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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 02 Aug 2019 18:53
by ɶʙ ɞʛ
Initial:
/m n ŋ/
/p t ts k/
/b d dz g/
/f s z x h/
/w l r j/

/i e a o u/

pp tt kk > p’ t’ k’
pt pts pk > t’ ts’ k’
tp tts tk > ɓ ts’ k’ > w ts’ k’
ts > s _C
kp kt kts > ʘ ! ǀ̠ > ɓ ɗ ɗz > w l z
p’ > ɓ > w, but before consonants epenthetic ǝ is inserted.


mn mŋ > wn wŋ
nŋ nm > ɹŋ ɹm > ǝŋ ǝm
ŋm ŋn > jm wn

nC > ǝC if C is not coronal

p > pf in onset, h in coda

pf > f > h _C, also eliminating pre-existing f there

aǝ eǝ iǝ oǝ uǝ > ai e: i: o: u:

s z > ʃ ʒ next to i e

ih eh ah oh uh > ɪh ǝh ǝh ɔh ʊh

a ɔ > ɒ, ʊ > o

Short e i > ǝ ɪ, short u > ʊ > o

ɪ > ǝ, ǝ > a

Remaining f > h, but pf word initially

g > h in coda, x in onset

/m n ŋ/
/t’ ts’ tʃ’ k’/
/pf t ts tʃ k/
/b d dz dʒ/
/s z ʃ ʒ x h/
/w l r j/

/ǝ i: a e: ɒ o: o u: ai/

Tin > ti: > tʃi:
Ti > tʃǝ
p:na > p’ǝna > wǝna > wanɒ

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 09 Aug 2019 06:03
by ɶʙ ɞʛ
Fortis stops: /p t ʈ~k/ [p'~p t'~t ʈ'~ʈ~k'~k]
Lenis stops: /b d ɖ g ɢ ʔ/ [pʰ~b tʰ~d ʈʰ~ɖ kʰ~ɣ qʰ~ʁ ʔ~0]
Fortis continuants: /f f: s s: ʂ ʂ: χ χ:/ [f~v pf~f s~z ts~s ʂ~ʐ tʂ~ʂ χ~ʁ qχ~χ]
Lenis continuants: /ɸ ɸ: θ θ: x x: h h:/ [h~w hʷ h~ɹ h~θ h~ɣ h~ʂ~x~kx h~0 h~ʔh]

/ɪ ɵ ɛ ə ɑ/
/i: ʉ: e: ɯ: a:/

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 15 Aug 2019 02:57
by Linguifex
Something I'm working on for a triconsonantal language:

p t tʷ tʲ tʲʷ k kʷ ʔ ʔʷ
s sʷ ʃ ʃʷ
w l lʷ j ɥ

a aː ã ə əː ə̃

a ə → ɒ u / Cʷ_ (/p/ is treated as rounded for purposes of this rule)
a ə → æ i / else
S → N / _V[+ nasal]
Cʷ → C[- round] / _# (/p w/ are exempt; I'm not sure if I should have /p/ debuccalize to [h], here or elsewhere; thoughts?)

Cannot have three plosives in a root
Cannot have three rounded obstruents in a root

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 16 Aug 2019 16:42
by LinguoFranco
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/p t t͡s c k/
/ᵐb ⁿd ⁿd͡ʒ ᶮɟ ᵑɡ/
/s ʃ ɬ h/
/z ɮ/
/l ʎ j w/

/a e i o u/

I don't know how naturalistic this is, and I'm uncertain about the fricatives as I may add /f v/. The language is syllable-timed and has an unfixed stress. The maximum syllable allowed is CGVC.

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 18 Aug 2019 22:08
by ɶʙ ɞʛ
/m n ŋ/
/p t ts tɬ k/
/s ɬ h/
/l/

/ɑ ɛ ə ɪ ɞ/
/ɑ: e: ɯ: i: ʉ:/

/p/ is realized as /p/ normally. However, next to /ɪ/ or /i:/, it is realized as /p̪f/, /t̼/, or /t̪θ/. It is lenited to a fricative /ɸ/, /f/, /θ̼/, or /θ/ intervocalically. Thus, /ɑpɛ/ [ɑɸə], /ɑpɪ/ [æf~æθ̼~æθ].
/pə tə kə/ are realized as [p~h t~tʰ k~kʰ~x] if before a vowel or end of word. Similarly, /pɞ tɞ kɞ/ are realized as [p~ɸ tʷ~tʷʰ kʷ~kʷʰ~xʷ] in the same environments.
/ɪpə/ [ɪh] /ɪkɞ/ [ɪçʷ]
[t s ɬ ts tɬ kɬ l k x m n ŋ] become [c ʃ ƛ tʃ cƛ cƛ λ c ç ɱ~n̼~n̪ ɲ ɲ] next to /ɪ i:/. /ɪ ə ɞ/ are deleted before a vowel or end of word, and /ɑ ɛ/ are realized as [a i] in those environments.

/ɑ ɞ ɛ ə/ are [æ œ e ɪ] next to palatal(ized) or coronal consonants, and [ʌ ʊ ə ω] next to velars, and [ɑ ɞ ɛ ə] if next to both.

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 20 Aug 2019 22:06
by Shemtov
The Phonology of Ṛemese, (From the Endonym of the largest island, Ṛem, /ɻem/ whose language acts as a lingua franca for the The Crowned Republic of Ṛem and The United Islands), an altlang which is an Austronesian language spoken in the IRL South Ryukyu Islands:
/t k/ <t k>
/t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ <ch j>
/m n ɲ/ <m n ny>
/ɾ/ <rr>
/ɸ s ʃ h ɦ/ <f s sh h ȟ>
/ɹ ɻ j w/ < r ṛ y w>

/i y u e o ə a/ <i ü u e o ǎ a>

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 21 Aug 2019 22:56
by holbuzvala
A question on diachronics

So I have /tʰ/ which changes to /r̥/ when bounded by vowels or a word boundary. e.g.: /tʰatʰ/-> /r̥ar̥/, /atʰa/ -> /ar̥a/.

However, I am having trouble deciding what /tʰ/ should become when adjacent to other consonants, particularly stops and voiced sonorants. The current consonant inventory is as follows:

/p t k pʰ tʰ kʰ pʲ tʲ kʲ pʷ tʷ kʷ/
/s t͡s/
/m n ŋ/
/r l ɣ/

Any ideas? /pʰ/ becomes /f/ everywhere, so maybe /tʰ/ could become /s/ in clusters?

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 23 Aug 2019 00:45
by Birdlang
Some conlangs. My main ones all redone.
Birdish
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g ʼ
/ɸ β s z ɕ~ʃ ʑ~ʒ x~h ɣ/ f v s z x j ħ ģ
/ʦ ʣ ʨ~ʧ ʥ~ʤ/ ç ʒ c ĵ
/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ñ ŋ
/l ʎ j ɰ~ʋ/ l ɫ y w
/ɾ r/ r ŗ
/ɮ/ ḷ

/Ø~Vː/ h

/i e ɛ a/ i ė e a
/ɯ u ʊ ɤ o ʌ ɔ ɒ/ ü u ù õ ȯ ö o ȧ
/ɨ ʉ ə ɜ/ î û ë ä
/Vː/ VV or V̄ or Vh
/Vʔ/ V’
Breve is used when vowels are pronounced shorter.

Pheasanti
/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ñ/ny ng
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g ʼ
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/ f v s z š/sh ž/zh h
/ʧ ʤ/ č/ky/ty j/dy/gy
/l ʎ j w/ l ĺ/ly y w
/ɾ r/ r (medial and final) r (initial)/rr (other)

/i y u e ø ɤ o a/ i ü u e ʌ ə o a
Vowels can be long, written with macron.
Diphthongs are present, with glide in diphthong written as i/e/u/o/ü with a breve above.
Modern Standard Birdish
/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ñ ŋ
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g '
/ɸ β s z ʃ ʒ x~h ɣ/ f v s z x j ḥ ģ
/ʦ ʣ ʧ ʤ/ ç ʒ c ĵ
/l ʎ j ɰ~ɣ/ l ɫ y w
/ɾ r/ r ŕ
/ɮ/ ĺ

/i ɨ ʉ u ʊ e ɤ~ø ə o ɛ ʌ~œ ɔ a/ i ï ü u ŏ é ŭ ë ó e ö o a
Long vowels = VV/Vh/V̄

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 28 Aug 2019 11:23
by Ryan Aditya
/m n ŋ/
/p b t d k ɡ ʔ/
/ts dz/
/θ ð s z h/
/r j w/
/l/

/i ɨ ɯ u/
/e ə o/
/ɛ ɔ/
/a ä ɑ/

Allophone of consonants
/n t~ts~k d~dz~ɡ θ~s ð~z h l/ before /i/, /e/ or if palatized:
[ɲ tɕ dʑ ɕ ʑ ç ʎ]
/h l/ before /ɯ/ or /ɑ/:
[x ɫ]
/t d h/ before /u/, /o/ or if labialized:
[ts dz ɸ]

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 01 Sep 2019 01:11
by Omzinesý
Attempt for an orthography where <s> represents / ʃ/ and <c/ci> represents/s/

p t c k (/k/ only appears after back vowels) <p t c(after back vowels)/k after front vowels k>
b d ɟ g (/g/ only appears after back vowels) <b d g g>
m n ɲ <m n nj>
f s ʃ <f c(after front vowels)/ci(after back vowels) s>
v z h <v z h>
r l ʎ <r l lj>
j <j>

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 01 Sep 2019 13:08
by DesEsseintes
Sōkoan vowels latest:

Code: Select all

← back    front → 
   ɑ        a
 o   ɤ    ɛ̠   e
 u   ɯ    ɨ   i 

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 01 Sep 2019 19:26
by DV82LECM
Am asking, how does someone distinguish this?

/a ä ɑ/

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 01 Sep 2019 21:43
by Ser
DV82LECM wrote:
01 Sep 2019 19:26
Am asking, how does someone distinguish this?

/a ä ɑ/
When speaking, you put your tongue in different positions when pronouncing each of the three. When listening, some part of your brain interprets the signals and identifies their acoustic differences to distinguish them.

This looks like a facetious answer, but it's not. If you have difficulties to distinguish them because of your native language, this doesn't mean that others do. Many Spanish speakers are unable to distinguish all three of "soak", "suck" and "sock" as pronounced by speakers of American English, and American English speakers tend to find this baffling. On the other hand, speakers of American English (and Spanish) have a lot of trouble distinguishing German /e:/ from /i:/.

It is also possible that these so-called "/a ä ɑ/" phonemes are actually abstractions of much more distinct surface phones. For example, it's possible that /ɑ/ triggers velarization in the consonant before, while /a/ has an effect in the consonant before it (perhaps for historical reasons, due to /a/ coming from earlier /jä/), without mentioning that perhaps one or two of them are usually long except in some environments. This would lead to minimal pairs like:
/kam käm kɑm/ [tʃam käm kʷɑ:m].

Please note that it is very unusual to use "/a ä ɑ/" as the notation. The convention in linguistics is to use "/æ a ɑ/" instead, regardless of what the IPA table might suggest. Outside the IPA, in Chinese linguistics "/a ᴀ ɑ/" is preferred, using a small ᴀ for the central vowel.

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 01 Sep 2019 21:55
by DV82LECM
Ser wrote:
01 Sep 2019 21:43
DV82LECM wrote:
01 Sep 2019 19:26
Am asking, how does someone distinguish this?

/a ä ɑ/
When speaking, you put your tongue in different positions when pronouncing each of the three. When listening, some part of your brain interprets the signals and identifies their acoustic differences to distinguish them.

This looks like a facetious answer, but it's not. If you have difficulties to distinguish them because of your native language, this doesn't mean that others do. Many Spanish speakers are unable to distinguish all three of "soak", "suck" and "sock" as pronounced by speakers of American English, and American English speakers tend to find this baffling. On the other hand, speakers of American English (and Spanish) have a lot of trouble distinguishing German /e:/ from /i:/.

It is also possible that these so-called "/a ä ɑ/" phonemes are actually abstractions of much more distinct surface phones. For example, it's possible that /ɑ/ triggers velarization in the consonant before, while /a/ has an effect in the consonant before it (perhaps for historical reasons, due to /a/ coming from earlier /jä/), without mentioning that perhaps one or two of them are usually long except in some environments. This would lead to minimal pairs like:
/kam käm kɑm/ [tʃam käm kʷɑ:m].

Please note that it is very unusual to use "/a ä ɑ/" as the notation. The convention in linguistics is to use "/æ a ɑ/" instead, regardless of what the IPA table might suggest. Outside the IPA, in Chinese linguistics "/a ᴀ ɑ/" is preferred, using a small ᴀ for the central vowel.
First off, thank you for that. Second, is there any living language that does present the front and central <a> as two distinguishable sounds? That's my whole point.

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 02 Sep 2019 11:48
by Zekoslav
I'm not sure about this, but I seem to remember that no languages distinguishing a front and a central /a/ is precisely the reason why no separate symbols for the two exist in IPA. However, a language that does distinguish them may have been discovered since the invention of the IPA.

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 02 Sep 2019 16:41
by eldin raigmore
Zekoslav wrote:
02 Sep 2019 11:48
I'm not sure about this, but I seem to remember that no languages distinguishing a front and a central /a/ is precisely the reason why no separate symbols for the two exist in IPA. However, a language that does distinguish them may have been discovered since the invention of the IPA.
In IPA the central one is near-open rather than open.
There are definitely languages that have both an open (low) front vowel and an open (low) back vowel.
Woisika appears to also have a central open vowel.
Spoiler:

The 'short no_mod voice low unrounded vowels' sounds occur 2 or more times in these languages:

Language (sounds) Sound % of sounds in language
ASHUSLAY (28) a, a_ 7.14%
AZERBAIJANI (33) a+, a_ 6.06%
BRAO (31) a, a+ 6.45%
DAN (39) a, a+ 5.13%
FARSI (30) a+, a_ 6.67%
FE?FE? (25) a+, a_ 8.00%
KHMER (42) a+, a_ 4.76%
KONKANI (37) a, a+ 5.41%
KOTOKO (36) a+, a_ 5.56%
NAMBAKAENGO (47) a, a_ 4.26%
NGANASAN (29) a, a+ 6.90%
PHLONG (37) a, a+ 5.41%
SELKUP (34) a, a+ 5.88%
SINHALESE (36) a+, a_ 5.56%
TEMNE (25) a, a_ 8.00%
WOISIKA (28) a, a+, a_ 10.71%

These 16 languages are 3.55% of all languages in UPSID.


The criterion 'short no_mod voice low unrounded vowels' matches with these sounds:


Sound Description Sound occurs in % of UPSID's languages
a low central unrounded vowel 86.92%
a+ low front unrounded vowel 5.76%
a_ low back unrounded vowel 5.54%

These 3 sounds make 0.33% of all 919 sounds in UPSID
Woisika also contains a low back rounded vowel.
So does Dan. It contains front unrounded, central unrounded, and back rounded low vowels.

—————

Still, if a language that has an open central vowel, its lowest front and back vowels are likelier to be open-mid or near-open; and if a language has both an open front vowel and an open back vowel, its lowest central vowel is likelier to be open-mid or near-open.
Otherwise the lowest row or two of the vowel-chart is just too crowded.
Blackness/frontness differences between vowels the same height (closeness), are easier to articulate and to hear, the closer (higher) the vowels are.

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 02 Sep 2019 17:00
by DesEsseintes
Zekoslav wrote:
02 Sep 2019 11:48
I'm not sure about this, but I seem to remember that no languages distinguishing a front and a central /a/ is precisely the reason why no separate symbols for the two exist in IPA. However, a language that does distinguish them may have been discovered since the invention of the IPA.
The Hamont dialect of Limburgish has previously been cited on this forum as a language that distinguishes front, central and back low vowels.

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 03 Sep 2019 17:36
by Omzinesý
p t k ʔ
f θ x h
s
m n ŋ
l j w

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 04 Sep 2019 18:45
by Frislander
The New and Improved Proto-Muyan.

*p *t *ʈ *c *k *q
*pʰ *tʰ *ʈʰ *cʰ *kʰ *qʰ
*m *n *ŋ
*w *l *j

The series labeled as alveolar and retroflex were more likely dental-laminal and apical respectively. The stopped nature of the palatals is debatable.

*iː *ʊ *uː
*ɛː *ə *ɒː

*iː *uː *ɛː *ɒː were full vowels, *ə *ʊ reduced. All vowels distinguished modal and creaky voice.

Syllable structure was CV(n), where coda /n/ assimilated to the POA of a following consonant and completely to a following /l/.

Root structure was limited - Roots could consist of either a single syllable with a full vowel, two syllables with reduced vowels, or a syllable with a full vowel followed by a syllable with a reduced vowel.

Example

cətʰəjiːtʰiː cʰɒ̰ːllə ŋiːlɒːʈʰʊ
cə-<əj>tʰiː-PROG cʰɒ̰ːllə ŋiː-lɒːʈʰʊ
PROX-<2>eat-PROG smoke LOC-hut
You're smoking in the hut

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Posted: 12 Sep 2019 22:12
by Omzinesý
I'm still playing with the same-ish phonology.

pʰ tʰ t͡ɕ kʰ <p t cx k>
p~b t~d c~ɟ k~g <b d c g>
m̥ʰ n̥ʰ ɲ̥ʰ ŋ̥ʰ <mh nh nch ngh>
m n ɲ ŋ <m n nc ng>
s ɕ <s x>
l j ɰ w <l j q w>

i ɯ u <i y u>
e̞ ɘ̞ o̞ <e a o>
a ɑ ɒ <e̩ a̩ o̩>


Stress is fixed on the penultimate syllable. Stressed syllables have either a rising tone <á> or a lowering tone <à>.

Vowels cannot be phonemically long. Two adjacent, same, unstressed vowels are however usually pronounced together.


Phonotactics:
(C)(C)(G)(V) where j stands for a glide.

Consonant clusters can be:
i) two stops or two nasals the leftmost of them having no own release. A palatal and a velar cannot, however, form such a cluster.
ii) a non-labial obstruent + /l/. /l/ assimilates with the place or articulation of the preceding obstruent. If the obstruent is aspirated /l/ is devoiced, and they form a phonetic lateral affricate. (I'm still not sure how /t͡ɕ/ + /l/ realises.)
Clusters i) and ii) cannot be combined for three-member clusters.

Any of the three glides /j ɰ w/ can precede a non-high vowel.




Code: Select all

pt, pcx, pk, tp, tcx, tk, cp, ct, kp, kt = 10
bd, bc, bg, db, dc, dg, cb, cd, kb, kd  = 10
mnh, mnch, mngh, nmh, nnch, nngh, ncmh, ncnh, ngmh, ngnh = 10
mn, mnc, mng, nm, nnc, nng, ncm, ncn, ngm, ngn = 10 
tl, cxl, kl = 3
dl, cl, gl = 3
sl, xl =2 

je, ja, jo, je̩ ja̩ jo̩
qe, qa, qo, qe̩ qa̩ qo̩
we, wa, wo, we̩ wa̩ wo̩

(22 single consonants + 48 clusters) * (9 single vowels + 18 diphthongs) = 1890 possible syllables. Most roots are bisyllabic.