Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

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DV82LECM
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DV82LECM » 02 Oct 2018 14:40

Frislander wrote:
01 Oct 2018 22:55
/p t s ɬ k/
/b ɾ z l g/
/n/

The voiced vs. voiced obstruent contrast is limited to intervocalic position. Initially only voiceless obstruents are found, while after nasals only voiced ones are found, and additionally /nb nɾ nl ng/ are realised as [mb nd nː ŋg].

/i ɨ u/
/a/

Syllable structure is limited to (C)V(n), where vowel-initial syllables are restricted to word-initial position, while the coda nasal may only cluster with voiced obstruents subject to the above assimilations.

Stress is contrastive, but it is restricted by a coda-n; in a word with only open syllables the stress may appear anywhere in the word, but a word with a closed syllable will have stress on the closed syllable (with words with multiple closed syllables the stress may go on any of the closed syllables).
Does /z/ become [nz] after /n/ like the others? Kind of a gap if not. I suppose you could explain this away by a yet-to-be illustrated restriction -- provided that the language isn't purely isolating. If it were SUCH, though, you COULD say the /z/ assimilates the coda-N: /-n z-/ = /-z-/.

By the way, DO voiceless obstruents become voiced when met up with coda-N? Is it based on happenstance?

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by gestaltist » 02 Oct 2018 15:24

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
02 Oct 2018 05:50
- No more than 14 consonants
- Glottal stop
- No voicing distinctions
- A uvular stop and a uvular continuant
- A lateral obstruent and a lateral approximant
- A trill
- At least three nasals
- At least seven vowels
That doesn't sound too terrible or too weird, TBH.

Vowels: /a ɛ e i ɔ o u/ (as standard as it gets).
Nasals: /m n ŋ/
A trill (and at the same time - uvular continuant): /ʀ/
Lateral obstruent and approximant: /l t͜ɬ/ and I'd also add /ɬ/ in that case - this is also the only memorable requirement on the list.
Which leaves us with at most 7 further consonants: /p t k q ʔ s h/

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » 03 Oct 2018 18:34

DV82LECM wrote:
02 Oct 2018 14:40
Does /z/ become [nz] after /n/ like the others? Kind of a gap if not.
Well erm I rather meant that /n/ + /z/ = /nz/ [nz], in the same way that /n/ + /b/ = /nb/ [mb], but as the /nz/ cluster shows no change from its underlying form on the phonetic level, I felt no need to spell it out explicitly, and I did refer to voiced obstruents as a class as opposed to voiceless ones, and organised the table in such so that the voiced-voiceless opposition was clear and that it was obvious that each voiceless obstruent had a voiced equivalent and vice-versa. But I suppose in order to be explicit yes, the full roster of clusters would be /nb nɾ nz nl ng/ [mb nz nd nː ŋg]
By the way, DO voiceless obstruents become voiced when met up with coda-N? Is it based on happenstance?
Possibly, though there are other options. For example, if the intervocalic voiceless obstruents descend from geminate stops and the voiced obstruents from single ones, then instead a voiceless stop could delete a preceding nasal instead. This could also leave open room for some funky processes whereby some roots have a "hidden" coda that turns a voiced obstruent in an affix into a voiceless one. Even more alternatively I could instead choose to restrict this strict cluster limit to roots and some of the older morphology, and permit other affixes and clitics to create more kinds of clusters.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » 04 Oct 2018 11:45

/p t c k kʷ/ p t c k kʷ
/b d ɟ ɡ ɡʷ/ b d ĵ g gʷ
/ɸ β~ʋ f v s z ɕ ʑ x ɣ xʷ ɣʷ h/ ḟ ṿ f v s z š ž x ƣ xʷ ƣʷ h
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ/ m n ñ ŋ ŋʷ
/j w ɰ ɥ/ j w ẅ ÿ
/r/ r
/l ʎ ʟ ʟʷ/ l l̃ ɫ ɫʷ

/i y e ø ɛ œ æ/ i ü é ő è ȍ æ
/ɨ ʉ ɘ ɵ ə ɜ ɞ a/ î û ê ô e ö ä a
/ɯ u ɯ̽ ʊ ɤ o ʌ ɔ ɑ ɒ/ ï u ì ů ë ó o ò â å
/à ā â/ a̰ a a̍
/āː âː/ ā a̎
I don’t get why the same person does my orthographies and I have to redo them because they are so not cool looking.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 04 Oct 2018 12:51

Birdlang wrote:
04 Oct 2018 11:45
I don’t get why the same person does my orthographies and I have to redo them because they are so not cool looking.
If you're talking about me, the Romanization game is just a game, not a place to go to have someone else come up with a "cool looking" orthography for you. When I'm playing the game in that thread, I'm trying to have fun, not necessarily to come up with something that looks "cool", especially not by someone else's standards.

If you're dissatisfied with the results you're getting by leaving the creation of your languages' orthographies up to someone playing a game, just make them yourself. That way they'll definitely fit your personal aesthetic.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by gestaltist » 04 Oct 2018 13:37

shimobaatar wrote:
04 Oct 2018 12:51
Birdlang wrote:
04 Oct 2018 11:45
I don’t get why the same person does my orthographies and I have to redo them because they are so not cool looking.
If you're talking about me, the Romanization game is just a game, not a place to go to have someone else come up with a "cool looking" orthography for you. When I'm playing the game in that thread, I'm trying to have fun, not necessarily to come up with something that looks "cool", especially not by someone else's standards.

If you're dissatisfied with the results you're getting by leaving the creation of your languages' orthographies up to someone playing a game, just make them yourself. That way they'll definitely fit your personal aesthetic.
Not to mention that complaining about others not conforming to your aesthetics sounds a bit petulant.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 04 Oct 2018 16:00

gestaltist wrote:
04 Oct 2018 13:37
shimobaatar wrote:
04 Oct 2018 12:51
Birdlang wrote:
04 Oct 2018 11:45
I don’t get why the same person does my orthographies and I have to redo them because they are so not cool looking.
If you're talking about me, the Romanization game is just a game, not a place to go to have someone else come up with a "cool looking" orthography for you. When I'm playing the game in that thread, I'm trying to have fun, not necessarily to come up with something that looks "cool", especially not by someone else's standards.

If you're dissatisfied with the results you're getting by leaving the creation of your languages' orthographies up to someone playing a game, just make them yourself. That way they'll definitely fit your personal aesthetic.
Not to mention that complaining about others not conforming to your aesthetics sounds a bit petulant.
I use this topic or Romanization Game (can't remember which I posted a previous iteration of Ddoean's phonology in) just to see how someone else would Romanize my phonology, even though I already know how it's done, because I find seeing the result fun. Thus, I don't mind redoing it.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » 04 Oct 2018 16:44

/p t ʈ t͡ʃ k kʷ q/
/s ʂ x xʷ χ/
/m ɺ~n ɭ j w/

/i o/
/æ ɑ̃/

Syllablc structure is pretty much free due to many affixes being simple C-, however reduced non-phonemic epenthetic vowels are inserted to break up most clusters phonetically, with speakers varying as to precisely which clusters they break.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Linguifex » 05 Oct 2018 04:58

Frislander wrote:
04 Oct 2018 16:44
/p t ʈ t͡ʃ k kʷ q/
/s ʂ x xʷ χ/
/m ɺ~n ɭ j w/

/i o/
/æ ɑ̃/
Do the stops become nasals before /ɑ̃/?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » 05 Oct 2018 11:34

Linguifex wrote:
05 Oct 2018 04:58
Frislander wrote:
04 Oct 2018 16:44
/p t ʈ t͡ʃ k kʷ q/
/s ʂ x xʷ χ/
/m ɺ~n ɭ j w/

/i o/
/æ ɑ̃/
Do the stops become nasals before /ɑ̃/?
Only /ɺ/ probably.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 10 Oct 2018 08:07

Limestone with f

Just as I was dozing off last night, my brain (that noisome fellow) woke me up with the startling idea of adding a bilabial fricative to Limestone.

Consonants
/p t k ʔ/ p t k ’
/p’ t’ k’/ p’ t’ k’
/ɸ s ɬ x/ f s ł x
/ɾ/ r
/j w/ y w

Vowels
/a i o u/ a i o u

Permissible Diphthongs
ao oa
ai ou
iu ui


Some word forms incorporating the new phoneme and grapheme:

aafáó’xoo
fóútsít’aawaayo
ifíúxkssi
yáó’foo

I think this is rather exciting, and it’s well outside my Algonquian comfort zone.

Edit: The Limestone alphabet:

Aa Áá Ff Hh Ii Íí Kk Łł Oo Óó Pp Rr Ss Tt Uu Úú Ww Xx Yy
Last edited by DesEsseintes on 13 Oct 2018 12:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 10 Oct 2018 12:21

DesEsseintes wrote:
10 Oct 2018 08:07
aafáó’xoo
fóútsít’aawaayo
ifíúxkssi
yáó’foo
Not bad at all! [+1]
DesEsseintes wrote:
10 Oct 2018 08:07
I think this is rather exciting, and it’s well outside my Algonquian comfort zone.
[:O]

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý » 10 Oct 2018 15:52

p t̯ t k
β ð ɹ ɣ
t͡s̯ t͡s s̯ s
t͡ɬ̯t͡ɬ ɬ̯ ɬ
l̯ l r̯ r
m n̯ n ŋ
j w

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » 10 Oct 2018 15:55

A phonology sketch of a potential PIE daughter language (don't be fooled by the inventory, it's satem but not otherwise much like Iranian).

/p t k/
/b d g/
/s ʂ ɕ h/
/z ʐ ʑ/
/m n/
/w ɾ j/

The voiced obstruents only contrast with the voiceless ones intervocalically and after sonorants.

/i iː u uː/
/ɛː ə/
/ɑ̃ ɑ̃ː/

And some derivations:

pədɛːr "father" < *ph2tēr
nəpə "cloud" < *nebʰos
pɑ̃ːʑə "five" < *penkʷe
əzə "horse" < *eḱwos
wəgə "wolf" < *wl̩kʷos
wɛːtkə "name" < *werdʰo-
sɑ̃də "hundred" < *ḱm̩tom
sɑ̃ː "goose" < *ǵʰans-

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » 10 Oct 2018 18:34

I didn’t mean to sound rude. I just don’t like the look of big consonant clusters, and I prefer diacritics. I am sorry for what I said if it offended any of you.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » 11 Oct 2018 13:42

Birdlang wrote:
10 Oct 2018 18:34
I didn’t mean to sound rude. I just don’t like the look of big consonant clusters, and I prefer diacritics. I am sorry for what I said if it offended any of you.
Sorry what? Who were you talking too, I missed this.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 11 Oct 2018 18:02

Frislander wrote:
11 Oct 2018 13:42
Birdlang wrote:
10 Oct 2018 18:34
I didn’t mean to sound rude. I just don’t like the look of big consonant clusters, and I prefer diacritics. I am sorry for what I said if it offended any of you.
Sorry what? Who were you talking too, I missed this.
This was almost certainly in response to a chain of comments from last week, not to you.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » 17 Oct 2018 19:27

/p t k k͡p ʔ/ <p t c c̊ k>
/b d g g͡b/ <b d g g̊>
/f v s z ç ʝ x ɣ x͡f ɣ͡v h hʷ/ <f v s z ś ź c̱ ḡ c̱̊ ḡ̊ h h̥>
/m n ŋ ŋ͡m/ <m n ŋ ŋ̊>
/l j w wˠ/ <l y ẘ w>
/r r͡ʀ/ <r ṛ>

/i y e ø ɛ œ æ/ <i ü e ö ɛ ɔ̈ ä>
/ɨ ɵ ə a/ <ı ø ə a>
/ɯ u ɤ o ʌ ɔ ɒ/ <ï u ë o ɛ̈ ɔ å>

And
/p b t d ṯʲ ḏʲ c ɟ k g ʔ/ p b t d ṱ ḓ ḱ ǵ k g ɔ / p b t d th dh kh gh k g ch
/f v s z ɕ ʑ ʃ ʒ x ɣ ħ ʕ h/ f v s z ŝ ẑ ḉ ć ç q ĥ c h / f v s z sc zj sh zj x gj xh c h
/m n ṉʲ ɲ ŋ/ m n ṋ ń g̃ / m n nh nj ng
/l ḻʲ ʎ j ɥ ɰ w/ l ḽ ĺ î ŷ ŵ û / l lh lj j jw wh w
/r ṟʲ r̟/ r ř ŕ / r rh rj

/i ɨ u e o ə ɛ ʌ ɔ ɑ/ i y u ê ô e ə w o a / i y u ei ou e ea o ao a

In foreign words
/ʦ ʣ ʨ ʥ ʧ ʤ/ ṣ ẓ ţ ḑ ť ď / ts dz jh qh ph bh
/θ ð ç ʝ/ x ż ş j / x xh q qx

And
I’m updating the Modern Birdish language, such as adding more phonemes for foreign words and making a second diacritic free alphabet like there is with the protolang.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » 18 Oct 2018 10:29

An alternative version of said IE-lang

/p t k/
/s ʂ ɕ h/
/m n/
/ɾ/

/i iː u uː/
/ɛː ə/
/ɑ̃ ɑ̃ː/

pətɛːr "father" < *ph2tēr
ɕɛːn "woman" < *gʷēn
nəp "cloud" < *nebʰos
pɑ̃ːɕ "five" < *penkʷe
su "horse" < *eḱwos
uk "wolf" < *wl̩kʷos
uːk "name" < *werdʰo-
sɑ̃t "hundred" < *ḱm̩tom
sɑ̃ː "goose" < *ǵʰans-
ʂiː "three" < *treyes
niʂ(t) "nest" < *nisdos
ɕəɕ/ɕəʂ/ɕək "wheel" < *kʷekʷlos (the treatment of *l is uncertain and probably dialect-dependant)
mɑ̃ːt "mind" < *mentis
ɾuːt "root" < *wreh2ds
tiː "sky" < *deiwos
tɑ̃ːt "tooth" < *Hdonts
kəs "earth" < *dʰeǵʰom
ut "water" < *wodr̩
tɑ̃sɛː "tongue" < *dn̩ǵweh2s
iːm/ɾiːm "lake" < *leymon

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 19 Oct 2018 06:00

What were the sound changes for each of those versions? I'm curious, especially with that single stop series.

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