Random ideas: Morphosyntax

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 2566
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Omzinesý » 14 Apr 2018 10:02

I've been thinking about a Slavonic conlang that marks tense in the perfective aspect by shifting the stress to the prefix.


dél-ju 'I do'

s-del-ju 'I did'
só-del-ju 'I will do'


ćitáju 'I read'

pro-ćitá-ju 'I read'
pró-ćita-ju 'I will read'

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 14 Apr 2018 12:53

Omzinesý wrote:
14 Apr 2018 10:02
I've been thinking about a Slavonic conlang that marks tense in the perfective aspect by shifting the stress to the prefix.


dél-ju 'I do'

s-del-ju 'I did'
só-del-ju 'I will do'


ćitáju 'I read'

pro-ćitá-ju 'I read'
pró-ćita-ju 'I will read'
nice idea
...

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 15 Apr 2018 22:09

Vowel Harmony series:

Tense: /ɑ e i o u ɑ̃/
Lax: /æ ɛ e ɔ o ɛ̃/
Neutral: /ũ ĩ/
...

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 11621
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by shimobaatar » 15 Apr 2018 22:22

Wrong thread, perhaps?

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 15 Apr 2018 22:35

shimobaatar wrote:
15 Apr 2018 22:22
Wrong thread, perhaps?
I think vowel harmony is more a morphosyntax thing...although it also has something to do with phonology...
...

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4590
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 15 Apr 2018 22:47

Can you elaborate on that?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 16 Apr 2018 00:18

Creyeditor wrote:
15 Apr 2018 22:47
Can you elaborate on that?
ok...;-;

well, in the vowel harmony rule, the height or tenseness of the vowel of a suffix must belong to the same group as the stem vowels; however, there are words, like compound words, that may break the rule of vowel harmony, in this case, the vowel of the suffix belong to the same group as the last vowel of the stem.

prefixes don't follow the vowel harmony rule.
...

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4590
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 16 Apr 2018 16:39

That's morphophonology, and it really is part of morphology. You should have mentioned this in the beginning and nobody would have gotten confused [:)]
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 16 Apr 2018 17:58

ok...

another idea: a language with lexical forms and grammatical categories specifically for "pikachu"...e.g. it has the following forms:

- 1st person singular human
- 1st person singular pikachu
- 1st person singular other

- 2nd person singular human
- 2nd person singular pikachu
- 2nd person singular other

- 3nd person singular human
- 3nd person singular pikachu
- 3nd person singular other pokemons
- 3rd person singular non-sentient non-pokemon animates
- 3rd person singular inanimates

and so on.

well, it is just an weird system of grammatical gender that would only be seen in the pokemon world.
...

User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6353
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 17 Apr 2018 07:29

A language with 6 case-endings, 6 prepositions, and 6 postpositions.
Each case-ending can be used with 5 of the prepositions, or with no preposition.
Each case-ending can be used with 5 of the postpositions, or with no postposition.
Each preposition can be used with 5 of the case-endings, or with no case-ending.
Each postposition can be used with 5 of the case-endings, or with no case-ending.
Each preposition can be used with 5 of the postpositions, or with no postposition.
Each postposition can be used with 5 of the prepositions, or with no preposition.

There are 229 grammatical combinations.
1 no case-ending, no preposition, and no postposition.
6 some case-ending, but no adposition.
6 some preposition, but no case-ending and no postposition.
6 some postposition, but no case-ending and no preposition.
30 some case-ending and some preposition, but no postposition.
30 some case-ending and some postposition, but no preposition.
30 some preposition and some postposition, but no case-ending.
120 some case-ending and some preposition and some postposition.

——————————————————————————————————————————

If I make it 5 each of case-endings, prepositions, and postpositions;
and make each of them usable with 4 of each of the others, and usable without one of the others;
I come out with 136 grammatical combinations;
1 + 3*5 + 3*20 + 60.

—————————————————————————————-

This is sort of like what Greek does. Greek has four cases and twelve prepositions, and each of the prepositions can govern (usually) three or (sometimes) two of the cases. And each of the cases can be governed with an average of around 9 of the prepositions.

Thus it can express something between 30 and 35 case-like meanings.

There are also some natlangs with both prepositions and postpositions, such that some of the prepositions can be used with two or more of the postpositions, and some of the postpositions can be used with two or more of the prepositions, resulting in several different semantic meanings.

—————————————————————————————————-

I don’t have anything else about this morphosyntax yet.

But with just 6 case-endings (7 cases, one of which has zero ending) and 12 adpositions it can express more case-like meanings than the Tsez natlang can.

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4590
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 17 Apr 2018 13:50

I really like this idea. It is innovative in a way and takes a step aways from the morpheme based - concatinative - view of meaning. If you use this idea for grammatical cases, you could probably also mark genitive, possessed noun, subjects of intransitive verbs, subjects and objects of transitive verbs, etc, each with their own combination of case preposition and postposition.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6353
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 17 Apr 2018 21:20

Creyeditor wrote:
17 Apr 2018 13:50
I really like this idea. It is innovative in a way and takes a step aways from the morpheme based - concatinative - view of meaning. If you use this idea for grammatical cases, you could probably also mark genitive, possessed noun, subjects of intransitive verbs, subjects and objects of transitive verbs, etc, each with their own combination of case preposition and postposition.
Thanks!
Subject of intransitive verb should probably have no adpositions and no case-ending.

User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6353
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 18 Apr 2018 18:33

BTW it might be easier to actually implement such a system if I used just 4 of “everything” instead of 6.
I could get 1 + 3*4 + 3*(4*3) + 4*3*2 = 73 different case-like meanings, with:
4 case-endings (hence 5 cases, including the one with 0 case-ending),
4 prepositions, and
4 postpositions.

This would still illustrate the full range of possibilities, without tasking me to invent more than 5 cases, nor more than 8 adpositions.

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 28 Apr 2018 04:48

A language with noun cases marked with tonal change of the last syllable.(and yes that language has tones), and the same language has a distinction between animates and inanimates and verbal serialization.
...

User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6353
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 28 Apr 2018 12:57

k1234567890y wrote:
28 Apr 2018 04:48
A language with noun cases marked with tonal change of the last syllable.(and yes that language has tones), and the same language has a distinction between animates and inanimates and verbal serialization.
To me this seems entirely plausible. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that some natlang already does it.
Actually making such a conlang would be a challenge to your creativity, I think.
Are you going to try it?

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 28 Apr 2018 13:10

eldin raigmore wrote:
28 Apr 2018 12:57
k1234567890y wrote:
28 Apr 2018 04:48
A language with noun cases marked with tonal change of the last syllable.(and yes that language has tones), and the same language has a distinction between animates and inanimates and verbal serialization.
To me this seems entirely plausible. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that some natlang already does it.
Actually making such a conlang would be a challenge to your creativity, I think.
Are you going to try it?
I already am doing it...along with a phonology proposed in the random phonology thread. The result language is called Semran.

And yes...it is actually inspired by natlangs...Turkana or Igbo or some other natlangs in Africa does case markings by applying tone patterns.
...

User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6353
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 28 Apr 2018 16:26

k1234567890y wrote:
28 Apr 2018 13:10
I already am doing it...along with a phonology proposed in the random phonology thread. The result language is called Semran.

And yes...it is actually inspired by natlangs...Turkana or Igbo or some other natlangs in Africa does case markings by applying tone patterns.
I looked in WALS.info at the features 31A and 51A.
They have several languages with non-sex-based (I.e. animacy-based) gender in 31A, and several with tone-marked case in 51A, but none with both in their database.
Serial verb constructions is not one of the features in WALS.info.

Turkana and Igbo are both in their database, but they don’t have either feature 31 or 51 recorded for either one.

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 28 Apr 2018 16:28

ok

I guess my memory is wrong, but still I will do them anyways

and now I need to figure out how to make the animacy distinction visible...by differential plural marking? or even a Bantu-like system?

Currently Semran only has animacy distinction in 3rd person pronouns(and actually singular, I have not made the plural pronouns yet)...
...

User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6353
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 28 Apr 2018 19:50

k1234567890y wrote:
28 Apr 2018 16:28
I guess my memory is wrong,
I envy you that this is still an unusual thing for you!
but still I will do them anyways
Go for it!

I think it is a valuable thing to construct languages which have some uncommon-among-natlangs combination of features which are individually not-rare-among-natlangs.
If you can make it work well, great!
If you run into difficulty, you may gain some insight into why that combination is rare in natlangs.

Gender is concordial noun-class. Other words (adjectives, verbs, pronouns, articles, determiners, numerals, etc.) must show agreement with their head-noun’s or antecedent’s or participant’s gender. Technically speaking, the noun itself never has to be marked with its gender; although I gather from the WALS articles that in many languages many nouns are in fact so gender-marked.

When you make some progress, I’d like to read your WIP thread!
Edit: Jamsay, Maasai, Maba, Nandi, and Shilluk, all have case tone, and are all African. WALS.info doesn’t report any non-African languages with case tone.
Of the 28 languages with animacy-based gender they report, several are African and several are from elsewhere than Africa.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 28 Apr 2018 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3011
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 28 Apr 2018 20:52

ok thank you Eldin (: After all, you need to do some trial and errors before finding out what you like the most(under the basic plan you have) or what works sometimes.

Btw, the language with tone cases now has a name: Semran. In the Semran language, numbers are also existential verbs, that is, in Semran, numbers actually mean "there exist one...", "there exist two...". "there exist three", etc. instead of "one", "two", "three", etc.
...

Post Reply