Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Keenir » 03 Oct 2014 08:45

Idle Thoughtlang...
ø a ɔ
b p t ʔ
ɱ ŋ~N
sz
θ̱ ð̠ ɰ ʕ~h
ɬ~ɮ
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Esmelthien » 03 Oct 2014 17:54

/m n/ m n
/p t t͡ʃ k q ʔ/ p t ţ k q ˀ
/v~f ɬ ʃ h/ <v/f ll ş h>
/l~ɾ j/ <l/r j>
/k͡ǁ ŋ͡ǁ/ <x nx>

/i ə u iə̯ uə̯/ <i ə u iə uə>
/e a o e̯a o̯a/ <e a o ea oa>

(C)V(C), basically. Word-finally, C is limited to stops, and clicks don't cluster. The second element in a cluster is always a stop.

Something like a sample, randomly made-up:

Xiəţəkiru emoˀe ellqajavaˀ şonakeraq lluəpirəq loa ˀeka i. Eşka iəşuqəfˀilləxuhkə şivinxu kare le.
/k͡ǁiə̯t͡ʃəkiɾu emoʔe eɬqajavaʔ ʃonakeɾaq ɬuə̯piɾəq lo̯a ʔeka i. eʃka iə̯ʃiqəfʔiɬək͡ǁuhkə ʃiviŋ͡ǁu kaɾe leʔ./

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by All4Ɇn » 05 Oct 2014 07:08

/m n~n̥ ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p b t d k g ʔ/ <p b t d k/q g h>
/ts~dz tʃ dʒ/ <z ci dj>
/f v θ ð s z ʃ~ʒ ç~x ɣ h~ʰ/ <f/v w þ ð s/ß/ſ s/x sch ch gh h>
/j w~ʍ/ <j/gi ƿ>
/r̥~r~ʀ/ <r>
/l̥~l~ł/ <l>

/i y u/ <í y u>
/ɪ ʏ/ <i ü>
/e ø o/ <é ö ó>
/ə/ <ë>
/ɛ œ ɔ/ <e œ o>
/æ ɐ ɐː/ <æ á áa>
/a ɑ ɑː ɒ/ <ä a aa oa>
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 06 Oct 2014 04:34, edited 2 times in total.

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Linguifex
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Linguifex » 05 Oct 2014 07:59

All4Ɇn wrote:/i y u/ <í y u>
/ɪ ʏ/ <i ü>
/e ø o/ <é ö o>
/ə/ <ë>
/ɛ œ ɔ/ <e œ ó>
/æ ɐ/ <æ á>
/a ɑ ɑː ɒ/ <ä a aa oa>
Given this scheme I would suggest switching <o ó> or <é e>, or just using grave accents for /ɔ ɐ ɛ/.
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All4Ɇn
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by All4Ɇn » 05 Oct 2014 18:42

Linguifex wrote: switching <o ó> or <é e>
Yeah, good idea. Sorta had my long and short O's mixed up.

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DesEsseintes
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 16 Oct 2014 05:51

Here's an idea for sth weird and Icelandicky.

/m n ɲ/
/m̥ n̥ ɲ̊/
/p t c k/
/b d ɟ g/
/bʱ dʱ ɟʱ gʱ/
/f θ s (ç) h/
/v̥ ð̥ z̥ (ʝ̥ ɣ̊)/
/v ð z (ʝ ɣ)/
/l ʎ ʟ/
/l̥ ʎ̥ ʟ̥/
/j/

Code: Select all

nasal         m       n   ɲ
  unvoiced    m̥       n̥   ɲ̊
stop          p       t   c   k
  voiced      b       d   ɟ   g
  breathy     bʱ      dʱ  ɟʱ  gʱ
fricative     f   θ   s  (ç)      h
  mute        v̥   ð̥   z̥  (ʝ̥   ɣ̊)
  voiced      v   ð   z  (ʝ   ɣ)
lateral               l   ʎ   ʟ
  unvoiced            l̥   ʎ̥   ʟ̥
approximant               j
- I'm not really sure about the nature of the "mute" fricatives. I articulate them as I would a voiced fricative but strip it of voicing, which produces a very different effect from the corresponding unvoiced fricative. I suspect I'm using glottal closure of some sort, so they might be glottalised but frankly, I'm not knowledgeable enough about glottalisation to tell. Any pointers?
- I want to do a lot of complementary distribution here. All the different stop and fricative series can occur initially (and are therefore phonemic) but internally each series will be limited in its distribution.

Oops! I just realised that I haven't even thought of vowels... I'll update this.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Nortaneous » 16 Oct 2014 17:30

Incorruptus wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Zzyx-wqnp (Vian):

/p b t d ts dz tʂ dʐ tɕ dʑ k g/ <p b t d c z tr dr ch j k g>
/f s ʂ ɕ x/ <f s sh x h>
/mb~m nd~ndz~n ɲɟ~ɲ/ <bb~m dd~zz~n jj~ny>
/ʋ~w r j/ <w r y>
/a ɒ e ə o i u z̩ v̩/ <a q e z o i u y v>
/ã ɒ̃ ẽ ə̃ õ ĩ ũ/ <an qn en zn on in un>
/m̩ n̩ ɲ̩ ŋ̩/ <m n ny ng>
/á ā à â/ <ap a at ax>

Thinking about killing some of the coronals -- it's too Chinese-like now -- or adding /pɕ bʑ/ as allowed onsets.
Palatalized distinction of retroflex consonants before front vowels, i.e. a merger of palatal and retroflex. (I still have a time with that one.) Keep the palatal nasal...except the syllabic <ny>. (It sounds odd to me, honestly.) The contrast of the proposed merger and your <jj~ny> seems neat for some reason.
I'm not sure what the palatal nasals would come from diachronically -- I think it can only come from *ning, with various preinitials, so it might not be able to occur with low tone. I might just have all the syllabic nasals merge into -ng. Then if I feel like making a descendant I can add some vowel-distorting erhua shit.

Merging retroflexes into palatals seems like the right way to go, since there's no retroflex nasal.
DesEsseintes wrote:My two cents' worth: Definitely add /pɕ bʑ/ as initial clusters (and if phonotactics are otherwise fairly restrictive consider analysing them as phonemes?). Remove the retroflexes?
The only reason I don't want to do that is that Amqoli has /pʃ bʒ/ that act sort of like units. seems like recycling ideas. Then again, Duhai has a fricated vowel that produces syllabic nasals, just like Vian...

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by cedh » 16 Oct 2014 17:34

Here's the phonology of a protolanguage tentatively called Proto-Sāri.

Consonants:
/p t k kʷ ʔ/
/β ð ɣ ɣʷ/
/s ʃ/
/m n/
/l/

The "voiced fricatives" /β ð ɣ ɣʷ/ vary between plosives [b d ɡ ɡʷ], fricatives [β ð ɣ ɣʷ], and approximants [ʋ ɹ ɰ w] depending on their position in the word.

Vowels:
/i e a o u ə/
/ai au əi əu/

Syllable structure:
C(C)V(C)

Onset:
- any single consonant (but /ʔ/ does not occur word-initially)
- a cluster of two non-homoorganic consonants out of the set /p t k kʷ/ (with /kʷ/ only being distinctive after /p t/)
- a cluster of two non-homoorganic consonants out of the set /β ð ɣ ɣʷ/ (with /ɣʷ/ only being distinctive after /β ð/)
- a cluster of any non-labialized consonant followed by one of /m n l/
- geminate consonants are not allowed

Nucleus:
- a single vowel
- a diphthong (only in open syllables)

Coda:
- any single non-labialized consonant (word-medially)
- /p t k s ʃ m n l/ (word-finally, but all except /m n/ are rare)

Word-medial consonant clusters may not exceed two consonants. However, across a syllable boundary, geminates are allowed, obstruents do not assimilate in voicing, and nasals do not assimilate in place of articulation.

Roots are typically disyllabic. A root may contain a maximum of only one coda consonant and/or one diphthong though.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Shemtov » 20 Oct 2014 22:49

Куци/Kutsi: a surviving descendant of Tocharian B.

/p t ts k/ <<п т ц к> <p t ts k>
/s h/ <с х> <s h>
/m n/ <м н> <m n>
/l/ <л> <l>

/i y u ɨ/ <и ү у ы> <i y u ia>
/e o ø/ <е о ө> <e o oe>
/ә/ <ә> <a>
/a/ <a> <aa>

Example words:
Нәс/nas: 1p sing. pronoun
Тәләк/Talak: 30
Цөтук/Tsoetuk: Enemy
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by CMunk » 23 Oct 2014 01:35

Okay, here's a slightly big post of a phonology, that I am working on, and might create a language out of.

Inventory
A very simple and symmetric phoneme inventory:

Code: Select all

{C}onsonants:
/m n ŋ/  <m n ň>  {N}asals
/p t k/  <p t k>  {P}losives
/f s ʃ/  <f s š>  {F}ricatives
  /l/      <l>    {L}iquids

{V}owels:
/i y u/  <i ü u>
/e ø o/  <e ö o>
    /ɑ/      <a>
Syllable Structure
But the phonotactics feature a pretty complex syllable structure. The letters represent the groups above that have a letter in curly brackets.
Basically, the structure is as follows:

Code: Select all

Onset           | Neucl.| Coda
(F)(P)(F)(N)(L) |  V(V) | (L/N/P)(F)(P)(F)
All places in the onset are never filled, though, so the maximum syllable looks like this:
CCCVVCCCC

Vowel Clusters / Diphthongs
The second vowel in a vowel cluster must be /i/ or /u/. They are laxed and de-syllabified to [ɪ̯] and [ʊ̯], and if the first vowel is rounded /i/ becomes [ʏ̯]
The first vowel cannot be /i/, /y/ or /u/ (or if they are they are lowered to [e] [ø] and [o])
So the possible diphthongs are:

Code: Select all

Diphthongs:
/ei eu øi øu oi ou/  [eɪ̯ eʊ̯ øʏ̯ øʊ̯ oʏ̯ oʊ̯]  <ei eu öi öu oi ou>
            /ɑi ɑu/              [ɑɪ̯ ɑʊ̯]              <ai au>
Onset Consonant Clusters
Though all clusters can fit into the structure (F)(P)(F)(N)(L), a few more restrictions apply:
NL is a possible structure, except for /nl/ (i.e. /ml/ and /ŋl/ are legal clusters)
F(N)(L) also represents possible clusters, (i.e. a fricative can be followed by a nasal or a liquid or both)
(F)P(N/L), i.e. a plosive can be followed by either a nasal or a liquid, and may be preceeded by a fricative. But a nasal directly following a plosive must have a different p.o.a.
PF(N/L), i.e. a plosive can be followed by a fricative and then a nasal or a liquid.
(s/š)f(N/L)
Which means all possible onset clusters are:
Spoiler:
All consonants can be in the onset alone. Also this is the order, in which I have alphabetized the clusters below. The colour codes refer to the structures above.
m, n, ň, p, t, k, f, s, š, l

Two-consonant onsets:
ml, ňl, pn, , pf, ps, , pl, tm, , tf, ts, , tl, km, kn, kf, ks, , kl, fm, fn, , fp, ft, fk, fl, sm, sn, , sp, st, sk, sf, sl, šm, šn, šň, šp, št, šk, šf, šl

Three-consonant onsets:
pfm, pfn, pfň, pfl, psm, psn, psň, psl, pšm, pšn, pšň, pšl, tfm, tfn, tfň, tfl, tsm, tsn, tsň, tsl, tšm, tšn, tšň, tšl, kfm, kfn, kfň, kfl, ksm, ksn, ksň, ksl, kšm, kšn, kšň, kšl, fml, fňl, fpn, fpň, fpl, ftm, ftň, ftl, fkm, fkn, fkl, sml, sňl, spn, spň, spl, stm, stň, stl, skm, skn, skl, sfm, sfn, sfň, šml, šňl, špn, špň, špl, štm, štň, štl, škm, škn, škl, šfm, šfn, šfň
Coda Consonant Clusters
These follow the structure (L/N/P)(F)(P)(F), but not all combinations are possible:
(L/N/P)F(P)
(L/N)(F)P(F)
(p/k)t(F)
Furthermore, a nasal directly followed by a plosive must have the same p.o.a. as the plosive.
So all these clusters are possible syllable codas:
Spoiler:
Again all individual consonants can be the coda:
m, n, ň, p, t, k, f, s, š, l

Two-consonant codas:
mp, mf, ms, , nt, nf, ns, , ňk, ňf, ňs, ňš, pt, pf, ps, , tf, ts, , kt, kf, ks, , fp, ft, fk, sp, st, sk, šp, št, šk, lp, lt, lk, lf, ls,

Three-consonant codas:
mpf, mps, mpš, mfp, mft, mfk, msp, mst, msk, mšp, mšt, mšk, ntf, nts, ntš, nfp, nft, nfk, nsp, nst, nsk, nšp, nšt, nšk, ňkf, ňks, ňkš, ňfp, ňft, ňfk, ňsp, ňst, ňsk, ňšp, ňšt, ňšk, ptf, pts, ptš, pfp, pft, pfk, psp, pst, psk, pšp, pšt, pšk, tfp, tft, tfk, tsp, tst, tsk, tšp, tšt, tšk, ktf, kts, ktš, kfp, kft, kfk, ksp, kst, ksk, kšp, kšt, kšk, fpf, fps, fpš, ftf, fts, ftš, fkf, fks, fkš, spf, sps, spš, stf, sts, stš, skf, sks, skš, špf, šps, špš, štf, šts, štš, škf, šks, škš, lpf, lps, lpš, ltf, lts, ltš, lkf, lks, lkš, lfp, lft, lfk, lsp, lst, lsk, lšp, lšt, lšk

Four-consonant codas:
mfpf, mfps, mfpš, mftf, mfts, mftš, mfkf, mfks, mfkš, mspf, msps, mspš, mstf, msts, mstš, mskf, msks, mskš, mšpf, mšps, mšpš, mštf, mšts, mštš, mškf, mšks, mškš, nfpf, nfps, nfpš, nftf, nfts, nftš, nfkf, nfks, nfkš, nspf, nsps, nspš, nstf, nsts, nstš, nskf, nsks, nskš, nšpf, nšps, nšpš, nštf, nšts, nštš, nškf, nšks, nškš, ňfpf, ňfps, ňfpš, ňftf, ňfts, ňftš, ňfkf, ňfks, ňfkš, ňspf, ňsps, ňspš, ňstf, ňsts, ňstš, ňskf, ňsks, ňskš, ňšpf, ňšps, ňšpš, ňštf, ňšts, ňštš, ňškf, ňšks, ňškš, lfpf, lfps, lfpš, lftf, lfts, lftš, lfkf, lfks, lfkš, lspf, lsps, lspš, lstf, lsts, lstš, lskf, lsks, lskš, lšpf, lšps, lšpš, lštf, lšts, lštš, lškf, lšks, lškš
Okay, I know that some of these coda clusters are a bit weird - especially the ones that have two of the same phoneme in them - but this is still a work in progress. The thing is, I am trying to get further than germanocentric consonant clusters, although they are probably the inspiration for this (I mean, just look at the words Herbst and Zukunft).
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 23 Oct 2014 03:04

I really like the looks of that! Especially how you've detailed all the restrictions, and how a comparatively small inventory can yield so many possible clusters. Have you thought about clusters occurring because of two morphemes coming together, or will this language be very analytic?

It's funny, but the two words you chose to demonstrate Germanic clusters would probably be in the top ten on a list of my favorite German words.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by CMunk » 23 Oct 2014 03:17

shimobaatar wrote:I really like the looks of that! Especially how you've detailed all the restrictions, and how a comparatively small inventory can yield so many possible clusters.
Thank you. I have often made inventories with many exotic sounds, but that just makes it hard to get an overview of the possible combinations. I really like the simplicity of this :)
shimobaatar wrote:Have you thought about clusters occurring because of two morphemes coming together, or will this language be very analytic?
I have definitely thought of using consonant morphemes to create clusters. Much like the English -s can go on so many words, I thought of having an -f suffix (or possibly infix) that would be very productive.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 23 Oct 2014 03:20

CMunk wrote:I have definitely thought of using consonant morphemes to create clusters. Much like the English -s can go on so many words, I thought of having an -f suffix (or possibly infix) that would be very productive.
That's not exactly what I meant. Would your language have compound words of some sort? What I was trying to ask was, what if you have a two-morpheme word, where the first morpheme ends in lškf, and the second morpheme begins with tsň?

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by CMunk » 23 Oct 2014 03:56

shimobaatar wrote:
CMunk wrote:I have definitely thought of using consonant morphemes to create clusters. Much like the English -s can go on so many words, I thought of having an -f suffix (or possibly infix) that would be very productive.
That's not exactly what I meant. Would your language have compound words of some sort? What I was trying to ask was, what if you have a two-morpheme word, where the first morpheme ends in lškf, and the second morpheme begins with tsň?
I think so. Words like pfnailškf + tsňoipts = pfnailškftsňoipts will of course be fun to have, but I'm thinking they will be rare. I feel, some of the beauty of consonant-heavy words is in their rarity. Maybe if I have words with only consonants in one end, I could make words, that are elegant by themsefles, but make heavy clusters together, such as anftš + pflo = anftšpflo. In Danish the word with the most consecutive consonants is angstskrig [ɑŋˀsd̥.sɡ̊ʁ̥iːˀ] and it works on the same principle. I haven't given it much thought yet, but I'm quite sure there will be instances of consonant "superclusters".
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 23 Oct 2014 04:03

angstskrig [ɑŋˀsd̥.sɡ̊ʁ̥iːˀ]

But that's easy to pronounce! [:P]
Spoiler:
Last time I was in Copenhagen I tried to ask the way to Norrebrøgade (correct spelling?). I failed.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 23 Oct 2014 04:15

CMunk wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:
CMunk wrote:I have definitely thought of using consonant morphemes to create clusters. Much like the English -s can go on so many words, I thought of having an -f suffix (or possibly infix) that would be very productive.
That's not exactly what I meant. Would your language have compound words of some sort? What I was trying to ask was, what if you have a two-morpheme word, where the first morpheme ends in lškf, and the second morpheme begins with tsň?
I think so. Words like pfnailškf + tsňoipts = pfnailškftsňoipts will of course be fun to have, but I'm thinking they will be rare. I feel, some of the beauty of consonant-heavy words is in their rarity. Maybe if I have words with only consonants in one end, I could make words, that are elegant by themsefles, but make heavy clusters together, such as anftš + pflo = anftšpflo. In Danish the word with the most consecutive consonants is angstskrig [ɑŋˀsd̥.sɡ̊ʁ̥iːˀ] and it works on the same principle. I haven't given it much thought yet, but I'm quite sure there will be instances of consonant "superclusters".
Haha, "superclusters". [:D]

Very cool, though!
Spoiler:
And I looked up that Danish word. I assumed it meant something like "war on terror", since I was almost certain angst (Da.) = Angst (De. "fear"), and that krig (Da.) was cognate to Krieg (De. "war"). It turns out both of those were correct, but I overlooked the s between angst and krig, because in German, s is sometimes inserted between two words forming a compound. More Googling then gave me skrig (Da.) which I suspect is related to Schrei (De. "scream"). I should have payed more attention to the IPA. The syllable boundary would have made the s in skrig more obvious to me, and the fact that final g seems to be vocalized in Danish (and perhaps Norwegian and Swedish? I can't remember) would have made the connection between skrig and Schrei more obvious as well.

Whew, sorry about that. The Germanic family is just really interesting to me.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by CMunk » 23 Oct 2014 04:52

@DesEsseintes:
Spoiler:
DesEsseintes wrote:Last time I was in Copenhagen I tried to ask the way to Norrebrøgade (correct spelling?). I failed.
The o's are the other way around in Nørrebrogade [;)] And it's [nœː.ɐ.ˈb̥ʁo.ɡ̊æː.ð̩] if you want to practice [:P]
@shimobaatar:
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote:And I looked up that Danish word. I assumed it meant something like "war on terror", since I was almost certain angst (Da.) = Angst (De. "fear"), and that krig (Da.) was cognate to Krieg (De. "war"). It turns out both of those were correct, but I overlooked the s between angst and krig, because in German, s is sometimes inserted between two words forming a compound. More Googling then gave me skrig (Da.) which I suspect is related to Schrei (De. "scream"). I should have payed more attention to the IPA. The syllable boundary would have made the s in skrig more obvious to me, and the fact that final g seems to be vocalized in Danish (and perhaps Norwegian and Swedish? I can't remember) would have made the connection between skrig and Schrei more obvious as well.

Whew, sorry about that. The Germanic family is just really interesting to me.
Danish also sometimes uses an -s- to connect compound nouns, so it's an easy mistake to make. The Dansh word krig is pronounced [kʰʁ̥iːˀ] without a [g], as well. Don't be sorry, germanic languages are awesome [;)]
Native: :dan: | Fluent: :uk: | Less than fluent: :deu:, :jpn:, :epo: | Beginner: Image, :fao:, :non:
Creating: :con:Jwar Nong, :con:Mhmmz

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DesEsseintes
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 23 Oct 2014 08:02

This is my third attempt at creating a phonology for Chimneyspeak, the long-lost conlang of my childhood.

The phonology is meant to be a mix of Mandarin and Sumerian. The lang will be deliberately noobish and highly agglutinative.

Consonants

/m n ŋ/ m n ng
/p b t d k g q/ p b t d k g q
/t͡s d͡z (t͡ɕ d͡ʑ) t͡ʂ d͡ʐ/ ts dz cı/cy dȷı/dȷy č dž
/s z (ɕ ʑ) ʂ ʐ h/ s z xı/xy ȷı/ȷy š ž h
/l j ɥ w/ l ı/y y u/v
/ɻ/ r

Vowels

/a e i o u y/ a e ı o u y

Permitted glide+vowel combinations

/(ja) je jo/
/wa we/
/ɥe/

Syllable Structure

Word-initial (C)(G)V(C)
Medial C(G)V(C)

Permissible codas are any of /m n ŋ t k s z ʂ ɻ l/

Allophony

- /t͡s d͡z/ are realised [t͡ɕ d͡ʑ] before /i y j ɥ/
- /i/ backs to [ɨ] following /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ ɻ/
- /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ ɻ/ cannot occur before /y j ɥ/
- all other consonants are palatalised before /i y j ɥ/
- labial consonants do not precede labial glides /ɥ w/
- /jo we/ are often realised [joʊ̯~juː weɪ̯-wiː]
- /q/ only occurs before /a o/ and never before a glide
- /l/ is velarised [ɫ] following central and back vowels
- /ŋ/ backs to [ɴ] following central and back vowels and/or before /q/
- nasals otherwise do not assimilate to the PoA of a following consonant
- I haven't decided what happens to /k t/ before stops and affricates, but they may assimilate.

Sample Words

nuš - man
nıergıš - moon
yehueš - ?
vunnulqaš - ?

is some sort of noun marker, possibly nominative/absolute case
Last edited by DesEsseintes on 23 Oct 2014 08:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » 23 Oct 2014 08:12

How will the chimneys romanize /ʂ ʐ h/?

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » 23 Oct 2014 08:22

shimobaatar wrote:How will the chimneys romanize /ʂ ʐ h/?
Oops!

Thanks for the catch. I'm so absent-minded today... [:$]

I will edit in the romanisations presently.
Edit: Done!

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