Random ideas: Morphosyntax

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 28 Sep 2014 13:34

I had an idea for a fusional verb system(I'm sure ANADEW):
  • There is some kind of verbal space, indicating where the action takes place, with a fourfold distinction: Proximate (near me), Medial (near you), Distal(far), Obvial (very far)
  • There are affixes that indicates motion: motion towards, motions away from, motion through something, motion at or in something
  • There is a rather rich evidentiality system: visual, non-visual, hearsay, quotative, inferential
  • Sentence mood is marked on the verb to (alog with negation): imperative, prohibitive, interrogative, negative.
If this would really be a fusional system, you could have utterances like:

O tia-qué.
3.SG walk-DIST.TO.VIS.IND
I saw him going there by feet.

Would you call such a language polysynthetic?
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by thetha » 28 Sep 2014 16:08

If it's fusional then it shouldn't have a high morpheme-to-word ratio which makes it not polysynthetic.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Micamo » 02 Oct 2014 05:18

Teddy wrote:If it's fusional then it shouldn't have a high morpheme-to-word ratio which makes it not polysynthetic.
Who says? You can have highly fusional polylangs, e.g. Tlingit.
My pronouns are <xe> [ziː] / <xym> [zɪm] / <xys> [zɪz]

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by thaen » 02 Oct 2014 07:40

Doesn't fusional imply a polyexponentiality? That is, there are more than one morpheme in some or all affixes, stem changes, or what have you?
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Micamo » 02 Oct 2014 08:03

thaen wrote:Doesn't fusional imply a polyexponentiality? That is, there are more than one morpheme in some or all affixes, stem changes, or what have you?
Not necessarily. Fusion just means that morphemes have a high degree of mutability depending on their environment. Polyexponence is just the most extreme form of this, where it's no longer synchronically possible to tell where one morpheme begins and another ends.

Unless of course you're using the "traditional" meaning of the word, where Agglutinative = Turkish, Isolating = Chinese, Fusional = Latin, and Polysynthetic = Inuit, but this categorization is worse than useless anyway.
My pronouns are <xe> [ziː] / <xym> [zɪm] / <xys> [zɪz]

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by thetha » 02 Oct 2014 19:01

I was using the old definition.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by thaen » 02 Oct 2014 21:00

So some Spanish verb endings have a high degree of polyexponence, then, right?

Could agglutinating langs have some morpheme clusters morph into one over time, thus making at least some parts of it fusional, eventually attaining polyexponence?
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 02 Oct 2014 21:56

Yes
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by quadrilabial » 27 Nov 2014 19:52

A Future English idea: as an extension of the contraction of "I'm gonna" into "I'ma," the immediate future comes to be expressed with "ma" /mə/ in the first person singular and "na" /nə/ for other subjects, as in "I ma do," "you na do," "she na do," "we na do," "y'all na do," "they na do." As far as I know, "I'ma" is an AAVE innovation, and the first person singular is the one form of the present-tense copula that can't be deleted in AAVE, thus the invariance of "na" for non-first-singular subjects; otherwise I'd probably do something like "I'ma," "you'ra," "she'sa," "we'ra," "y'all'ra," "they'ra," reflecting the Standard conjugations of the copula.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 14 Feb 2015 00:50

What about a languages that has morphemes which are coding an inverse-direct-system as well as switch-reference in verbal and clausal chains? What consequences would that have?
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 14 Feb 2015 02:23

Creyeditor wrote:What about a languages that has morphemes which are coding an inverse-direct-system as well as switch-reference in verbal and clausal chains? What consequences would that have?
(1) I should think it would be possible to construct such a conlang.
(2) I should think that attempting to construct such a conlang would be the fastest and easiest and surest way to answer the "What consequences would that have?" part of your question.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 15 Feb 2015 16:36

Okay, I'm gonna try an ad-hoc-lang.
There is a simple saliency hierarchie: 2 human> 1 human > 3 human prox > 3 hum obv
I'm not gonna invent an actual phonology on this one.
Just some examples:

I would say, that same subject markers are somewhat simpler and more unmarked, so I use them in non-chained verbs, too.

(1)
a. Aff1-stem1
1SG.3SG.DIR.SS-teach
'I teach him. '

b. Aff2-stem1
1SG.3SG.INV.SS-teach
'He teaches me. '

Up to this point, one could also analyze it another way (repeated from above):

(2)
a. Aff1-stem1
1>3-teach
'I teach him. '

b. Aff2-stem1
3>1-teach
'He teaches me. '

The only way to prove some inverse, if I'm not mistaken, is through the absence of some marker of an umarked configuration.

(3)
a. Aff3-stem2
3SG.3SG.INV.SS-hit
'The other one hits him. '

b. ∅-stem2
3SG.3SG.DIR.SS-hit
'He hits the other one.'

So we could group all the affixes in different categories for direct and inverse.

Switch reference in intransitive sentences is not problematic.

(4)
a. Aff4-stem3 Aff4-stem4
1SG.SS-sing 1SG.SS-dance
'I sing and dance. '

b. Aff4-stem3 Aff5-stem4
1SG.SS-sing 3SG.DS-dance
'I sing and he dances. '

c. Affix6-stem3 Aff5-stem4
3SG.SS-sing 3SG.DS-dance
'He sings and the other one dances. '

In transitive sentences there are also some rather unproblematic cases.

(5)
a. ∅-stem2 Aff2-stem2
3SG.3SG.DIR.SS-hit 3SG.1SG.INV.SS-hit
'He hits the other one and then he hits me, too. '

b. Aff1-stem1 Aff6-stem1
1SG.3SG.DIR.SS-teach 1SG.2SG.INV.SS-teach
'I teach him and then I teach you. '

c. Aff7-stem2 Aff8-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 3SG.1SG.INV.DS
'He hits you and the other one hits me. '

But what about sentences like those in (6). Are they ungrammatical? Are they normal with the given interpretation?

(6)
a. Aff7-stem2 Aff1-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.SS-hit
'He hits you and he gets beaten up by me. '

b. Aff7-stem2 Aff9-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.DS
'He hits you and he gets beaten up by me. '

c. Aff7-stem2 Aff9-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.DS
'He hits you and the other one gets beaten up by me. '
Edit: Typo
Last edited by Creyeditor on 12 Apr 2015 23:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Squall » 12 Apr 2015 21:33

When a dialect becomes so different from the standard language, the grammar becomes bizarre and it is difficult to figure out the new grammatical rules. Without clear rules, it is difficult to make a consistent conlang that uses rules like those.

This is an example of Portuguese.
I have modified the orthography a little in the examples to make it easier for people that do not know the language.

cê or ocê
The pronoun 'você' (you) became 'cê', but the 'o' returns when 'cê' is used as a suffix.
de + cê = docê
pra + cê = procê
cũ + cê = cocê

Inconsistent imperative
The verb 'olhar' (look at) became 'oiá'. The verb is regular.

The regular imperative 'óia' became 'ó'.
However, in the negative, the imperative is still 'nũ óia'.

Verb + object in the imperative
The verb 'deixá' (from 'deixar')(let) is regular.
'deixa ele' (let him)

When the object is 'eu' (me).
'deixa eu' (let me) became 'xô'
The negative is: 'nũ dei xô' (do not let me)

Dropped syllables
If the consonant of the last syllable of a word is articulated like the consonant of the the first syllable of the next word, the former is dropped.

sapassado - sábado passado (last Saturday)
gosdisso - gosto disso (I like it)
saudadocê - saudade de (o)cê (missing you, nostalgia for you)
tomprocê - toma pra (o)cê (receive it for you)
nossenhora - nossa senhora (our mistress, our holy lady)
mastomate - massa de tomate (tomato mass)
antonte - antes de ontem (before yesterday)
pondeóns - ponto de ónibus (bus stop)

lindemáis - lindo demais (so beautiful)
fassavô - fas favô, faz favor (do me a favor)

quissá - quẽ sabe (who knows)
comé - como é (how is...)

Pauses (double consonants) do not exist in the standard language, for that reason, it is difficult to notice when it happens.
Maybe, 'sapasado' is pronounced /sap:asado/.

New prefixes
Quide- : quilo de (quidecarne = quilo de carne)(kilo(gram) of meat)
Lide- : litro de (lideleite = litro de leite)(liter of milk)
Vide- : vidro de (videleite = vidro de leite)(glass container of milk)
Perde- : perto de (perdecasa = perto de casa)(near the home)
Dende- : dentro de (dendecasa = dentro de casa)(inside the house)

Misc
'posso' and 'pode' (I can, you can, he can) became 'pó'. The first and the second person are not distinguished anymore in this verb.
In a question, it is the first person. In the answer, it is the second person.

Plural
The plural form is lost in the nouns, but it is kept in the determiners.
as coisas -> as coisa (the things)
duas coisas -> duas coisa (two things)
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 12 Apr 2015 22:46

Creyeditor wrote:Okay, I'm gonna try an ad-hoc-lang.
There is a simple saliency hierarchie: 2 human> 1 human > 3 human prox > 3 hum obv
Spoiler:
I'm not gonna invent an actual phonology on this one.
Just some examples:

I would say, that same subject markers are somewhat simpler and more unmarked, so I use them in non-chained verbs, too.

(1)
a. Aff1-stem1
1SG.3SG.DIR.SS-teach
'I teach him. '

b. Aff2-stem1
1SG.3SG.INV.SS-teach
'He teaches me. '

Up to this point, one could also analyze it another way (repeated from above):

(2)
a. Aff1-stem1
1>3-teach
'I teach him. '

b. Aff2-stem1
3>1-teach
'He teaches me. '

The only way to prove some inverse, if I'm not mistaken, is through the absence of some marker of an umarked configuration.

(3)
a. Aff3-stem2
3SG.3SG.INV.SS-hit
'The other one hits him. '

b. ∅-stem2
3SG.3SG.DIR.SS-hit
'He hits the other one.'

So we could group all the affixes in different categories for direct and inverse.

Switch reference in intransitive sentences is not problematic.

(4)
a. Aff4-stem3 Aff4-stem4
1SG.SS-sing 1SG.SS-dance
'I sing and dance. '

b. Aff4-stem3 Aff5-stem4
1SG.SS-sing 3SG.DS-dance
'I sing and he dances. '

c. Affix6-stem3 Aff5-stem4
3SG.SS-sing 3SG.DS-dance
'He sings and the other one dances. '

In transitive sentences there are also some rather unproblematic cases.

(5)
a. ∅-stem2 Aff2-stem2
3SG.3SG.DIR.SS-hit 3SG.1SG.INV.SS-hit
'He hits the other one and then he hits me, too. '

b. Aff1-stem1 Aff6-stem1
1SG.3SG.DIR.SS-teach 1SG.2SG.INV.SS-teach
'I teach him and then I teach you. '

c. Aff7-stem2 Aff8-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 3SG.1SG.INV.DS
'He hits you and the other one hits me. '

But what about sentences like those in (6). Are they ungrammatical? Are they normal with the given interpretation? ARe

(6)
a. Aff7-stem2 Aff1-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.SS-hit
'He hits you and he gets beaten up by me. '

b. Aff7-stem2 Aff9-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.DS
'He hits you and he gets beaten up by me. '
c. Aff7-stem2 Aff9-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.DS
'He hits you and the other one gets beaten up by me. '
Great! Do you still have a question about this, though?

@Squall; are you requesting comment? If so, what type of comment?

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Apr 2015 23:59

eldin raigmore wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:[...]

But what about sentences like those in (6). Are they ungrammatical? Are they normal with the given interpretation?

(6)
a. Aff7-stem2 Aff1-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.SS-hit
'He hits you and he gets beaten up by me. '

b. Aff7-stem2 Aff9-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.DS
'He hits you and he gets beaten up by me. '[/spoiler]

c. Aff7-stem2 Aff9-stem2
3SG.2SG.INV.SS-hit 1SG.3SG.DIR.DS
'He hits you and the other one gets beaten up by me. '
Great! Do you still have a question about this, though? [...]
I think I already stated my questions [D;]
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by J_from_Holland » 13 Apr 2015 20:25

Squall wrote:When a dialect becomes so different from the standard language, the grammar becomes bizarre and it is difficult to figure out the new grammatical rules. Without clear rules, it is difficult to make a consistent conlang that uses rules like those.

This is an example of Portuguese.
I have modified the orthography a little in the examples to make it easier for people that do not know the language.

cê or ocê
The pronoun 'você' (you) became 'cê', but the 'o' returns when 'cê' is used as a suffix.
de + cê = docê
pra + cê = procê
cũ + cê = cocê

Inconsistent imperative
The verb 'olhar' (look at) became 'oiá'. The verb is regular.

The regular imperative 'óia' became 'ó'.
However, in the negative, the imperative is still 'nũ óia'.

Verb + object in the imperative
The verb 'deixá' (from 'deixar')(let) is regular.
'deixa ele' (let him)

When the object is 'eu' (me).
'deixa eu' (let me) became 'xô'
The negative is: 'nũ dei xô' (do not let me)

Dropped syllables
If the consonant of the last syllable of a word is articulated like the consonant of the the first syllable of the next word, the former is dropped.

sapassado - sábado passado (last Saturday)
gosdisso - gosto disso (I like it)
saudadocê - saudade de (o)cê (missing you, nostalgia for you)
tomprocê - toma pra (o)cê (receive it for you)
nossenhora - nossa senhora (our mistress, our holy lady)
mastomate - massa de tomate (tomato mass)
antonte - antes de ontem (before yesterday)
pondeóns - ponto de ónibus (bus stop)

lindemáis - lindo demais (so beautiful)
fassavô - fas favô, faz favor (do me a favor)

quissá - quẽ sabe (who knows)
comé - como é (how is...)

Pauses (double consonants) do not exist in the standard language, for that reason, it is difficult to notice when it happens.
Maybe, 'sapasado' is pronounced /sap:asado/.

New prefixes
Quide- : quilo de (quidecarne = quilo de carne)(kilo(gram) of meat)
Lide- : litro de (lideleite = litro de leite)(liter of milk)
Vide- : vidro de (videleite = vidro de leite)(glass container of milk)
Perde- : perto de (perdecasa = perto de casa)(near the home)
Dende- : dentro de (dendecasa = dentro de casa)(inside the house)

Misc
'posso' and 'pode' (I can, you can, he can) became 'pó'. The first and the second person are not distinguished anymore in this verb.
In a question, it is the first person. In the answer, it is the second person.

Plural
The plural form is lost in the nouns, but it is kept in the determiners.
as coisas -> as coisa (the things)
duas coisas -> duas coisa (two things)
Is this weird dialect actually used by Portuguese people?
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by loglorn » 14 Apr 2015 03:17

J_from_Holland wrote:
Squall wrote:When a dialect becomes so different from the standard language, the grammar becomes bizarre and it is difficult to figure out the new grammatical rules. Without clear rules, it is difficult to make a consistent conlang that uses rules like those.

This is an example of Portuguese.
I have modified the orthography a little in the examples to make it easier for people that do not know the language.

cê or ocê
The pronoun 'você' (you) became 'cê', but the 'o' returns when 'cê' is used as a suffix.
de + cê = docê
pra + cê = procê
cũ + cê = cocê

Inconsistent imperative
The verb 'olhar' (look at) became 'oiá'. The verb is regular.

The regular imperative 'óia' became 'ó'.
However, in the negative, the imperative is still 'nũ óia'.

Verb + object in the imperative
The verb 'deixá' (from 'deixar')(let) is regular.
'deixa ele' (let him)

When the object is 'eu' (me).
'deixa eu' (let me) became 'xô'
The negative is: 'nũ dei xô' (do not let me)

Dropped syllables
If the consonant of the last syllable of a word is articulated like the consonant of the the first syllable of the next word, the former is dropped.

sapassado - sábado passado (last Saturday)
gosdisso - gosto disso (I like it)
saudadocê - saudade de (o)cê (missing you, nostalgia for you)
tomprocê - toma pra (o)cê (receive it for you)
nossenhora - nossa senhora (our mistress, our holy lady)
mastomate - massa de tomate (tomato mass)
antonte - antes de ontem (before yesterday)
pondeóns - ponto de ónibus (bus stop)

lindemáis - lindo demais (so beautiful)
fassavô - fas favô, faz favor (do me a favor)

quissá - quẽ sabe (who knows)
comé - como é (how is...)

Pauses (double consonants) do not exist in the standard language, for that reason, it is difficult to notice when it happens.
Maybe, 'sapasado' is pronounced /sap:asado/.

New prefixes
Quide- : quilo de (quidecarne = quilo de carne)(kilo(gram) of meat)
Lide- : litro de (lideleite = litro de leite)(liter of milk)
Vide- : vidro de (videleite = vidro de leite)(glass container of milk)
Perde- : perto de (perdecasa = perto de casa)(near the home)
Dende- : dentro de (dendecasa = dentro de casa)(inside the house)

Misc
'posso' and 'pode' (I can, you can, he can) became 'pó'. The first and the second person are not distinguished anymore in this verb.
In a question, it is the first person. In the answer, it is the second person.

Plural
The plural form is lost in the nouns, but it is kept in the determiners.
as coisas -> as coisa (the things)
duas coisas -> duas coisa (two things)
Is this weird dialect actually used by Portuguese people?
I do use some of those stuff in my normal careless speech (My idiolect probably characterizes as weird though, i use grammatical innovations while keeping my grandma's vocab) . Most prominently, i drop the plural whenever there is something else (determiner, adj., etc) indicating it, the 'pó' thing above, and some of the weird suffixing stuff 'quide-', 'lide-'. The other changes are normally clear indications of rural dialects.

Squall forgot to mention that the verb person marking is being conflated due to 'você' and 'a gente' conjugating in the third person singular, this seems to be almost 100% widespread among my generation.

It gets you this paradigm:

Code: Select all

    Sing        Plural
1   eu como     a gente come
2   você come   vocês comem
3   ele come    eles comem
Opposed to the classical paradigm:

Code: Select all

    Sing      Plural
1   eu como   nós comemos
2   tu comes  vós comeis
3   ele come  eles comem
In some parts of the paradigm the 1S and the 1P normally merge, getting the paradigm to only 2 distinct forms in that particular TAM (which, if one were to make daughterlangs, could be merged in just one or two SC's). But the verbal stuff still makes more sense than some of the stuff Squall described.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Sumelic » 14 Apr 2015 03:35

loglorn wrote: I do use some of those stuff in my normal careless speech (My idiolect probably characterizes as weird though, i use grammatical innovations while keeping my grandma's vocab) . Most prominently, i drop the plural whenever there is something else (determiner, adj., etc) indicating it, the 'pó' thing above, and some of the weird suffixing stuff 'quide-', 'lide-'. The other changes are normally clear indications of rural dialects.

Squall forgot to mention that the verb person marking is being conflated due to 'você' and 'a gente' conjugating in the third person singular, this seems to be almost 100% widespread among my generation.

It gets you this paradigm:

Code: Select all

    Sing        Plural
1   eu como     a gente come
2   você come   vocês comem
3   ele come    eles comem
Opposed to the classical paradigm:

Code: Select all

    Sing      Plural
1   eu como   nós comemos
2   tu comes  vós comeis
3   ele come  eles comem
In some parts of the paradigm the 1S and the 1P normally merge, getting the paradigm to only 2 distinct forms in that particular TAM (which, if one were to make daughterlangs, could be merged in just one or two SC's). But the verbal stuff still makes more sense than some of the stuff Squall described.
Ha, this reminds me of how French people use on (conjugated with the 3s verb form) nowadays for 1p instead of nous, reducing the number of verb forms... I wonder if there is some relation between this phenomenon occurring in these two Romance languages. Is this variety of Portuguese pro-drop?

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loglorn
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by loglorn » 14 Apr 2015 04:10

Sumelic wrote:
loglorn wrote:*Portuguese Verb stuff*
Ha, this reminds me of how French people use on (conjugated with the 3s verb form) nowadays for 1p instead of nous, reducing the number of verb forms... I wonder if there is some relation between this phenomenon occurring in these two Romance languages. Is this variety of Portuguese pro-drop?
Didn't think that far, but it probably uses more pronouns than European Portuguese and it's full fledged person marking (less than English still, no dummy pronouns for weather and the like). That would require some checking though (take it with mountains of salt).
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 14 Apr 2015 05:55

Creyeditor wrote:I think I already stated my questions [D;]
Yes; I see (now! [:$] ) that you did.
I'm sorry, I'll have to think about it to give a worthwhile (I hope) answer.
I hope I'll have it later.

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