not "peregrine" nor "peregrino"?

BTW#2: @everyone: Does Polish have the syllable structure I asked about in my second question?
That is, onset-clusters allowed only in word-initial syllables, and coda-clusters allowed only in word-final syllables?

Jampot911
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Jampot911 » 26 Aug 2017 19:14

I've nae been able to post anything for a while (due to my Higher exams and such) but here's one I've come up with [:D]
/m n ŋ/
/p t k/
/b d ɡ/
/ɓ̰ ɗ̰/
/t͡s d͡z ɗ͡z̰/
/s z h/
/w l/

/i e ɑ u/

Allophony
/s z/ are before a high vowel, [θ ð] elsewhere
/p b/ become [ɸ β] before or after another obstruent; they geminate if there are two of them — a /pb/ becomes [ββ] and /bp/ becomes [ɸɸ]
Vowels become nasal before a nasal consonant
Vowels after an implosive become creaky-voiced
/w/ becomes [ʋ̰] before or after an implosive

Any advice to make this more realistic would be greatly appreciated!
What can I say? I like making stuff up.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Osia » 27 Aug 2017 03:04

Jampot911 wrote:I've nae been able to post anything for a while (due to my Higher exams and such) but here's one I've come up with [:D]
/m n ŋ/
/p t k/
/b d ɡ/
/ɓ̰ ɗ̰/
/t͡s d͡z ɗ͡z̰/
/s z h/
/w l/

/i e ɑ u/

Allophony
/s z/ are before a high vowel, [θ ð] elsewhere
/p b/ become [ɸ β] before or after another obstruent; they geminate if there are two of them — a /pb/ becomes [ββ] and /bp/ becomes [ɸɸ]
Vowels become nasal before a nasal consonant
Vowels after an implosive become creaky-voiced
/w/ becomes [ʋ̰] before or after an implosive

Any advice to make this more realistic would be greatly appreciated!


Ooh! I like it. You don't see many African-Inspired conlangs. Everything looks pretty naturalistic, the only suggestion I might have is to change the geminated fricatives to geminated stops, since they tend to be unstable, but I'm not completely sure on that.

[hr][/hr]

A language family I've been thinking of developing. Inspiration comes from various languages with small inventories, from Arapaho to Pirahã to various Oceanic languages to some Papuan languages.

Proto Vaja
/p t tʃ k q/
/v~w ð ʒ~j ɣ ʁ/
/m n/

/i iː e eː a aː o oː u uː/
/˥ ˨/

The syllable structure is (s)(C)(D)V(:)(V)(C), where D stands for any voiced continuant.

Baa:

/b t k ʔ/
/ɸ s h/
/m n~l/
/w j/

/i iː ɪ ɪː e eː ɛ ɛː a aː ɔ ɔː o oː ʊ ʊː u uː/
/ĩ ĩː ɛ̃ ɛ̃ː ɔ̃ ɔ̃ː ũ ũː/
/˥ ˨ ˧˥ ˥˩ ˥˦ ˥˨˦/

Some Yoruba influences in the phonology here. The phonemes /m/ and /b/ remain unmerged, but merge in some dialects. There is also harmony between the tense and lax vowels, with /a/ being neutral.

Unnamed 1:
The following three languages are more closely related than the first, but are still rather independent.

/p t tʷ~tʙ̥ k kʷ ʔ/
/s sʷ x~h xʷ~ʍ/
/m~nʷ n/
/lʷ~ɫ ɾ ɰ w/

/a aː e i iː o u uː ə/
/˥ ˨ ˨˥ ˦˩/

Unnamed 2:

/p t k kʋ/
/b~β̞ d~ð̞ g~ɰ gʋ~ʋ/
/h/
/m n/

/i iː e eː ɑ ɑː o oː ɨ~ɯ~ɣ̩ ʋ̩ ð̩ β̩ m̩ n̩/
/˥ ˩ ˧/

Unnamed 3:

/t~k ts~s tɕ~j tɬ kʷ ʔ/
/h/
/v~w n~l/

/i e ɛ a ə ɔ o u/
/ɛ̃ ə̃ ɑ̃ ɔ̃/
/˥ ˧ ˨˩ ˦˨ ˩˥/
English: :mrgreen:
Spanish: [:'(]
Want to Learn: All other languages [:P]

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Jampot911
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Jampot911 » 27 Aug 2017 11:52

Osia wrote:
Jampot911 wrote:I've nae been able to post anything for a while (due to my Higher exams and such) but here's one I've come up with [:D]
/m n ŋ/
/p t k/
/b d ɡ/
/ɓ̰ ɗ̰/
/t͡s d͡z ɗ͡z̰/
/s z h/
/w l/

/i e ɑ u/

Allophony
/s z/ are before a high vowel, [θ ð] elsewhere
/p b/ become [ɸ β] before or after another obstruent; they geminate if there are two of them — a /pb/ becomes [ββ] and /bp/ becomes [ɸɸ]
Vowels become nasal before a nasal consonant
Vowels after an implosive become creaky-voiced
/w/ becomes [ʋ̰] before or after an implosive

Any advice to make this more realistic would be greatly appreciated!


Ooh! I like it. You don't see many African-Inspired conlangs. Everything looks pretty naturalistic, the only suggestion I might have is to change the geminated fricatives to geminated stops, since they tend to be unstable, but I'm not completely sure on that.

[hr][/hr]

A language family I've been thinking of developing. Inspiration comes from various languages with small inventories, from Arapaho to Pirahã to various Oceanic languages to some Papuan languages.

Proto Vaja
/p t tʃ k q/
/v~w ð ʒ~j ɣ ʁ/
/m n/

/i iː e eː a aː o oː u uː/
/˥ ˨/

The syllable structure is (s)(C)(D)V(:)(V)(C), where D stands for any voiced continuant.

Baa:

/b t k ʔ/
/ɸ s h/
/m n~l/
/w j/

/i iː ɪ ɪː e eː ɛ ɛː a aː ɔ ɔː o oː ʊ ʊː u uː/
/ĩ ĩː ɛ̃ ɛ̃ː ɔ̃ ɔ̃ː ũ ũː/
/˥ ˨ ˧˥ ˥˩ ˥˦ ˥˨˦/

Some Yoruba influences in the phonology here. The phonemes /m/ and /b/ remain unmerged, but merge in some dialects. There is also harmony between the tense and lax vowels, with /a/ being neutral.

Unnamed 1:
The following three languages are more closely related than the first, but are still rather independent.

/p t tʷ~tʙ̥ k kʷ ʔ/
/s sʷ x~h xʷ~ʍ/
/m~nʷ n/
/lʷ~ɫ ɾ ɰ w/

/a aː e i iː o u uː ə/
/˥ ˨ ˨˥ ˦˩/

Unnamed 2:

/p t k kʋ/
/b~β̞ d~ð̞ g~ɰ gʋ~ʋ/
/h/
/m n/

/i iː e eː ɑ ɑː o oː ɨ~ɯ~ɣ̩ ʋ̩ ð̩ β̩ m̩ n̩/
/˥ ˩ ˧/

Unnamed 3:

/t~k ts~s tɕ~j tɬ kʷ ʔ/
/h/
/v~w n~l/

/i e ɛ a ə ɔ o u/
/ɛ̃ ə̃ ɑ̃ ɔ̃/
/˥ ˧ ˨˩ ˦˨ ˩˥/


Ah, cheers mate, the change to geminated stops makes more sense now that I think about it. Plus they sound a bit better in my opinion! [:D]

Also, I must say I love "Unnamed 1" — all those labialised coronals sound so cool. And there's a bilabial trilled affricate, which'll always win you points in my book.
What can I say? I like making stuff up.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý » 27 Aug 2017 21:52

p t tʲ k
f θ θʲ x ʍ
s sʲ ʃ
m n nʲ ŋ
bm dn dnʲ gŋ
l r
dl dr
j w
gʷw

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Osia » 29 Aug 2017 00:53

A phonology I thought up after reading a bit on the Ryukyuan languages.

/t' tɕ' k' ʔ/
/p t tɕ k/
/ɸ s ɕ x~h/
/ɸː sː ɕː xː/
/m n/
/mː nː/
/β̞ z̞ j ɣ̞/
/bː dː dʑː gː/

/a aː i iː ɨ ɨː ɨs ɨsː u uː/

CN(C)

Notes:
The vowel ɨs is a sulcalized vowel, that is it has a grooved or silibant like air passage way.
All consonants except stops and ejectives can occur syllabic, where the syllabic versions of /β̞ z̞ j ɣ̞/ are /u ɨs i ɨ/.
The ejectives are derived from geminate stops, where /p'/ > /k'/ > /ʔ/.
In some dialects the ejective consonants merge with the plain stops, producing a low tone on the following vowel.
English: :mrgreen:
Spanish: [:'(]
Want to Learn: All other languages [:P]

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Parlox » 29 Aug 2017 02:28

A new phoneme inventory and orthography heavily inspired by macedonian, i haven't figured out how the syllables will work yet.

/m n n̪/ m n ň
/p b t̪ d̪ c ɟ k g/ p b t d y y̌ k g
/t̪͡θ d̪͡ð t̪͡s d̪͡z̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ th dh ts dz č ǰ
/s z ʃ ʒ/ s z š ž
/f v ɹ j x/ f v r c h
/ɬ ɬ̪/ l ľ

/i u/ ı u
/ɘ o/ ǒ o
/ɛ ʌ/ e ǔ
/a/ a
  • :con: Cajun, a descendant of French spoken in Louisiana.
  • :con: Bàsupan, loosely inspired by Amharic.
  • :con: Oddúhath Claire, a fusion of Welsh and Arabic.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Nachtuil » 29 Aug 2017 02:52

Porphyrogenitos wrote:A kinda minimalistic thing inspired by Old Saxon and West Germanic more generally:

Phonemes/Pre-Stage

/m n ŋ/
/p t k/
/b d g/
/f s x/
/r/

/a e i o u/

Syllable structure: (C)(r)V(N)

Allophony/sound changes

First stage

All voiceless stops are aspirated; /r/ after a voiceless stop becomes voiceless.

Nasals assimilate to the place of the following consonant.

Identical voiced stops in successive syllables dissimilate; e.g. [bebe] > [bepe]

Second stage

[g] > [j] before front vowels

Word-medial stops geminate before /r/

Non-geminate /b d g f s/ > [v ð ɣ v z] postvocalically

/g/ > [ɣ] word-initially

Intervocalic /x/ > [h]

All consonants devoice word-finally

/k/ > [ts] before front vowels

I was going to make coda [ɣ] > [ː] be a change but then I realized the phonotactics were too simple

Examples:

/kilisa/ > [tsiliza]
/ungro/ > [uŋggro]
/dadum/ > [daðum̥]
I love this so much! Can you provide more word examples? What kind of assimilation occurs if you have a word ending in a voiced stop before a voiceless one in the next syllable. Does the /k/ to /ts/ come from somewhere? It seems odd.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Clio » 29 Aug 2017 12:09

eldin raigmore wrote:BTW#1: @everyone: Does Spanish have the "liquid dissimilation" (or whatever to call it) rule I asked about in my first question?
thus "peligro" or "periglo" but not "peliglo" nor "perigro"?
and thus "peligrino" or "pilgrim" but not "peregrine" nor "peregrino"?
I think those changes from Latin were pretty inconsistent if not totally sporadic (peregrinus > peregrino, arbor > árbol), and peligro is an example of metathesis from periculum. (Although peregrino may be a cultismo; I don't have a good etymological dictionary.) In any case, the rule doesn't seem to be productive.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Shemtov » 30 Aug 2017 01:39

This is a relative of Fuheko and Karèwaho:

/p p: b t t: d ts t:s dz k k: g/ <p pp b t tt d c tc z̟ tch k kk g>
/ θ ð s z h/ <th dh s z h>
/m m: n n: / <m mm n nn >
/j ʋ/ <y v>
/l/ <l>


/i y u ɯ/ <i ü u ǔ>
/e ø ɘ o/ <e ö ě o>
/œ ɔ/ <ȍ ò>
/æ ɑ/ <ä a>

It has Front and Rounding harmony, with /ɘ/ being the unrounded back vowel for the mid-vowels, and /œ ɔ/ being the rounded version of /æ ɑ/.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by wintiver » 30 Aug 2017 03:16

Finally decided on a rough sketch of Proto-Archipelagic. But it is a night-fucking-mare to orthographize. It's got touches of Kabyle and Tlingit and I'm sure subconsciously many others.

Consonants
Nasals /m n ɲ~ŋ/
Voiceless Stops /p t̪ t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k kʷ q qʷ ʔ/
Voiced Stops /b d̪ d͡z d͡ɮ d͡ʒ g gʷ/
Ejectives /pʼ t̪ʼ t͡sʼ t͡ɬʼ t͡ʃʼ kʼ kʷʼ qʼ qʷʼ/
Voiceless Fricatives /s ɬ ʃ ç~x çʷ~xʷ χ χʷ ħ h/
Voiced Fricatives /v ɮ ʝ~ɣ ʝʷ~ɣʷ ʕ/
Ejective Fricatives /sʼ ɬʼ ʃʼ xʼ xʷʼ χʼ χʷʼ/
Voiceless Sonorants /r̥ ʍ/
Voiced Sonorants /r w/

Vowels
Short Vowels /i e̞ a o̞/
Long Vowels /iː eː aː oː/
Diphthongs /ai aːi/

Notes
  • I did not include geminate consonants in the list above but they are prevalent in Proto-Archipelagic. Geminates occur mostly in medial/intervocallic position. A small number of (mostly resononant) sounds can occur in non-medial position as geminates as well, namely /mː nː sː ɬː wː/ occur at onset and /r̥ː rː/ can occur at coda/final position albeit incredibly rare and dialectal. More common then final codas are syllabic trills - /r̥ː rː/ can form syllable nuclei.
    I am still unsure if the whole phonemic inventory will be able to be geminated. I am leaning against that. I may stick to a resononant-only series of geminates, but I need to work that out a bit more. I may make it so only coronal consonants can form geminates. Hmm...
  • Some of the above sounds are under-defined for their place of articulation.
    • For instance /ɲ~ŋ/ can be considered merely a "dorsal nasal" where it's phonic environment determines its realization. Namely, the dorsal nasal is realized as palatal /ɲ/ in onset position, and velar in coda /ŋ/. This can change if the final /ŋ/ abuts a following syllable which begins with a palatal/post-alveolar consonant.
    • The sounds /ç~x çʷ~xʷ/ are underdefined for their POA as well. The split in their usage is predicated on their proximity to front vowels which in PArch is /i e/. I am toying with shifting them from palatal-velar to perhaps velar-uvular and dropping the phonemic distinction between velar and uvular fricatives. But if I do that, I am unsure if I would keep the palatal fricatives or not, and they are growing on me. I like them a bit.
  • Generally the syllable structure is (C)(C)V(:)(C) but there are restrictions (listed next). It should be noted that CV, CVC, and VC syllable types are more common than CCVC syllables (and I'm going to say that perhaps CCV doesn't exist at all, at least in this stage of the language)
  • Consonant clusters occur only in roots and are restricted to CC- combinations at onset. The following are the allowable clusters: /sk skʷ skʼ skʷʼ sq sqʷ sqʼ sqʷʼ ɬk ɬkʷ ɬkʼ ɬkʷʼ ɬq ɬqʷ ɬqʼ ɬqʷʼ sχ sχʷ/ (those "sx" looking combinations are actually alveolar + uvular, but I suppose they could be allophonically velar too.
  • Ejectives can occur at both onset and coda and also maintain their labialization distinction. (I'm looking at you Tlingit, you beautiful monstrosity)
  • As for the vowels, the system is lifted off Navajo, save for the nasal vowels and tone, so maybe I just stole it from Dothraki? I don't know, I just know that I love /i e a o/. It is truly /i e a o/ as well even in stressed, long syllables /oː/ doesn't get any "tenser" and doesn't approach /u/ at all.

I have been thinking about how I am going to justify the pharyngeals, but since this will be a Proto-Language anyway, I don't need a ton of rationalization. But even in proto-languages I do like a tad bit of naturalistic diachronic work. Perhaps I can say that uvulars shifted to pharyngeal position and then were redeveloped into the language via contact languages or just through phonological processes.

Oh, and a question to anyone who is willing to answer. This is just a question of subjective preference but - what would be your thoughts on having /ç x χ ħ h/? This seems a bit much for even me, but there are cases where I can imagine having minimal pairs of words between /ç/ and/ x/, /x/ and /χ/, /χ/ and /ħ/, and /ħ/ and /h/ and I like that idea. But, I don't want to keep pushing the boundaries of phonemic maximalism.

My thought is maintaining either allophony between palatal and velar fricatives or velar and uvular fricatives. If you have an opinion, I'd love to hear it. Thank you.

Porphyrogenitos
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 30 Aug 2017 04:11

Nachtuil wrote:
I love this so much! Can you provide more word examples?
Thanks! And you can pretty much just come up with your own examples, if you wish, by following the syllable rules I described - it's just an idea, so none of the words actually mean anything. But some more example with phoneme combinations I hadn't used yet include:

/maxalas/ [mahalaz]
/gog/ [gox]
/adral/ [addral̥]
/kinib/ [tsinif]
/aba/ [ava]
Nachtuil wrote:
What kind of assimilation occurs if you have a word ending in a voiced stop before a voiceless one in the next syllable. Does the /k/ to /ts/ come from somewhere?
Oh, oops. I forgot I'd need to deal with this. In fact, I thought I'd eliminated it by having a simpler syllable structure, but yeah, word boundaries. I might as well make the syllable structure full CVC then. So I guess not too much happens - postvocalic fricatives and voiced stops are still lenited, so /abpa/ and /aska/ will still be [avpa] and [azka]. Actually, let's say a following voiceless stop blocks fricatives (but not voiced stops) from leniting. So /aska/ will be [aska]. The change of pre-consonantal [ɣ] to [ː] will go ahead, so /agma/ will be [aːma]. Basically, all the allophones ar eripe for phonemicization - all you need to do is delete the final vowels, and the difference between /aba/ [ava] and /ab/ [af] will no longer predictable - /av/ vs. /af/. And so on.
Nachtuil wrote:Does the /k/ to /ts/ come from somewhere? It seems odd.
It's the result of palatalization; it's actually quite typical - e.g. all of Gallo-Iberian Romance went through a /k/ > /ts/ shift before front vowels; Latin civitas became Spanish ciudad, French cité, Portuguese cidade, etc., all of which were once pronounced with an initial /ts/ before shifting to their modern pronunciations.

Vai
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Joined: 30 Aug 2017 03:56

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Vai » 30 Aug 2017 04:28

wintiver wrote:Finally decided on a rough sketch of Proto-Archipelagic. But it is a night-fucking-mare to orthographize. It's got touches of Kabyle and Tlingit and I'm sure subconsciously many others.

Consonants
Nasals /m n ɲ~ŋ/
Voiceless Stops /p t̪ t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k kʷ q qʷ ʔ/
Voiced Stops /b d̪ d͡z d͡ɮ d͡ʒ g gʷ/
Ejectives /pʼ t̪ʼ t͡sʼ t͡ɬʼ t͡ʃʼ kʼ kʷʼ qʼ qʷʼ/
Voiceless Fricatives /s ɬ ʃ ç~x çʷ~xʷ χ χʷ ħ h/
Voiced Fricatives /v ɮ ʝ~ɣ ʝʷ~ɣʷ ʕ/
Ejective Fricatives /sʼ ɬʼ ʃʼ xʼ xʷʼ χʼ χʷʼ/
Voiceless Sonorants /r̥ ʍ/
Voiced Sonorants /r w/

Vowels
Short Vowels /i e̞ a o̞/
Long Vowels /iː eː aː oː/
Diphthongs /ai aːi/

Notes
  • I did not include geminate consonants in the list above but they are prevalent in Proto-Archipelagic. Geminates occur mostly in medial/intervocallic position. A small number of (mostly resononant) sounds can occur in non-medial position as geminates as well, namely /mː nː sː ɬː wː/ occur at onset and /r̥ː rː/ can occur at coda/final position albeit incredibly rare and dialectal. More common then final codas are syllabic trills - /r̥ː rː/ can form syllable nuclei.
    I am still unsure if the whole phonemic inventory will be able to be geminated. I am leaning against that. I may stick to a resononant-only series of geminates, but I need to work that out a bit more. I may make it so only coronal consonants can form geminates. Hmm...
  • Some of the above sounds are under-defined for their place of articulation.
    • For instance /ɲ~ŋ/ can be considered merely a "dorsal nasal" where it's phonic environment determines its realization. Namely, the dorsal nasal is realized as palatal /ɲ/ in onset position, and velar in coda /ŋ/. This can change if the final /ŋ/ abuts a following syllable which begins with a palatal/post-alveolar consonant.
    • The sounds /ç~x çʷ~xʷ/ are underdefined for their POA as well. The split in their usage is predicated on their proximity to front vowels which in PArch is /i e/. I am toying with shifting them from palatal-velar to perhaps velar-uvular and dropping the phonemic distinction between velar and uvular fricatives. But if I do that, I am unsure if I would keep the palatal fricatives or not, and they are growing on me. I like them a bit.
  • Generally the syllable structure is (C)(C)V(:)(C) but there are restrictions (listed next). It should be noted that CV, CVC, and VC syllable types are more common than CCVC syllables (and I'm going to say that perhaps CCV doesn't exist at all, at least in this stage of the language)
  • Consonant clusters occur only in roots and are restricted to CC- combinations at onset. The following are the allowable clusters: /sk skʷ skʼ skʷʼ sq sqʷ sqʼ sqʷʼ ɬk ɬkʷ ɬkʼ ɬkʷʼ ɬq ɬqʷ ɬqʼ ɬqʷʼ sχ sχʷ/ (those "sx" looking combinations are actually alveolar + uvular, but I suppose they could be allophonically velar too.
  • Ejectives can occur at both onset and coda and also maintain their labialization distinction. (I'm looking at you Tlingit, you beautiful monstrosity)
  • As for the vowels, the system is lifted off Navajo, save for the nasal vowels and tone, so maybe I just stole it from Dothraki? I don't know, I just know that I love /i e a o/. It is truly /i e a o/ as well even in stressed, long syllables /oː/ doesn't get any "tenser" and doesn't approach /u/ at all.

I have been thinking about how I am going to justify the pharyngeals, but since this will be a Proto-Language anyway, I don't need a ton of rationalization. But even in proto-languages I do like a tad bit of naturalistic diachronic work. Perhaps I can say that uvulars shifted to pharyngeal position and then were redeveloped into the language via contact languages or just through phonological processes.

Oh, and a question to anyone who is willing to answer. This is just a question of subjective preference but - what would be your thoughts on having /ç x χ ħ h/? This seems a bit much for even me, but there are cases where I can imagine having minimal pairs of words between /ç/ and/ x/, /x/ and /χ/, /χ/ and /ħ/, and /ħ/ and /h/ and I like that idea. But, I don't want to keep pushing the boundaries of phonemic maximalism.

My thought is maintaining either allophony between palatal and velar fricatives or velar and uvular fricatives. If you have an opinion, I'd love to hear it. Thank you.
Well you could do this:

Nasals /m n ɲ~ŋ/ m - n - ń
Voiceless Stops /p t̪ t͡s t͡ɬ t͡ʃ k kʷ q qʷ ʔ/ p - t - c - tl - tś - k - ku - q - qu
Voiced Stops /b d̪ d͡z d͡ɮ d͡ʒ g gʷ/ b - d - v - dź - x - g - gu
Ejectives /pʼ t̪ʼ t͡sʼ t͡ɬʼ t͡ʃʼ kʼ kʷʼ qʼ qʷʼ/ pp - tt - cc - tll - ttś - kk - kku - qq - qqu
Voiceless Fricatives /s ɬ ʃ ç~x çʷ~xʷ χ χʷ ħ h/ s - l - ś - j - ju - y - yu - f - h
Voiced Fricatives /v ɮ ʝ~ɣ ʝʷ~ɣʷ ʕ/ w - ź - ğ - ğu - z
Ejective Fricatives /sʼ ɬʼ ʃʼ xʼ xʷʼ χʼ χʷʼ/ ss - ll - śs - jj - jju - yy - yyu
Voiceless Sonorants /r̥ ʍ/ hr - (add acute accent /ʍa/ > á)
Voiced Sonorants /r w/ r - (add grave accent /wa/ > à)


Short Vowels /i e̞ a o̞/ i - e - a - o
Long Vowels /iː eː aː oː/ ii - ee - aa - oo
Diphthongs /ai aːi/ ạ - aạ

Part of this is from my own conlang; the double consonants for ejectives.

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