Random ideas: Morphosyntax

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Jun 2018 22:06

A ‘Lang in which the last syllable (or so) of any proper noun is homophonous with the 3rd-person pronoun by which one refers to the proper noun’s referent.

—————

There are a scant handful of webtoon sites (Belfry and TopWebComix and Tapas and others) which I frequently check for “new” (well, they’re new to me) writers, artists, and creators.

Since there are often good reasons to use a pen-name or screen-name; and more of them don’t than do post a self-photo in their introduce-myself posts; and self-portraits, especially drawn or painted, but also sometimes photographs, don’t always make biological sex nor psychosocial gender clear; and many of the artists post pictures of their favorite things instead of themselves; it’s seldom possible to be sure of their psychosocial gender or biological sex from their name or picture, unless someone asks them and they tell us.

On the webernet people seem a lot more open about being trans or non-binary or genderfluid or whatever, anyway.

But during pride month some of the sites especially featured creators who were themselves GLBTQ , or whose characters were.

It turns out many of them share a habit of, right after telling us their pen-name, following up with the 3rd-person pronouns by which they prefer to ”go”.

————

So I thought, “How convenient”!

If the languages’ 3rd-person pronouns have case and gender and number, then maybe so should its proper nouns; and maybe the best way to indicate all that about a proper noun, is to append the appropriate 3rd-person pronoun to it.

Probably this should apply to proper nouns for anything, not just people.

———

Good idea? Bad idea? Interesting idea? Boring idea? Infeasible idea? One you’d like to try out?

———
P.S. Which thread should I have posted this on? Is this the right thread?

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by roninbodhisattva » 27 Jun 2018 06:17

eldin raigmore wrote:
26 Jun 2018 22:06
A ‘Lang in which the last syllable (or so) of any proper noun is homophonous with the 3rd-person pronoun by which one refers to the proper noun’s referent.
A phenomenon similar to this is attested found (rather rarely). See this paper for an analysis of one such system.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 27 Jun 2018 18:57

roninbodhisattva wrote:
27 Jun 2018 06:17
A phenomenon similar to this is attested found (rather rarely). See this paper for an analysis of one such system.
Thanks muchly for the link! I’ve put it on my reading list, at the top!

—————————

So I guess it’s probably at least feasible, huh? If ANADEW?

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 02 Jul 2018 16:37

I thought about a language where for every word, only unexpected category values would be marked. For every category there is only one marker. So, let's say we have 'eyes' which would be a dual form unless marked 'eyes-M' which then would be either singular or plural. This is different for 'stone', which is plural, unless marked 'stone-M'.
The same can be true for case 'person' would be in the ergative case, unless marked 'person-N'. 'thing' on the other hand is accusative, unless marked 'thing-N'. For knife, you might say it is instrumental, unless marked 'knife-N'.
I was also thinking about verbs. Maybe one could even do this with subject agreement?
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 03 Jul 2018 05:39

Creyeditor wrote:
02 Jul 2018 16:37
I thought about a language where for every word, only unexpected category values would be marked. For every category there is only one marker. So, let's say we have 'eyes' which would be a dual form unless marked 'eyes-M' which then would be either singular or plural. This is different for 'stone', which is plural, unless marked 'stone-M'.
The same can be true for case 'person' would be in the ergative case, unless marked 'person-N'. 'thing' on the other hand is accusative, unless marked 'thing-N'. For knife, you might say it is instrumental, unless marked 'knife-N'.
I was also thinking about verbs. Maybe one could even do this with subject agreement?
To me this is reminiscent of viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373&p=57545&hilit= ... ter#p57545 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373&p=246480&hilit ... er#p246480 .

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 03 Jul 2018 12:01

True [:)]
The differences are IINM that non-categories are unmarked in my proposal, in your proposal they are marked. Another thing that I added is the lexical classes. For some nouns, the instrumental case is unmarked, for other nouns the ergative case is unmarked.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 08 Feb 2019 21:35

I had two new ideas, this time about syntax really. I will use pseudo english, because I haven't made up my mind about phonology and lexicon yet.

The first idea is a conlang based on the following premises:
  • 1. Every verb has to be overtly adjacent to its arguments.
    2. All words are either nouns (can be arguments of a verb and answer to a who or what question) or verbs (can form full sentences if all arguments are present).
    (3. Syntax works roughly in a constituent-structure model. Specifiers precede theirs head, complements follow their head.)
There are several things that follow from this.
All nominal modifiers have to be nouns themselves that take a noun phrase as their argument. The verb takes this new complex noun phrase as its argument. This means that simple modifiers precede their noun. It also means that all modifiers -- in general -- are optional.

[VP Shine [NP the sun]]
`The sun shines.'

Adpositions take two arguments. All (or most) prepositions take a noun as their first argument. This means that they precede this noun phrase, because the first argument is the complement. The second argument they take can be a noun, when they modify another noun phrase or a verb if they modify a verb phrase. They will always follow this second argument. Their category has to be that of the second argument, i.e. if adpositions modify verbs, they are verbs themselves and if they modify nouns they are nouns.

[VP [VP Jumped [NP the kitten]] onto [NP the table]]
'The kitten jumped onto the table. '

[VP Jumped [NP the [NP kitten on [NP the table]]]]
'The kitten on the table jumped. '

As can be seen in these two sentences, the difference between the two kinds of adposition does not show with intransitive verbs. With transitive verbs and modified subjects we get a different picture.

[VP [VP [NP the kitten] eat rice] on [NP the table]]
'The kitten eats rice on the table. '

[VP [NP the [NP kitten on [NP the table]]] eat rice]
'The kitten on the table eats rice. '

Possessors and compounds are formed the same way.

[VP [NP doll 's [NP the [NP little girl]]] be [NP broken one]].
'The girl's doll is broken.'

[VPI met [NP a [NP little [NP girl of cottage] ]]]
'I met a little cottage girl'

Similar to adverbial adpositions, other adverbs have to take the whole verb phrase as their argument. In order to yield a full sentences these have to be verbs to. This idea is extended to information that is often marked on verbs, e.g. tense, aspect and mood.

[VP useto [VP [VP sleep I] ly [NP sound one]]]
'I usually sleep soundly.'

[VP haved [VP I lose [NP blanket 's I]]]
'I have lost my blanket.'

I have also thought about voice (passive, antipassive, causative and applicatives), nominalitation, verbalization and clause embedding predicates, but this might be too much for a random idea.
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by eldin raigmore » 25 Feb 2019 20:01

roninbodhisattva wrote:
27 Jun 2018 06:17
eldin raigmore wrote:
26 Jun 2018 22:06
A ‘Lang in which the last syllable (or so) of any proper noun is homophonous with the 3rd-person pronoun by which one refers to the proper noun’s referent.
A phenomenon similar to this is attested found (rather rarely). See this paper for an analysis of one such system.
Thanks! I started reading it, and will finish later.

I realized this post is a duplicate of an earlier post from me, so I tried to delete it;
But I got “you cannot delete posts from this forum”.
Sorry.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Frislander » 07 Mar 2019 14:24

I've just had a bit of a brainwave for a diachronic idea.

The language starts off with a third person form. Later from this is grammaticalised a reflexive pronoun. At a later date these both become cliticised to the verb as post-verbal "object" markers. Later on these both become grammaticalised - the third person as a transitive marker and the reflexive as an intransitive marker. Later on the reflexive if reduced and at the same time both forms are further reorganised such that they end up entirely restricted to derived contexts. The end result is a kind of "voice polarity" situation, with an affix that both derives transitive verbs from intransitives and intransitives from transitives.

E.g.

se "3rd person" > se-re "3rd person reflexive"

me eki se "I see them" > meki-se "I see (them)" (in contrast to meki "I look out") > extended to meata-se "I go to a place"

vs. se aka sere "they hit themselves" > seaka-sere > seaka-se "they hit (themselves)" (the reflexive/antipassive of seaka "they hit "someone")

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 07 Mar 2019 16:50

Frislander wrote:
07 Mar 2019 14:24
I've just had a bit of a brainwave for a diachronic idea.

The language starts off with a third person form. Later from this is grammaticalised a reflexive pronoun. At a later date these both become cliticised to the verb as post-verbal "object" markers. Later on these both become grammaticalised - the third person as a transitive marker and the reflexive as an intransitive marker. Later on the reflexive if reduced and at the same time both forms are further reorganised such that they end up entirely restricted to derived contexts. The end result is a kind of "voice polarity" situation, with an affix that both derives transitive verbs from intransitives and intransitives from transitives.

E.g.

se "3rd person" > se-re "3rd person reflexive"

me eki se "I see them" > meki-se "I see (them)" (in contrast to meki "I look out") > extended to meata-se "I go to a place"

vs. se aka sere "they hit themselves" > seaka-sere > seaka-se "they hit (themselves)" (the reflexive/antipassive of seaka "they hit "someone")
sounds nice (:
...

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 07 Mar 2019 21:03

Frislander wrote:
07 Mar 2019 14:24
I've just had a bit of a brainwave for a diachronic idea.

The language starts off with a third person form. Later from this is grammaticalised a reflexive pronoun. At a later date these both become cliticised to the verb as post-verbal "object" markers. Later on these both become grammaticalised - the third person as a transitive marker and the reflexive as an intransitive marker. Later on the reflexive if reduced and at the same time both forms are further reorganised such that they end up entirely restricted to derived contexts. The end result is a kind of "voice polarity" situation, with an affix that both derives transitive verbs from intransitives and intransitives from transitives.

E.g.

se "3rd person" > se-re "3rd person reflexive"

me eki se "I see them" > meki-se "I see (them)" (in contrast to meki "I look out") > extended to meata-se "I go to a place"

vs. se aka sere "they hit themselves" > seaka-sere > seaka-se "they hit (themselves)" (the reflexive/antipassive of seaka "they hit "someone")
Isn't that similar to merging the intransitivizer and the transitivizer suffix due to phonological reasons?
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by LinguoFranco » 13 Mar 2019 04:59

A language with four existential copulas. There is a distinction between a more permanent or long-term state of being, and a more temporary state. There is a further a distinction between the animate and inanimate versions of those two copulas.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by k1234567890y » 13 Mar 2019 15:42

LinguoFranco wrote:
13 Mar 2019 04:59
A language with four existential copulas. There is a distinction between a more permanent or long-term state of being, and a more temporary state. There is a further a distinction between the animate and inanimate versions of those two copulas.
nice (: I have done this before btw.
...

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 13 Mar 2019 19:16

LinguoFranco wrote:
13 Mar 2019 04:59
A language with four existential copulas. There is a distinction between a more permanent or long-term state of being, and a more temporary state. There is a further a distinction between the animate and inanimate versions of those two copulas.
You could also add a presentative copula à la French "voici".
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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by LinguoFranco » 23 Mar 2019 20:05

Creyeditor wrote:
13 Mar 2019 19:16
LinguoFranco wrote:
13 Mar 2019 04:59
A language with four existential copulas. There is a distinction between a more permanent or long-term state of being, and a more temporary state. There is a further a distinction between the animate and inanimate versions of those two copulas.
You could also add a presentative copula à la French "voici".
Elaborate, please.

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Re: Random ideas: Morphosyntax

Post by Creyeditor » 24 Mar 2019 21:06

Some languages like French and Hausa have a special copula used in presentative contexts. This is when you give or show something to someone and state what this object is, e.g. a waiter hands you cour coka and says "Here is your coke", in these other languages you would just used the presentative copula plus the object, i.e. in this context 'PRESENTATIVE.COPULA coke'.
This is different from an existential copula where you merely state the existence of something and also different from a locative copula, even though you use such a construction in English.
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