(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 18 Sep 2014 20:06

Something similar happens in some Indonesian varieties. The general classifier is "buah" (formerly used for fruits). The numeral one "satu" has a reduced form "se-", which is used before classifiers. Now the classifiers in general disappear, but the combination "sebuah" is sometimes used as an indefinite article.
So, it is the same process, but with a different result. Maybe one could describe it as:

Code: Select all

*satu buah X -> se-buah X -> sebuah X -> sebuah X
one CLF X    -> one-CLF X -> one X    -> INDEF X

@ Ahzoh: Is your biliteral idea supposed to be a historical/diachronic explanation or is it rather an engelang/diachronic thing?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Micamo » 18 Sep 2014 20:46

loglorn wrote:Let's say Chinese 'ge' was generalized for everything (and you don't have a written register to remind you there are other quantifiers)

As its used for essentially everything, it gets bleached of any semantics it had (if any) and becomes part of the numbers, so that when counting to 10 one would go:

yige, erge, sange... and so on. (sound change would then come in and make things less obvious)
Oh, I think I understand what you mean now. What you mean is the counting word is reanalyzed as a suffix on the numeral; That's perfectly plausible, and this can even happen without the counter system getting simplified, by the way. (e.g. Salishan languages)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 18 Sep 2014 23:01

Micamo wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I could, but I don't know what a "desert cassowary" would look like, surely physiologically different.
Probably much like a smaller ostrich.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=des ... &FORM=IGRE
also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassowary

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 19 Sep 2014 15:29

Micamo wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Could cassowaries live in Vrkhazh if the southernmos of Vrkhazh contains a more tropical environment? I dunno what cultural value cassowaries could be, aside from being food.
No, I will derive q-r-ḏ "to quarter a cassowary" from q-r. Whatever q-r means.
A cassowary is a flightless bird native to New Guinea and northern Australia. In addition to using them as a food source, many new guinea cultures revere cassowaries with religious value. One group (can't find the exact name of them right now) believes in the existence of a spirit world where animals live that are linked to specific people; Men are linked to pigs, and women are linked to cassowaries. They believe you can inflict harm on this other person from afar by harming their counterpart in this spirit world, like a voodoo doll.
and another group believes humans and cassowaries are siblings, and the cassowary is therefore the only animal that - if killed - the cassowary-killer has to undergo the same process that people-killers go through.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » 19 Sep 2014 15:36

As a child, I found cassowaries to be the most frightening animals imaginable, what with their bony crests and dreadful claws. I couldn't sleep because I had visions of them breaking through the walls of my bedroom to come and impale me with their claws. [:'(]

This discussion just reminded me of that.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 19 Sep 2014 15:59

DesEsseintes wrote:As a child, I found cassowaries to be the most frightening animals imaginable, what with their bony crests and dreadful claws. I couldn't sleep because I had visions of them breaking through the walls of my bedroom to come and impale me with their claws. [:'(]

This discussion just reminded me of that.
Good, marinade in the suffering [}:D]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 19 Sep 2014 16:30

I always though cassowaries were cute [O.o]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » 19 Sep 2014 16:48

loglorn wrote:I always though cassowaries were cute [O.o]
[O.o] They're the stuff of nightmares!

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 19 Sep 2014 17:05

DesEsseintes wrote:
loglorn wrote:I always though cassowaries were cute [O.o]
[O.o] They're the stuff of nightmares!
Just like Puffins!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 19 Sep 2014 17:44

Ahzoh wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:
loglorn wrote:I always though cassowaries were cute [O.o]
[O.o] They're the stuff of nightmares!
Just like Puffins!
That's some cool material for conculture myths.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by wintiver » 19 Sep 2014 22:56

In my current work, Warau I've come to an impasse in my verbal morphology where I'm unsure if I'm inflecting too many categories and if it's likely that these morphological distinctions would have cropped up without any sort of person marking on the verbs. Below are the distinctions made in the verbs.

Example verb: vas: walk

Polarity
The infix used for polarity is 〈ij〉which can be affixed before or after the conjugation of other grammatical qualities.

Aspect
  • Imperfect (citation form): vas : {∅}
  • Perfect: vatas :〈Vt〉
  • Repetitive: vasas : -VC reduplication (if the syllable ends in a vowel a dummy /n/ is inserted after)
  • Customary: vehtasti : 〈eht〉-t(i)
  • Habitual: vehtas : 〈eht〉
  • Circuitive: pavasna : pa- -na
  • Perambulative: voyas :〈oy〉
  • Durative: veglas : 〈egl〉
  • Persistive: vaŋas :〈aŋ〉
Evidentiality
  • Reliable Visual Evidence: vasnha : -(a)nha (Not sure how to handle first person activities. Is there a necessity to inflect for this if it's a first person act, like "I'm walking?")
  • (Less/Un)reliable Visual Evidence: vaslha : -(i)lha
  • Non-Visual Evidence: vaswhadi : -whadi
  • Deductive: vask : -k
  • Reliable Hearsay (Reportative/Quotative?): vasač : -ač/-ča
  • (Less/Un)reliable Hearsay (Hearsay?): vasifi : -(i)fi
  • General Knowledge: vas : {∅}
Modality
  • Indicative: vas {∅}
  • Conditional: uvuas : u- 〈u〉
  • Imperative: ivasi : i- -i
  • Potential: vasiva : -iCV
  • Desiderative: vassa : -C:a (if the syllable ends in a vowel a dummy /n:/ is inserted after)
  • Trepidative: ovaska : o- -ka
Random Examples of Combining Forms
  • Negative Perambulative Deductive: vijoyask
  • Perambulative Negative Deductive: voyijask
  • Circuitive Reportative Trepidative: panovaskačana
  • Trepidative Reportative Circuitive: opavasnačaka
  • Reportative Circuitive Trepidative: panovaskanača
  • Customary Desiderative Non-Visual Evidence: vehtaswhadinnati
& so forth...

Granted all these forms don't cooccur with all other forms (though many of the combinations are possible just not common).

Is this degree of morphology reasonable?

Is this plethora of morphology reasonable without personal affixes? Because Warau was going to lack them altogether.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 19 Sep 2014 23:25

Does the place where the negative morpheme pops out matter anything, or are the forms identical in meaning?
(e.g. vijoyask and voyijask)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Micamo » 19 Sep 2014 23:39

wintiver wrote:(Not sure how to handle first person activities. Is there a necessity to inflect for this if it's a first person act, like "I'm walking?")
Languages actually differ on this point: Some languages handle "evidential of inner experience" with a visual evidential, others with a nonvisual evidential, and some languages have a special "1st-person" evidential for this purpose.
Is this degree of morphology reasonable?
Degree, sure. But this collection feels... a little kitchen-sinky to me. The aspects especially; Is it really necessary to distinguish "habitual" and "customary" aspects? Or circuitive and perambulative? Or durative and persistive?
Is this plethora of morphology reasonable without personal affixes? Because Warau was going to lack them altogether.
If you're asking "Is it possible to have highly complex verb morphology without personal affixes?" The answer is yes. Haida and Piraha are good examples.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by wintiver » 19 Sep 2014 23:41

loglorn wrote:Does the place where the negative morpheme pops out matter anything, or are the forms identical in meaning?
(e.g. vijoyask and voyijask)
Oh yeah, absolutely. I should have explained a bit on that. I showed the two different forms to show the scope. For instance:

Negative Perambulative Deductive: vijoyask
Perambulative Negative Deductive: voyijask

Have slightly different meanings.
Here /vijoyask/ means: "It's deduced that I/you/he/she/it didn't walk around" or something like that.
And /voyijask/ means: "It's deduced that I meandered about/were lost/aimless but I wasn't walking".

Those are lengthy and could be cut shorter and parsed a bit better I'm sure but ostensibly the scope of influence of the affixes depends on their placement. The first one's down are more central to the meaning. I'm going to have to change the Evidentials to separate words I think. I'm going to make them their own class of function word in Warau. That ought to lighten the load.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by wintiver » 19 Sep 2014 23:52

Micamo wrote:Languages actually differ on this point: Some languages handle "evidential of inner experience" with a visual evidential, others with a nonvisual evidential, and some languages have a special "1st-person" evidential for this purpose.
Interesting. I'm thinking of tweaking this a bit.
Micamo wrote:Degree, sure. But this collection feels... a little kitchen-sinky to me. The aspects especially; Is it really necessary to distinguish "habitual" and "customary" aspects? Or circuitive and perambulative? Or durative and persistive?
I borrowed heavily from Koyukon motion verbs and activity verbs here. I did neglect to mention these only apply to verbs of motion and action. But even so I'm throwing out the Customary one actually (which is a soft habitual anyway). I sometimes make inflectional morphology where derivational would do. This is probably the case. That being said, I'm in love with the notion of a Perambulative aspect being at my disposal. I want to be able to succinctly say "Xing/ed all over the place". But I appreciate the candor. I'll get rid of persistive too, though something in me wants desperately to keep it.

Circuitive I find to be pretty cool though...

...but... yeah, I'll cut it. I'm only able to think of a handful of examples where it's actually useful. Shit.
Micamo wrote:If you're asking "Is it possible to have highly complex verb morphology without personal affixes?" The answer is yes. Haida and Piraha are good examples.
Excellent. I want to have a fairly compact verb structure. But I'll do some trimming.

Thus far I'm thinking:

Polarity: Obviously having a positive and negative form.
Aspects:
  • Imperfect
  • Perfect
  • Habitual
  • Perambulative
Evidentials are maintained but are now constitute a word class so no affixing. This will also allow me to do syntactic tricks to mess about a bit.

Modality:
  • Indicative
  • Conditional
  • Imperative
  • Desiderative
  • Trepidative
Perhaps the Desiderative and Trepidative are less and less common in everyday speech?

That's some decent house cleaning.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 20 Sep 2014 00:38

What exactly is a Trepidative?
A quick google search gave me nothing on the matter
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by wintiver » 20 Sep 2014 01:32

loglorn wrote:What exactly is a Trepidative?
A quick google search gave me nothing on the matter
It's a term I coined from "trepidation", it's like a negative desiderative. It indicates the speaker fears the action happened or fears it will or perhaps desires it not to (generally, at least in my language's case with an emphasis on it's suspected possibility or probability - like dreading something that's inevitable: death, taxes, Thanksgiving etc etc)

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Avjunza » 20 Sep 2014 04:48

wintiver wrote:
loglorn wrote:What exactly is a Trepidative?
A quick google search gave me nothing on the matter
It's a term I coined from "trepidation", it's like a negative desiderative. It indicates the speaker fears the action happened or fears it will or perhaps desires it not to (generally, at least in my language's case with an emphasis on it's suspected possibility or probability - like dreading something that's inevitable: death, taxes, Thanksgiving etc etc)

So, an Aversive mood?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 20 Sep 2014 06:00

Is it all right if I analyzed /ɨ/ as [ɪ]?
Otherwise I might just plain delete it, to be honest my only reason for keeping is for romanization reasons and I'm too lazy to make all the changes to my words.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lao Kou » 20 Sep 2014 06:13

Avjunza wrote:
wintiver wrote:
loglorn wrote:What exactly is a Trepidative?
It's a term I coined from "trepidation", it's like a negative desiderative# It indicates the speaker fears the action happened or fears it will or perhaps desires it not to (generally, at least in my language's case with an emphasis on it's suspected possibility or probability - like dreading something that's inevitable: death, taxes, Thanksgiving etc etc)
So, an Aversive mood?
Sounds like it covers the area of "lest" in English and SAE analogues, which in English and the romlangs ("de crainte que", e.g.), at least, inspires subjunctive-y things to happen, so it makes sense that it would fall under modality. Kewl.
wintiver wrote:I'll get rid of persistive too, though something in me wants desperately to keep it.

Circuitive I find to be pretty cool though...but... yeah, I'll cut it. I'm only able to think of a handful of examples where it's actually useful. Shit.
If you're feeling a nagging sense of desperation and begrudging pangs of "Shit. [:S] " over these, I don't see a reason to completely lay them waste. Perhaps the circuitive is no longer productive, if it ever was, and the handful of examples that are still knocking around are still knocking around because, as you said, they're actually useful. Or perhaps they become suppletive forms for something else. Or perhaps some of these things ossify into contemporary adverbs, adpositions, adfixes, or set expressions...

You've trimmed the sinkiness, if that's your worry, but/and you still have reminders to make you smile and remember the good times. [:)]
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