Random ideas: Morphosyntax

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by shimobaatar » 24 Jul 2015 06:20

I'm no expert, but to gloss a language with that kind of morphology, I think I'd personally refer to either Rule 4D or Rule 9 (or maybe Rule 8, depending on the exact details of a system) from this list.

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Adarain
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Adarain » 24 Jul 2015 06:32

Regarding that list of rules, I found a problem to which I cannot find an answer: What do you do if the hyphen is part of the orthography of the language to be glossed? Example (Romansh):

Eu n'ha üna s-charpa-Ø.
1S have.1S INDF.F.SG shoe-SG
I have a shoe.

As you can see, s-charpa has a hyphen. It has absolutely no grammatical meaning, ‹s-ch› stands for /ʃt͡ɕ/, as opposed to ‹sch› /ʃ/, but the gloss implies that s means shoe and charpa stands for singular, and that I clearly forgot something in the gloss.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by shimobaatar » 24 Jul 2015 06:47

Hmm, that's a good question. This isn't a perfect solution, but I usually include at least four lines when I gloss something; in this case:

Eu n'ha üna s-charpa.
eu n'ha üna s-charpa-Ø
1S have.1S INDF.F.SG shoe-SG
I have a shoe.

The first line clarifies that <s-> is part of the orthography.

Another thing is that, unless you're emphasizing the singularity of and/or the fact that the singular is unmarked on "s-charpa", I don't think it's typical to gloss it that way. If you want to emphasize that it's singular and avoid ambiguity, you could gloss it as:

s-charpa
shoe[SG]

Does anyone have any further suggestions?

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Ahzoh » 24 Jul 2015 06:53

shimobaatar wrote:I'm no expert, but to gloss a language with that kind of morphology, I think I'd personally refer to either Rule 4D or Rule 9 (or maybe Rule 8, depending on the exact details of a system) from this list.
so I guess something like...
nu-l-CoCaC
PST-REFL-verb\REFL.ACT.SG
...while...
CuCaC
verb\ACT.PRES.SG
...and...
CuCC-am
ACT.PRES\verb-PL
Last edited by Ahzoh on 24 Jul 2015 07:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by shimobaatar » 24 Jul 2015 07:01

Looks good to me! [:)]

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Ahzoh » 24 Jul 2015 07:04

shimobaatar wrote:Looks good to me! [:)]
It's quite a pain in the ass to do, especially when deciding just what the transfixes are indicating.

Now, back to the question of the possibility of genitive pronouns in reflexive construction like 3ms-GEN PST.REF-verb\REFL.ACT.SG
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by shimobaatar » 24 Jul 2015 07:07

Oh, I thought that'd been resolved an hour or so ago; I'd say that yes, that's fine.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Ahzoh » 24 Jul 2015 07:21

shimobaatar wrote:Oh, I thought that'd been resolved an hour or so ago; I'd say that yes, that's fine.
But, I still don't see how, since the genitive pronoun isn't replacing the reflexive morpheme.

My only way of seeing it is if it deriived from some vague construction like...
shaadik ikloo maanesh
"my self writes"
which leads to the part of the word ikloo being elided to loo and grammaticalized to the verb maanesh.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by loglorn » 24 Jul 2015 14:10

Ahzoh wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:Oh, I thought that'd been resolved an hour or so ago; I'd say that yes, that's fine.
But, I still don't see how, since the genitive pronoun isn't replacing the reflexive morpheme.

My only way of seeing it is if it deriived from some vague construction like...
shaadik ikloo maanesh
"my self writes"
which leads to the part of the word ikloo being elided to loo and grammaticalized to the verb maanesh.
You took my suggestion out of my mouth. Don't see why not.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by ieuan » 28 Jul 2015 16:28

I haven't applied it to a lang yet, but I had the idea of verb phrases containing an evidentiality marker which inflects based on who it applies to - say vik marks direct knowledge, -'a represents 1SG and -'sa represents 2SG, then you have vik'a and vik'sa representing "I know directly that..." and "You know directly that...".

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Jul 2015 02:14

This would be a great reinterpretation of disourse particles [:)]
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 29 Jul 2015 18:50

Creyeditor wrote:This would be a great reinterpretation of disourse particles [:)]
I imagine you meant "discourse".
I think "disourse particles" would be particles that get rid of the bear or bears.
Or maybe particles denoting a bad bear or bad bears.

Random idea;
What about a conlang that actually had disourse [sic] particles?

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by qwed117 » 29 Jul 2015 19:19

eldin raigmore wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:This would be a great reinterpretation of disourse particles [:)]
I imagine you meant "discourse".
I think "disourse particles" would be particles that get rid of the bear or bears.
Or maybe particles denoting a bad bear or bad bears.

Random idea;
What about a conlang that actually had disourse [sic] particles?
dis-"source"- indicating sources
dis-urs(in)e - getting rid of bears.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Jul 2015 22:14

Well, it's getting rid of she-bears (disourse not disours), so it's definitely harder, especially because we're talking about canadian bears. I guess you could try to imitate the only natural enemy of the grizzly she-bear (humans with guns I guess)
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 30 Jul 2015 04:46

qwed117 wrote:dis-"source"- indicating sources
wouldn't that be "di-source" -- two sources?

@Creyeditor; Thanks.
So would "pop" and "bang" be disourse particles?
And are you expecting the conlang to be a Romlang?

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Ahzoh » 30 Jul 2015 04:47

eldin raigmore wrote:
qwed117 wrote:dis-"source"- indicating sources
wouldn't that be "di-source" -- two sources?
no, dis- "asunder, apart, away" + source
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 30 Jul 2015 13:59

eldin raigmore wrote:@Creyeditor; Thanks.
So would "pop" and "bang" be disourse particles?
And are you expecting the conlang to be a Romlang?
Either these or the reduplicated /retriplicated .... forms. Also, it would phonetically maybe something like [pʼʰʷɔ̥p̚]. I guess either that or a roam- or roarlang.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » 30 Jul 2015 23:25

Ahzoh wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
qwed117 wrote:dis-"source"- indicating sources
wouldn't that be "di-source" -- two sources?
no, dis- "asunder, apart, away" + source
No, that would be “dissourse”, not “disourse”.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 31 Jul 2015 13:54

Creyeditor wrote:I guess either that or a roam- or roarlang.

A roarlang? That makes sense.

OTOH if this were spoken by the first humans to try to enter the Americas, they might have done so much sooner than in RealLife.
If it's true that the "short-faced cave bear" held up such a settlement for a long time.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Sights » 03 Aug 2015 08:13

The following are two features of Ba which I had developed independently of each other:

1) Obligatory possession for (most) body parts nouns:

pandiahu
pandia-hu
shoulder-1SG.POSS
"my shoulder"

2) Lots of body parts also function as prepositions:

pandia
"beside"

(Not at the same time, of course. There would be little to no ambiguity as to whether a certain word is a noun like "shoulder" or a preposition like "beside".)

When I first decided to use body part locatives, the fact that body parts nouns were supposed to be obligatorily possessed sort of slipped my mind. I forgot about the subject and went on to develop other parts of the grammar. I recently revisited this and it hit me that I might have inadvertently created a system of conjugated prepositions, like that of Irish.

Atheue pandiahu.
Athé=we pandia-hu
Stand=2SG beside-1SG.POSS
"You stand next to me".

Thoughts? [:)]
Last edited by Sights on 03 Aug 2015 09:28, edited 1 time in total.

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