Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

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Porphyrogenitos
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 01 Dec 2018 06:53

Rotokas-esque

Code: Select all

pa  pi  pu    pã  pĩ  pũ    ba  bi  bu    mã  mĩ  mũ
ta  si  tu    tã  sĩ  tũ    da  di  du    nã  nĩ  nũ
ka  ki  ku    kã  kĩ  kũ    ga  gi  gu    ŋã  ŋĩ  ŋũ
paː piː puː   pãː pĩː pũː   baː biː buː   mãː mĩː mũː
taː siː tuː   tãː sĩː tũː   daː diː duː   nãː nĩː nũː
kaː kiː kuː   kãː kĩː kũː   gaː giː guː   ŋãː ŋĩː ŋũː
a   i   u     ã   ĩ   ũ
aː  iː  uː    ãː  ĩː  ũː 
As one may note, underlying /ti/ is [si]

The voiced non-nasal plosives are realized as [β ɾ ɣ] in non-initial position (this is always the same as intervocalic position)

Vowel harmony exists; a word may contain /i a/ or /u a/; harmony is almost always progressive (grammar is mainly suffixing)

Hiatus is forbidden; it is avoided (whether in morphophonemics, sandhi, or loaning) by either deletion or total assimilation

i.e.

/p t~s k/
/b~β~m d~ɾ~n g~ɣ~ŋ/

/a i u/ with contrastive length/nasalization
(C)V syllables

wintiver
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by wintiver » 03 Dec 2018 00:08

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
01 Dec 2018 06:53
Rotokas-esque

Code: Select all

pa  pi  pu    pã  pĩ  pũ    ba  bi  bu    mã  mĩ  mũ
ta  si  tu    tã  sĩ  tũ    da  di  du    nã  nĩ  nũ
ka  ki  ku    kã  kĩ  kũ    ga  gi  gu    ŋã  ŋĩ  ŋũ
paː piː puː   pãː pĩː pũː   baː biː buː   mãː mĩː mũː
taː siː tuː   tãː sĩː tũː   daː diː duː   nãː nĩː nũː
kaː kiː kuː   kãː kĩː kũː   gaː giː guː   ŋãː ŋĩː ŋũː
a   i   u     ã   ĩ   ũ
aː  iː  uː    ãː  ĩː  ũː 
As one may note, underlying /ti/ is [si]

The voiced non-nasal plosives are realized as [β ɾ ɣ] in non-initial position (this is always the same as intervocalic position)

Vowel harmony exists; a word may contain /i a/ or /u a/; harmony is almost always progressive (grammar is mainly suffixing)

Hiatus is forbidden; it is avoided (whether in morphophonemics, sandhi, or loaning) by either deletion or total assimilation

i.e.

/p t~s k/
/b~β~m d~ɾ~n g~ɣ~ŋ/

/a i u/ with contrastive length/nasalization
(C)V syllables
Are there enough syllables to allow for complex language? It seems like the ragged lower edge of minimalism. (I also don't mean this as a harsh critique, I am sincerely curious if this paucity of phonemes could work especially with vowel harmony which further restricts combinations).

Maybe if you threw in like a 3-tone system? Hell, even a two-tone system would be helpful in delineating the sounds.

I have been tweaking and retweaking a system which uses apical/laminal distinction in the coronal series and has a alveo-palatal POA which is distinct from a true palatal POA. Though not my initial intention, it is very roughly like Basque and Mandarin in terms of it's consonantal inventory. I just keep wondering if it's naturalistic enough. It's bugging me.

m n̻ ɲ ŋ
p t̻ c k
b d̻ ɟ g
f s̻ s̺ ɬ̺ ɕ ç x h
v z̻ z̺ ʑ ɣ
r̥ ʍ
r l̺ j w

I am also heavily debating on having at least a voiceless series of affricates /t̪s̻ t̺s̺ tɕ/. My main concern with this (besides a nightmare orthography problem) is that /tɕ/ and /c/ are quite similar, I feel like this distinction would be unstable at best. But in terms of complete series it would be nice to have all the coronals and the alveo-palatal affricates. Any thoughts on that would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Shemtov » 03 Dec 2018 02:01

Latverian, a Marvel Fanlang, that's a Hungarian influenced dialect of Romani:
/p pʰ b t tʰ d t͡s t͡ʃ c ɟ k kʰ g/ <p ph b t th d c cs ty gy k kh
/m n/ <m n>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/ <f v sz z s zs h>
/l r j/ <l r j>

/i u e o ə a/ <i u é o e a>
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by sangi39 » 03 Dec 2018 02:27

wintiver wrote:
03 Dec 2018 00:08
Porphyrogenitos wrote:
01 Dec 2018 06:53
Rotokas-esque

Code: Select all

pa  pi  pu    pã  pĩ  pũ    ba  bi  bu    mã  mĩ  mũ
ta  si  tu    tã  sĩ  tũ    da  di  du    nã  nĩ  nũ
ka  ki  ku    kã  kĩ  kũ    ga  gi  gu    ŋã  ŋĩ  ŋũ
paː piː puː   pãː pĩː pũː   baː biː buː   mãː mĩː mũː
taː siː tuː   tãː sĩː tũː   daː diː duː   nãː nĩː nũː
kaː kiː kuː   kãː kĩː kũː   gaː giː guː   ŋãː ŋĩː ŋũː
a   i   u     ã   ĩ   ũ
aː  iː  uː    ãː  ĩː  ũː 
As one may note, underlying /ti/ is [si]

The voiced non-nasal plosives are realized as [β ɾ ɣ] in non-initial position (this is always the same as intervocalic position)

Vowel harmony exists; a word may contain /i a/ or /u a/; harmony is almost always progressive (grammar is mainly suffixing)

Hiatus is forbidden; it is avoided (whether in morphophonemics, sandhi, or loaning) by either deletion or total assimilation

i.e.

/p t~s k/
/b~β~m d~ɾ~n g~ɣ~ŋ/

/a i u/ with contrastive length/nasalization
(C)V syllables
Are there enough syllables to allow for complex language? It seems like the ragged lower edge of minimalism. (I also don't mean this as a harsh critique, I am sincerely curious if this paucity of phonemes could work especially with vowel harmony which further restricts combinations).

Maybe if you threw in like a 3-tone system? Hell, even a two-tone system would be helpful in delineating the sounds.
In all fairness, (Central) Rotokas has a total of just 35 possible syllables, or 70 if you consider vowel length to be phonemically distinct, which is fewer on both counts that the Rotokas-inspired language Porphyrogenitos was going for.

Vowel harmony was my main issue, but then I'm not actually sure that's all that much of a problem considering there are some native Australian languages that have similar types of vowel harmony (Warlpiri, IIRC, sort of "forbids" words containing /i/ and /u/ from appearing in adjacent syllables, and that similarly only has /i u a/ with contrastive length.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 03 Dec 2018 03:48

Yes, 84 syllables oughtta be plenty.

Leaving out the onsetless syllables, (because Porphyrogenitos wants to ban hiatus), there are still 72 CV syllables.
That would make 84 * 72 = 6048 two-syllable whatever’s; and 84 * 72 * 72 = 435,456 three-syllable combos.

Most quotidian conversations need only 3000 to 5000 words.

For any single field of expertise, most expert conversations don’t need more than 50,000 different words.

Most conlangs don’t get to 50,000 words.

English has fewer than 300,000 roots.

Does that help answer the questions? I hope it did!
Edit: I forgot to allow for the fact that a nasal vowel can’t immediately precede a nasal consonant. That would cut down some on the number of combinations; but not enough to change the conclusion that this inventory is sufficient.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 03 Dec 2018 08:05, edited 2 times in total.

wintiver
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by wintiver » 03 Dec 2018 05:28

eldin raigmore wrote:
03 Dec 2018 03:48
(Useful information written by Eldin Raigmore)
Does that help answer the questions? I hope it did!
Yeah it definitely did. Instead of going by a gut feeling I should've crunched the numbers to figure that that was enough phonemic information to make that work.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 03 Dec 2018 07:22

wintiver wrote:
03 Dec 2018 00:08

Are there enough syllables to allow for complex language? It seems like the ragged lower edge of minimalism. (I also don't mean this as a harsh critique, I am sincerely curious if this paucity of phonemes could work especially with vowel harmony which further restricts combinations).

Maybe if you threw in like a 3-tone system? Hell, even a two-tone system would be helpful in delineating the sounds.
Yeah, tone probably would be a good addition. But 66 syllables should still be enough - Hawai'ian only has 80 contrastive syllables (its dipthongs are all analyzable as vowel sequences) - and some varieties of Hawai'ian at least partially merged /l/ with /n/, potentially knocking that down to 70.

And in fact, Rotokas itself (Central Rotokas, which has no nasals) - has just six consonants and only permits (C)V syllables, with a five-vowel system with contrastive length. That gives 70 syllables. And Aita Rotokas has 9 consonants (with nasals) but apparently no contrastive vowel length, giving, it would seem, just 50 contrastive syllables.

So a language with just 66 syllables is certainly workable and plausible.

EDIT: oops, I apparently missed that whole discussion above. Yes, everything everyone else said, too

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » 03 Dec 2018 08:06

I forgot to allow for the fact that a nasal vowel can’t immediately precede a nasal consonant.
(Or anyway languages seem not to usually distinguish a nasal vowel from an oral-only vowel just before a nasal consonant.)

That would cut down some on the number of combinations; but not enough to change the conclusion that this inventory is sufficient.

I need to subtract 24 * 18 = 432 bisyllables from my 6048 result; leaving 5616 bisyllables.
Still more than enough to support most everyday discourses.

The number of trisyllables would also be reduced. But there would still be plenty.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » 06 Dec 2018 13:00

Extremely minimalist
/p t k s h m n j i ʉ u e o a/ p t k s h m n j i ů u e o a
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » 08 Dec 2018 00:34

/t k ʔ/
/t͡ɬ’ t͡ʃ’ k’ q’/
/ɬ ʃ χ h/
/m~w n j/
/mˀ~wˀ nˀ jˀ/

/i u/
/a/

Vowels may be long or short, and long vowels may have either a rising or a falling tone.

Syllable structure is CV(C), where coda C is restricted to /t k ɬ ʃ χ n/. Some affixes glottalise a preceding consonant. This procedes in the following manner: /t k ɬ ʃ χ n/ > /ʔ k’ t͡ɬ’ t͡ʃ’ q’ nˀ/.

/w/ and its glottalised counterpart are pronounced as nasal when immediately following /n/ and optionally word-initially.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » 10 Dec 2018 01:15

3 languages
#1 proto lang
/p b t d ʈ ɖ c ɟ k g/ p b t d ṭ ḍ ḱ ǵ k g
/f v θ ð s z ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ x ɣ h/ f v ť ď s z ṣ̌ ẓ̌ š ž ḵ ḡ h
/ʦ ʣ ʈʂ ɖʐ ʧ ʤ/ c ʒ č̣ ǯ̣ č ǯ
/m n ɳ ɲ ŋ/ m n ṇ ñ ṅ
/β̞ ʋ ð̞ ɻ j ɥ w ɰ ʁ̞/ ƀ ꝟ đ ɍ j ÿ w ẅ ǥ
/l ɭ ʎ/ l ḷ ɉ
/r ɽr/ r ṛ

/i u ʊ e o ʌ a/ i u ŭ e o ŏ a

Lang #2: Jran
/p b t d ɟ k g/ p b t d j k g
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x h/ f v s z š ž x h
/m n ŋ/ m n ñ
/j w/ y w
/r/ r
/l/ l
/ɺ/ ř

/i y ʉ ɯ u ɪ ʊ e ø ɘ ɤ o ə ɛ ʌ ɔ æ ɑ/ i ü ů ï u ĭ ŭ é ö ē ō e è o ò à a
/Vː/ V̄

Lang #3: Zeran
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g q
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x h/ f v s z x j h ħ
/ʦ ʣ ʧ ʤ/ c ƶ ȼ ɉ
/j w/ y w
/l/ l
/r/ r

/i y ɨ ɯ u ʊ̜ e ɤ o ə ɛ ʌ œ ɔ ɐ æ a ɑ/ i ʉ ē ī u ū é ō ó e è o ø ò á à a ā
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by LinguoFranco » 16 Dec 2018 03:55

/p t k/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/kʷ/
/s ʃ ɬ h/
/j w~ʋ ʍ/
/l r/
/t͡ʃ t͡ʃʰ/

/i iː u uː/
/ɛ eː ɔ oː/
/ə/
/a/

Still trying to figure out what sounds I actually like, but this should do for now. I do think it's a bit lacking in fricatives and I might want to do more with liquids. The syllable structure will be pretty simple, either CV or CVC. I don't know how unusual to have to have /kʷ/ but no other labialized consonant.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by wintiver » 20 Dec 2018 20:19

LinguoFranco wrote:
16 Dec 2018 03:55
/p t k/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/kʷ/
/s ʃ ɬ h/
/j w~ʋ ʍ/
/l r/
/t͡ʃ t͡ʃʰ/

/i iː u uː/
/ɛ eː ɔ oː/
/ə/
/a/

Still trying to figure out what sounds I actually like, but this should do for now. I do think it's a bit lacking in fricatives and I might want to do more with liquids. The syllable structure will be pretty simple, either CV or CVC. I don't know how unusual to have to have /kʷ/ but no other labialized consonant.
The labialized velar plosive /kʷ/ could be part of the unaspirated series. And for symmetry (and potentially naturalism), you can add on /kʷʰ/ which, in my opinion is a solid phoneme and would make a lot of sense in the context of the rest of your phonology.

I like the vowel system as well, it is moderately large, realistic and it's just nice. While I also absolutely LOVE, /ʍ/, I don't know if it is super realistic in the context. It could be /ɸ~ʍ/ like I think it is in Maori. That might be cool.

But I'd love to see you flesh this out. Depending on the specific of your phonotactics I think this would be a beautiful sounding language.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 21 Dec 2018 07:44

Something I’m toying with and not sure what - if anything - to do with yet:

/m n ŋ/
/m̥ n̥ ŋ̊/
/p t s k/
/pʰ tʰ sʰ kʰ/
/ʔ h/
/l/
/ɬ/
/w j ɰ/

/a e i o u ɤ ɯ/ + length and tone

(C)(G)V(C) where coda C is one of /ŋ ʔ h/

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by LinguoFranco » 21 Dec 2018 08:04

wintiver wrote:
20 Dec 2018 20:19
LinguoFranco wrote:
16 Dec 2018 03:55
/p t k/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/kʷ/
/s ʃ ɬ h/
/j w~ʋ ʍ/
/l r/
/t͡ʃ t͡ʃʰ/

/i iː u uː/
/ɛ eː ɔ oː/
/ə/
/a/

Still trying to figure out what sounds I actually like, but this should do for now. I do think it's a bit lacking in fricatives and I might want to do more with liquids. The syllable structure will be pretty simple, either CV or CVC. I don't know how unusual to have to have /kʷ/ but no other labialized consonant.
The labialized velar plosive /kʷ/ could be part of the unaspirated series. And for symmetry (and potentially naturalism), you can add on /kʷʰ/ which, in my opinion is a solid phoneme and would make a lot of sense in the context of the rest of your phonology.

I like the vowel system as well, it is moderately large, realistic and it's just nice. While I also absolutely LOVE, /ʍ/, I don't know if it is super realistic in the context. It could be /ɸ~ʍ/ like I think it is in Maori. That might be cool.

But I'd love to see you flesh this out. Depending on the specific of your phonotactics I think this would be a beautiful sounding language.
Thanks for the response!

I took me awhile to find a phonology I like, and inspiration finally struck. You’re the second person to mention /ʍ/ and be it needs allophony, so I’ll definitely consider it. I’ll also add /kʷʰ/ the next time I have time.

The phonotactics are fairly simple being (C)V(C). Any consonant is permitted in the onset position, but I don’t know what consonants I want yet for the coda position. While the language permits closed syllables, it prefers open syllables. There is no real parody or isochrony yet, as I’m trying to decide between mora-timed, syllable timed or stress time and whether there is stress or tone.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » 21 Dec 2018 13:35

/t̪ kʷ ʔ/
/ɬ ʂ ç/
/n̪ ɺ˞ j w/

The labio-velar stop loses its rounding utterance-finally and when before consonants, except when it follows the rounded vowel /u/.

/i u uː/
/e oː/
/a aː/

Syllable structure is CV(C), where coda consonants are restricted to /kʷ ʔ ɬ ʂ ç n̪ ɺ˞/. Additionally, long vowels only occur in open syllables.

Stress is fixed in word-initial position.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by sangi39 » 22 Dec 2018 16:03

I'd normally post this in my Human Languages of Yantas thread, but I'm so unsure of this one, I thought I'd drop it here first to see what people think:

Code: Select all

+---------------+-----------+---------------+-----------+---------+
|               |  Labial   |    Coronal    | Velar     | Glottal |
+---------------+-----------+---------------+-----------+---------+
| Plain         | p  b  m   | t  d  n   r   | k  g  ŋ   |    h    |
+---------------+-----------+---------------+-----------+---------+
| Labialised    | pʷ bʷ mʷ  | tʷ dʷ nʷ  rʷ  | kʷ gʷ ŋʷ  |    w    |
+---------------+-----------+---------------+-----------+---------+
| Labialised 2  | pʷ bʷ mʷ  | tp db nm  rβ  | kp gb ŋm  |    f    |
+---------------+-----------+---------------+-----------+---------+
| Palatalised   | pʲ bʲ mʲ  | tʲ dʲ nʲ  rʲ  | kʲ gʲ ɲ   |    j    |
+---------------+-----------+---------------+-----------+---------+
| Palatalised 2 | tɕ ʑ  ndʑ | tθ ð  ndð rdð | tɕ ʑ  ndʑ |    s    |
+---------------+-----------+---------------+-----------+---------+
/i u/
/ie uo/
/e o/
/eə oə/
/a/
/a:/

The distinction between plain and labialised consonants is neutralised before /u/ and /uo/, and similarly the distinction between plain and palatalised consonants is neutralised before /i/ and /ie/ (labelled above as "Labialised 1" and "Palatalised 1" respectively). Otherwise, plain consonants and those carrying secondary articulation can appear before any vowel.

The "Labialised 2" and "Palatalised 2" consonants result from the fortition of an older stage of labialised and palatalised consonants, which can still be seen in alternations between these consonants and the plain consonants in some morphological environments, e.g. /map/ ~ /matɕi/, from older *map ~ *mapʲi (contrasting with /mapʲie/ which instead comes from older *mapai).

/w/ and /j/ are voiceless when word-initial.

The syllable structure is CV(:/C) where a consonant can either be "short" (open and containing the vowels /i u e o a/), long (open and containing the vowels /ie uo eə oə a:/), or closed (containing one of the short vowels followed by a voiceless plosive, /n/ or /h/). Coda consonants match following consonants in terms of voicing and secondary articulation, e.g. /k.b t.dʷ t.nm/ > [g.b dʷ.dʷ] (undecided on what happens before Labialised 2 and Palatalised 2 consonants).
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 22 Dec 2018 21:37

Looks good to me! Is there anything in particular you're unsure about?

The labial-velar and labial-coronal consonants, unsurprisingly, makes me think of Yele, and the fact that there were different stages of palatalization and labialization reminds me of the various palatalizations in the histories of the Slavic languages. I like the situation with the vowels and the initial devoicing of /j w/, and I find it interesting how /h w f j s/ are labeled as "glottals". I'm also a fan of how it's not perfectly symmetrical, so to speak. For example, both sets of labialized labials are the same, and while the palatalized 2 labials and velars are identical, the palatalized 2 coronals are distinct.
sangi39 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 16:03
Otherwise, plain consonants and those carrying secondary articulation can appear before any vowel.
Can labialized (1) and palatalized (1) consonants appear word-finally or before other consonants?
sangi39 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 16:03
The syllable structure is CV(:/C) where a consonant can either be "short" (open and containing the vowels /i u e o a/), long (open and containing the vowels /ie uo eə oə a:/), or closed (containing one of the short vowels followed by a voiceless plosive, /n/ or /h/).
(Emphasis mine.)

This is nit-picky, and I could be wrong, but might you mean "syllable" here?
sangi39 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 16:03
Coda consonants match following consonants in terms of voicing and secondary articulation, e.g. /k.b t.dʷ t.nm/ > [g.b dʷ.dʷ] (undecided on what happens before Labialised 2 and Palatalised 2 consonants).
So /k.b t.dʷ/ > [g.b dʷ.dʷ], but what happens to /t.nm/?

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » 23 Dec 2018 17:22

I’ve decided to make a phonology for a romlang
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/p b t d k g/
/kʷ gʷ/
/f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ ħ h/
/ʦ ʣ ʧ ʤ/
/j w/
/r/
/l ʎ/

/i y u e ø o ə ɛ œ ɔ a/
It’s spoken in my alternate history’s version of France, Spain and Portugal by descendants of the Moors and Arabs. That’s where the pharyngeal comes from.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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sangi39
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by sangi39 » 24 Dec 2018 01:30

shimobaatar wrote:
22 Dec 2018 21:37
Looks good to me! Is there anything in particular you're unsure about?

The labial-velar and labial-coronal consonants, unsurprisingly, makes me think of Yele, and the fact that there were different stages of palatalization and labialization reminds me of the various palatalizations in the histories of the Slavic languages. I like the situation with the vowels and the initial devoicing of /j w/, and I find it interesting how /h w f j s/ are labeled as "glottals". I'm also a fan of how it's not perfectly symmetrical, so to speak. For example, both sets of labialized labials are the same, and while the palatalized 2 labials and velars are identical, the palatalized 2 coronals are distinct.
The parallel to Slavic was intentional (sort of stole it to explain how things like /tʷ/ and /tp/ contrast, despite no attested distinction occurring in any natlang as far as I can tell), and I think I sort of stole the lack of symmetry from languages like Lhasa Tibetan and Tsakonian Greek, where palatalises /p/, /t/ and /k/ had only two final outcomes rather than three (I think in those languages, though, /pʲ/ and /tʲ/ merged, distinct from /kʲ/, but I wanted to do something else).

I chose to label them as "glottal" due to their origins as /h hʷ hɸ hʲ hç/ (or something along those lines), so you'll see alternations between, say, /h/ and /s/ in the same environments you'd see alternations between /t/ and /tθ/.


shimobaatar wrote:
22 Dec 2018 21:37
sangi39 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 16:03
Otherwise, plain consonants and those carrying secondary articulation can appear before any vowel.
Can labialized (1) and palatalized (1) consonants appear word-finally or before other consonants?
They cannot, except allophonically.


shimobaatar wrote:
22 Dec 2018 21:37
sangi39 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 16:03
The syllable structure is CV(:/C) where a consonant can either be "short" (open and containing the vowels /i u e o a/), long (open and containing the vowels /ie uo eə oə a:/), or closed (containing one of the short vowels followed by a voiceless plosive, /n/ or /h/).
(Emphasis mine.)

This is nit-picky, and I could be wrong, but might you mean "syllable" here?
Yep, that was a typo [:P] It was definitely meant to be "syllable" there.


shimobaatar wrote:
22 Dec 2018 21:37
sangi39 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 16:03
Coda consonants match following consonants in terms of voicing and secondary articulation, e.g. /k.b t.dʷ t.nm/ > [g.b dʷ.dʷ] (undecided on what happens before Labialised 2 and Palatalised 2 consonants).
So /k.b t.dʷ/ > [g.b dʷ.dʷ], but what happens to /t.nm/?
I'm not entirely sure yet. I'd assume [tp.nm], but then there's the question of what to so with, say, /t.tɕ/. Does that become [tθ.tɕ], or [tʲ.tɕ], [t.tɕ] or something else?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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