Californian Polynesian

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by DV82LECM » 02 Dec 2019 13:59

GoshDiggityDangit wrote:
02 Dec 2019 06:15
DV82LECM wrote:
02 Dec 2019 03:39
I'm STILL shocked to hell you took my idea and ran with it, but you missed one minor detail, unless I'm mistaken: Proto-Polynesian had *s.
That’s true, but I’m not going from Proto-Polynesian. I’m going from Proto-Eastern-Polynesian, and /s/ merged with /h/ in Eastern-Polynesian.
In none of my readings have I ever seen a page making this distinction. Thank you for clearing that up.

EDIT: I just saw this. The main thing I wanted to do with Mainland was the loss of the labial plosives. In what you had, you have a lot of labial representation: /m p b f v w/. (You mentioned everything perfectly, except the sound changes getting rid of /p/; becomes /f/, initially, and /w/, medially. If you want to fuse /v/ into /f/, too...I'm okay with that, but I'd rather keep it.) Also, I intended to make /ʔ/ > /h/. Initial glottal stop is the devil.

But I'm down with however you decide this should go. It's your baby.

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by GoshDiggityDangit » 03 Dec 2019 06:24

DV82LECM wrote:
02 Dec 2019 13:59
EDIT: I just saw this. The main thing I wanted to do with Mainland was the loss of the labial plosives. In what you had, you have a lot of labial representation: /m p b f v w/. (You mentioned everything perfectly, except the sound changes getting rid of /p/; becomes /f/, initially, and /w/, medially. If you want to fuse /v/ into /f/, too...I'm okay with that, but I'd rather keep it.) Also, I intended to make /ʔ/ > /h/. Initial glottal stop is the devil.

But I'm down with however you decide this should go. It's your baby.
Frankly, I love /p/ to much to get rid of it. Had I disliked your proposed sound changes, /b/ would probably be there too (it’s so good for onomatopoeia and ideophones).

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by DV82LECM » 03 Dec 2019 06:52

GoshDiggityDangit wrote:
03 Dec 2019 06:24
DV82LECM wrote:
02 Dec 2019 13:59
EDIT: I just saw this. The main thing I wanted to do with Mainland was the loss of the labial plosives. In what you had, you have a lot of labial representation: /m p b f v w/. (You mentioned everything perfectly, except the sound changes getting rid of /p/; becomes /f/, initially, and /w/, medially. If you want to fuse /v/ into /f/, too...I'm okay with that, but I'd rather keep it.) Also, I intended to make /ʔ/ > /h/. Initial glottal stop is the devil.

But I'm down with however you decide this should go. It's your baby.
Frankly, I love /p/ to much to get rid of it. Had I disliked your proposed sound changes, /b/ would probably be there too (it’s so good for onomatopoeia and ideophones).
Then Mainland Coronado is (?):

/m n/
/p t k/
/f v h/
/w ɾ j/

/i u a/
/i: u: a:/

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by Ser » 03 Dec 2019 07:29

This thread reminds me, something I've always found fun is that the practice of blackening teeth with a layer of lacquer in order to protect them into old age was historically found in Japan, Micronesia, parts of the Philippines, parts of the Chinese mainland close to the Philippines (the practice is mentioned in ancient Chinese texts regarding the people of Yue), and Southeast Asia. In these areas there was a tendency to associate this with adult women in particular, and it was costly and considered beautiful.

Coincidentally, a similar practice was found in indigenous tribes of Ecuador and Northern Peru, the difference being that these peoples did it by processing a local plant, usually believed to be some species of the Calatola genus. It's probably just a coincidence, but I've sometimes wondered whether some enterprising Micronesians hopped off Polynesian islands and eventually reached the Ecuadorian protrusion just one or two centuries before the arrival of the Spanish...

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by GoshDiggityDangit » 03 Dec 2019 08:10

DV82LECM wrote:
03 Dec 2019 06:52
Then Mainland Coronado is (?):

/m n/
/p t k/
/f v h/
/w ɾ j/

/i u a/
/i: u: a:/
Looks just about like it. Look at how symmetrical it is!

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by GoshDiggityDangit » 03 Dec 2019 08:16

Ser wrote:
03 Dec 2019 07:29
This thread reminds me, something I've always found fun is that the practice of blackening teeth with a layer of lacquer in order to protect them into old age was historically found in Japan, Micronesia, parts of the Philippines, parts of the Chinese mainland close to the Philippines (the practice is mentioned in ancient Chinese texts regarding the people of Yue), and Southeast Asia. In these areas there was a tendency to associate this with adult women in particular, and it was costly and considered beautiful.

Coincidentally, a similar practice was found in indigenous tribes of Ecuador and Northern Peru, the difference being that these peoples did it by processing a local plant, usually believed to be some species of the Calatola genus. It's probably just a coincidence, but I've sometimes wondered whether some enterprising Micronesians hopped off Polynesian islands and eventually reached the Ecuadorian protrusion just one or two centuries before the arrival of the Spanish...
Don’t you get me thinking about making another Poly-Lang.

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by Ser » 03 Dec 2019 08:28

GoshDiggityDangit wrote:
03 Dec 2019 08:16
Don’t you get me thinking about making another Poly-Lang.
lol I think this is the first time I see "poly-lang" meaning "Polynesian conlang". I've seen "polylang" before, but meaning "polysynthetic conlang".

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by Vlürch » 03 Dec 2019 08:38

This is a really cool idea! [:D] I've never really been into Polynesian languages except that one time Japan and New Zealand switched places for like two days, but I'll be excited to follow your progress. A Polynesian language in California makes sense and could lead to a lot of interesting stuff both in terms of the conlang and the conculture, especially if it survived into the modern day and maybe also got influenced by Spanish at some point or whatever.

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by GoshDiggityDangit » 03 Dec 2019 08:57

Ser wrote:
03 Dec 2019 08:28
lol I think this is the first time I see "poly-lang" meaning "Polynesian conlang". I've seen "polylang" before, but meaning "polysynthetic conlang".
Easy: Poly-Lang refers to Polynesian Languages, and polylang refers to Polysynthetic Languages.
Vlürch wrote:
03 Dec 2019 08:38
This is a really cool idea!
Thanks!

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by DV82LECM » 03 Dec 2019 15:05

GoshDiggityDangit wrote:
03 Dec 2019 08:10
DV82LECM wrote:
03 Dec 2019 06:52
Then Mainland Coronado is (?):

/m n/
/p t k/
/f v h/
/w ɾ j/

/i u a/
/i: u: a:/
Looks just about like it. Look at how symmetrical it is!
Oh, alright! LOL.

EDIT: Doing a little MORE research, I forgot a major facet of San Diego bay (God, I am forgetting my home). Right to the northwest -- really west -- of Coronado Island, there is a horn that protrudes Southwest to a point. My thinking is that Coronado Island can be where they landed, for the sake of it being an island, and the mainlanders could have gone to the horn.

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by Salmoneus » 03 Dec 2019 19:25

DV82LECM wrote:
03 Dec 2019 15:05

EDIT: Doing a little MORE research, I forgot a major facet of San Diego bay (God, I am forgetting my home). Right to the northwest -- really west -- of Coronado Island, there is a horn that protrudes Southwest to a point. My thinking is that Coronado Island can be where they landed, for the sake of it being an island, and the mainlanders could have gone to the horn.
I must say I don't particularly understand this whole scenario anyway.

So, Hawai'ians cross over two thousand miles of ocean, discover both mainland california and presumably the entire archipelago just off its coast, but then continue on for another couple of hundred miles, into a more arid area, so that they can settle on the four barren, windscoured Coronado Islands in Mexico, islands so wretched that mankind has never bothered to inhabit them in our timeline. Why do they do this?

And given that even the largest of the Coronado Islands is one mile long and a few hundred metres wide (most of which is steep rocky slope), how large a population could they realistically support for hundreds of years?


[FWIW, the closest landing point in California from Hawai'i would actually be in Northern California, not Southern. That said, it's believable that prevailing currents might encourage the polynesians to make their first landing further south]

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by DV82LECM » 03 Dec 2019 21:59

Salmoneus wrote:
03 Dec 2019 19:25
DV82LECM wrote:
03 Dec 2019 15:05

EDIT: Doing a little MORE research, I forgot a major facet of San Diego bay (God, I am forgetting my home). Right to the northwest -- really west -- of Coronado Island, there is a horn that protrudes Southwest to a point. My thinking is that Coronado Island can be where they landed, for the sake of it being an island, and the mainlanders could have gone to the horn.
I must say I don't particularly understand this whole scenario anyway.

So, Hawai'ians cross over two thousand miles of ocean, discover both mainland california and presumably the entire archipelago just off its coast, but then continue on for another couple of hundred miles, into a more arid area, so that they can settle on the four barren, windscoured Coronado Islands in Mexico, islands so wretched that mankind has never bothered to inhabit them in our timeline. Why do they do this?

And given that even the largest of the Coronado Islands is one mile long and a few hundred metres wide (most of which is steep rocky slope), how large a population could they realistically support for hundreds of years?


[FWIW, the closest landing point in California from Hawai'i would actually be in Northern California, not Southern. That said, it's believable that prevailing currents might encourage the polynesians to make their first landing further south]
Valid points. Honestly, I feel like this was slapped together. I got myself caught up in it. I just knew of an island off of the coast of the city where I'm FROM and recommended it WITHOUT research.

GDD, it's your project again, bud. I'm out.

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by Backstroke_Italics » 03 Dec 2019 22:04

Salmoneus wrote:
03 Dec 2019 19:25

So, Hawai'ians cross over two thousand miles of ocean, discover both mainland california and presumably the entire archipelago just off its coast, but then continue on for another couple of hundred miles, into a more arid area, so that they can settle on the four barren, windscoured Coronado Islands in Mexico, islands so wretched that mankind has never bothered to inhabit them in our timeline. Why do they do this?

And given that even the largest of the Coronado Islands is one mile long and a few hundred metres wide (most of which is steep rocky slope), how large a population could they realistically support for hundreds of years?
Psst, I think they're talking about Coronado Island, not the Coronado Islands. Coronado Island has a population of around 20 thousand, a fresh water aquifer, and previously an ostrich farm. Sounds like a good place to settle to me.

I think the bigger question is: where does taro grow in California? Because that's going to determine where you can have a Polynesian settlement. In southern California, taro grows very well as long as it's irrigated, otherwise not so much. To get adequate rainfall right along the coast you have to go pretty far north, basically Monterey Bay. Less fun island-hopping, and consequently more hostile interactions with the locals, but hey, at least you'll have lots of Polynesians in the background of Steinbeck novels in this timeline.

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by Salmoneus » 03 Dec 2019 22:29

Backstroke_Italics wrote:
03 Dec 2019 22:04
Salmoneus wrote:
03 Dec 2019 19:25

So, Hawai'ians cross over two thousand miles of ocean, discover both mainland california and presumably the entire archipelago just off its coast, but then continue on for another couple of hundred miles, into a more arid area, so that they can settle on the four barren, windscoured Coronado Islands in Mexico, islands so wretched that mankind has never bothered to inhabit them in our timeline. Why do they do this?

And given that even the largest of the Coronado Islands is one mile long and a few hundred metres wide (most of which is steep rocky slope), how large a population could they realistically support for hundreds of years?
Psst, I think they're talking about Coronado Island, not the Coronado Islands. Coronado Island has a population of around 20 thousand, a fresh water aquifer, and previously an ostrich farm. Sounds like a good place to settle to me.
I assumed they weren't talking about Coronado Island, because they seemed to be talking about an island, and Coronado Island notably isn't an island. Although maybe it was an island a few centuries ago? I can't find anything that says one way or the other. Even so, that Coronado "Island" is still less than a mile in either dimension. [sure, you can have tens of thousands of inhabitants on any rock, in the modern world, if it's adjacent to a city...]

I guess it seemed strange to move a people thousands of miles, and then specify a new homeland only a couple of square miles in size, and then split that into two different tribes (island and mainland) separated by a stretch of water you could throw things across if you had a big catapult. I mean, out of the entire coastline of California, including the archipelago, why would they have to land specifically in the limits of modern San Diego and stay confined in such a small place? It's not impossible, if OP has a reason for it, but it seems strange.

[Since Central Coronado (in the Coronado Islands) is apparently also known as Isla Coronado, I assumed they meant there, or were confusing it with South Island.

[there's also helpfully an Isla Coronado AND an Isla Coronados on the OTHER side of Baja... the explorers in those parts clearly weren't too imaginative...]]



but I also didn't mean that DV8 should stop giving ideas.




[Personally, it would make sense to me to enlarge that scenario and move it north, and have the settlers land on all or some of the channel islands, and then have secondary expeditions to the mainland; they could well colonise the San Diego area from such a toehold, if the OP wanted that.]

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by GoshDiggityDangit » 04 Dec 2019 00:33

Man, the most interesting stuff on this thread happens while I’m asleep.

Salmon, you make a strong point. To preserve the Island/Mainland distinction, I’ll move them up to the Santa Catalina and San Clemente islands, which were historically and currently inhabited. A second group will come from the islands to the mainland. Instead of Kumeyaay influencing the language, Tongva will. And the Tongva are alternately called the Gabrieliño, and my real name is Gabriel. How lucky could I be?

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by DV82LECM » 04 Dec 2019 00:38

GoshDiggityDangit wrote:
04 Dec 2019 00:33
Man, the most interesting stuff on this thread happens while I’m asleep.

Salmon, you make a strong point. To preserve the Island/Mainland distinction, I’ll move them up to the Santa Catalina and San Clemente islands, which were historically and currently inhabited. A second group will come from the islands to the mainland. Instead of Kumeyaay influencing the language, Tongva will. And the Tongva are alternately called the Gabrieliño, and my real name is Gabriel. How lucky could I be?
I did not know that they were talking about the Coronado islands, somewhere I have not done much research in and do not know where are geographically. Would you be willing to have me back in the project? I am sorry for being a fair weather conlanger. I do not tend to deal with indirect, implied humiliation well.

Would you even want this to be a collaborative effort, at this point?

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by Salmoneus » 04 Dec 2019 02:21

DV82LECM wrote:
04 Dec 2019 00:38
Would you be willing to have me back in the project?
Would you even want this to be a collaborative effort, at this point?
Oh, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted the situation. I didn't realise that this had been a collaborative effort - I saw you giving instructions, but I'd assumed you were just being a bit... enthusiastic... in thinking out loud. I thought this was just GDD's project. If I'd realised it was a collaborative project and you were one of the co-owners, I'd probably have been less forthright in my pushback. Obviously if it's your project, you should do whatever you want!


[The Coronado Islands are a small group of islands off the coast of San Diego. Or, more accurately, off the coast of Tijuana, as they're just south of the border. They're about 8 miles offshore - so if you're standing in the middle of San Diego proper, they're about 20 miles southwest of you. ]



GDD: that scenario makes more sense to me. Although I suspect that if this had really happened, the polynesians would probably have inhabited the entire archipelago (gaining a Chumash influence as well). They'd also probably have made more of an impact on the mainland as well (being probably more advanced than the natives), although to be fair it's believable that the native population might eventually have fought them off.]

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by GoshDiggityDangit » 04 Dec 2019 02:34

DV82LECM wrote:
04 Dec 2019 00:38
I did not know that they were talking about the Coronado islands, somewhere I have not done much research in and do not know where are geographically. Would you be willing to have me back in the project? I am sorry for being a fair weather conlanger. I do not tend to deal with indirect, implied humiliation well.

Would you even want this to be a collaborative effort, at this point?
Absolutely! Without your input, this thread would be moribund, not to mention the fact that I would never have come up with the Island/Mainland stuff by myself. I would’ve had them land on the mainland and work from there. You’re contribution is much appreciated by me.

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by DV82LECM » 04 Dec 2019 02:47

GoshDiggityDangit wrote:
04 Dec 2019 02:34
DV82LECM wrote:
04 Dec 2019 00:38
I did not know that they were talking about the Coronado islands, somewhere I have not done much research in and do not know where are geographically. Would you be willing to have me back in the project? I am sorry for being a fair weather conlanger. I do not tend to deal with indirect, implied humiliation well.

Would you even want this to be a collaborative effort, at this point?
Absolutely! Without your input, this thread would be moribund, not to mention the fact that I would never have come up with the Island/Mainland stuff by myself. I would’ve had them land on the mainland and work from there. You’re contribution is much appreciated by me.
Thanks. Although, I don't know what I can add for the fact that I, yes, had lived in California for most of my life, but I don't know a lot about the county that you are thinking to set the scene. But I guess I can, I did live in Anaheim and San Diego, so basically southern California for most of my life.

So, instead of calling it Coronado, call it Catalina.

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Re: Californian Polynesian

Post by GoshDiggityDangit » 04 Dec 2019 12:40

With the sound changes (mostly) finalized, I now don’t know what to do and where to take the project. I can’t find anything more for lexicon than a Swadesh list that is free for Proto-Polynesian. I have a paper about Proto-Polynesian possession, and that’s it. And for the influencing languages of the area, I can’t find anything at all for either Island Chumash or Island Tongva. Nothing at all! If anyone can point me to some resources, it would be greatly appreciated by me.

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