(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 13 Nov 2015 16:50

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
clawgrip wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Ich sehe das nicht so an.
何か説明書いてくれる?それだけじゃ何が言いたいか分からない。

I'm having some fun of course, but still.
Well, Google Translate translates what you said as

Something manual stomach go Re that ? Its been but only Flip ~Ya minute from gastric or stomach what had word .

So I'm not sure how to respond to that.
And that's a remarkably bad Google Translate. She said:

'Could you explain what you wrote? I don't know what you meant by just that.'

Or something along these lines.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 13 Nov 2015 17:44

loglorn wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
clawgrip wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Ich sehe das nicht so an.
何か説明書いてくれる?それだけじゃ何が言いたいか分からない。

I'm having some fun of course, but still.
Well, Google Translate translates what you said as

Something manual stomach go Re that ? Its been but only Flip ~Ya minute from gastric or stomach what had word .

So I'm not sure how to respond to that.
And that's a remarkably bad Google Translate. She said:

'Could you explain what you wrote? I don't know what you meant by just that.'

Or something along these lines.
I said - I do not see it that way. Ansehen = to see. It has a prefix that appears seperately from the word. The prefixes that seperate from the words are quite important, and if you don't think so, say „Ich nehme sie dahin“ instead of „Ich nehme sie dahin mit“ and see how people react.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 13 Nov 2015 18:17

Clawgrip didn't say those particle weren't important, he said they weren't prefixes, which clearly they're not when they are neither pre- nor -fixed.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 13 Nov 2015 18:32

OK I guess.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 14 Nov 2015 01:17

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Something manual stomach go Re that ? Its been but only Flip ~Ya minute from gastric or stomach what had word .
This is exceptionally bizarre. Are you sure this didn't get garbled or something as you cut and pasted? I can't fathom how that interpretation would come up. When I run it through Google, I get "Can you write explaining what? What just it does not know what I want to say." Which is weird and half nonsensical, but at least is clearly based on what I wrote.

Loglorn thanks, but actually I am a he.

Salmoneus thanks, your explanation is very clear, and something I hadn't thought about.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 14 Nov 2015 02:35

clawgrip wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Something manual stomach go Re that ? Its been but only Flip ~Ya minute from gastric or stomach what had word .
This is exceptionally bizarre. Are you sure this didn't get garbled or something as you cut and pasted? I can't fathom how that interpretation would come up. When I run it through Google, I get "Can you write explaining what? What just it does not know what I want to say." Which is weird and half nonsensical, but at least is clearly based on what I wrote.

Loglorn thanks, but actually I am a he.

Salmoneus thanks, your explanation is very clear, and something I hadn't thought about.
For weird, unknown and unexplainable reasons, i though you were a she.

And i'm glad my translation was good enough. I understood what you meant but conveying it properly in English was harder than i thought.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 14 Nov 2015 22:50

loglorn wrote:And i'm glad my translation was good enough. I understood what you meant but conveying it properly in English was harder than i thought.
It's so annoying when that happens. [}:(]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Odkidstr » 15 Nov 2015 21:03

So, as I'm working on deriving one language, I decided I'd like to have another language that the original can borrow words from before all the sound changes take place, and potentially driving some of the sound changes. Basically, I'm looking to make a quick conlang that has an interesting vocabulary and can help drive sound change in my target language through borrowing.

Here's what I've come up with:
Spoiler:
Consonants:
p b t d k ʔ
m n
r
f v θ ð s z ʃ x h
ʋ ɹ j w
ʧ k͡s ɧ

Vowels:
i ɛ a o u ĩ ã ũ

Allophony/Phonotactics

s~ʃ x~h
Affricates (including ɧ) are not allowed word finally.
ɛ o are not allowed word finally.
s > ʃ & x > h before another consonant. Other F + x were allowed, but became /h/ following other F and then disappeared.
ʃx used to be a permitted consonant cluster, but has become ɧ instead.
θ not allowed before another consonant.
Stressed vowels are allophonically long.
Nasalized vowels appeared because of lost nasals in their coda.

The above rules supersede the below rules.

CV(C)
FXV(C)
YNV(C)

C = Any consonant
V = Any vowel
F = f v ð z ʃ h
X = ɹ j w
Y = f v ð ʃ h ʧ k͡s
N = m n

Other Stuff

VSO (so is the target language that I'm creating this one for)

za- Definite prefix
wa - Nominative particle
ni - Accusative particle
to - Dative particle
ki - Genitive particle

ʃ- & sa (the former a prefix attaching to words beginning in ɹjwmn) - Perfective
ðos - Progressive
xohwa - Habitual
biv - Inceptive
uʔa - Perfect

Vocabulary
rida - Man
zɹa - Animal
ʃmu - Woman
fjupfmot - Farm
fɹin - Cat
ðnitu - Play
vjɛk - Fiddle
tɛbfmipuk - River
ʃji - Sit
fɹik - Eat
dufnib - Fruit
bũpafjã - Book
tutdat - Pretty/Beautiful
da - by

Example Sentences:

sa fṙik wa zarida ni dufnib
PERF eat NOM DEF-man ACC fruit
The man ate a fruit

thos ŝji wa zaŝmu da zatebfmipuk
PROG sit NOM DEF-woman by DEF-river
The woman was sitting by the river

sa thnitu wa zafṙin ni zavjek

PERF play NOM DEF-cat ACC DEF-fiddle
The cat played the fiddle
So, what do you all think of it so far? I'm not too concerned about the grammar, it can be rather boring, but it still has to be done somewhat. I will be making derivational affixes and stuff.

Anyways, what things are important in a conlang like this that I haven't done, and is there anything I can do to improve it? I'd like for it to be fairly naturalistic.

Disclaimer: I literally came up with this yesterday, and words were generated using a word generator, so I may change them up. But they work for now (and I like them, so I might end up keeping them). I might also decide on Ergative-Absolutive, but I'm not sure. Would Absolutive tend to be the unmarked case, or Ergative?

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, is there any way to do small caps on this forum?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Plusquamperfekt » 16 Nov 2015 18:40

Hey people, can you help me to learn how to pronounce implosives?

OK, what I know is that stops or plosives have basically three phases... One in which you form the closure in your mouth and, the moment when you release the stop and the time between the release of the stop and the onset of voice (if the next sound is a voiced consonant or a vowel)...

Now, this is me pronouncing [ba], [da] and [ga]: http://vocaroo.com/i/s099zvZP90od

When I try to pronounce the syllables while inhaling air instead of exhaling, I get this:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0ochu3z7hE0 [ɓa↓]? [ɗa↓]? [ɠa↓]? (I don't know if this is the correct transcription=

However, this does not sound good at all. Rather like throat cancer than like human speech...

So I drew the conclusion that vowels in languages such as Vietnamese can only be egressive, which would mean that the airstream changes the direction from ingressive to egressive as soon as the implosive stop is released. I don't know if my assumption is correct or not, but this is my second try to pronounce implosive consonants correctly without "inhaling" the vowels too:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s133Cr800zNN

However, this sounds rather like someone with a hick up to me and I think that even though I inserted some undefinable ingressive elements between the syllables (I don't know if you can classify that weird hick-up tone as a consonants), I think my stops are still completely egressive in the last recording.

Do you have any advice what I should do next? I have never had difficulties with pronouncing ejectives or clicks or even pharyngeal consonants, but those implosives get me :mrgreen:

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 16 Nov 2015 20:44

Implosives are not inhaling only [;)] It's more similar to glottalized [bʔ], but kind of nothing like [ b ] actually. The important thing is your glottis. Can you do ejectives? For ejectives you move your glottis up high, while stopping the airflow in the mouth somewhere, which creates an enormous amount of pressure that is suddenly released.
For implosives on the other hand you lower your glottis, while stopping the airflow somewhere in the mouth. Because there is the same amount of air in a larger cavity now, you create a very low pressure, a depression. If you now release the stop, at the place of articulation where you stopped the air before, the low pressure causes you to inhale air. So you should not try to inhale air at the first place, but to lower your glottis right before releasing the stop.

tl;dr: Don't try to inhale air. Lower your glottis, that will make you inhale air.
In your second recording you really inhale a lot of air. In your third recording, you sound like your somehow disrupting the air flow, I can't judge from the recording what exactly your doing.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 16 Nov 2015 22:23

Implosives are not the same thing as ingressive speech. Ingressive speech is pulmonic and is done in Icelandic and several other languages, and in some North Germanic languages inhaling air has become a synonym for "ja", and of course there's the "ayup" of Maine. It's not phonemic though. Implosives are not pulmonic at all, and they are phonemic in any language with them I can think of.

OK, is there anything wrong with this?

Pronouns:

Thu - Thuji
Thi - Thiji
Thos - Thosi

Adjectives:

Sjennu - Sjennuji
Sjenni - Sjenniji
Sjennos - Sjennosi

Then, sound changes:

Thu - Thü
Thi - Thi
Thos - Thös

Sjönn - Sjönnü
Sjinn - Shinni
Sjenns - Sjennös

However, merging the masculine pronouns doesn't seem like it'd be very stable, so instead you have

The - Thi

by analogy with nouns that have the forms e - i. I'm also just guessing the secondary stresses in the three-syllable declined verbs would have secondary stresses on the first syllable of the string of affixes, but no secondary stress when they are only two syllables. Maybe I should make it strictly trochaic, but there's also compound words and such to violate that. I kind of just want to leave the endings on the adjectives, and have this:

Sjönnu - Sjönnü
Sjinne - Sjinni
Sjennos - Sjennös

but I don't think the sound changes would permit that and I see no way to rework anything so that that would happen except add more syllables. The initial forms would have to basically have an ending just to say that something is an adjective, and that would cause more umlaut things. There could be something like this:

Sjennewu - Sjennewuji
Sjenneji - Sjennejiji
Sjennewos - Sjennewosi

Sjennu - Sjennü
Sjenni - Sjenni
Sjennos - Sjennös

then of course analogy for the masculine ones, so:

Sjennu - Sjennü
Sjenne - Sjenni
Sjennos - Sjennös

Does the analogy thing seem OK, and does making an ending for turning verbs into adjectives that's an echo vowel seem OK? Every adjective is derived from a verb, but they act like nouns as soon as they're adjectives, so I guess adjectives are noun-verbs. And yes, I'm aware that these are about as bad as wulfanainjanaz or whatever - wolf (accusative) in PG. I'm not even sure this would allow adjectives to develop considering how short relative clauses are (why say sjennewuji "the silent one" when you can say sjennrije "the one who is silent"?). Also, I could replace the semivowels with glottal stops in the historical forms, mostly the important thing is that no syllable starts with a vowel since that's not permitted.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 17 Nov 2015 11:04

HoskhMatriarch wrote:OK, is there anything wrong with this?
not a thing wrong
However, merging the masculine pronouns doesn't seem like it'd be very stable, so instead you have
"stability" is only an issue over the long-term (if it even is then)...people in pre-medieval Kent and London didn't worry "Oh Lord, save us from our pronouns collapsing into homonyms that only barbaric barbarian loans can replace!"
:D
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 17 Nov 2015 20:15

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:OK, is there anything wrong with this?
not a thing wrong
However, merging the masculine pronouns doesn't seem like it'd be very stable, so instead you have
"stability" is only an issue over the long-term (if it even is then)...people in pre-medieval Kent and London didn't worry "Oh Lord, save us from our pronouns collapsing into homonyms that only barbaric barbarian loans can replace!"
:D
OK, but I still don't like how they only way to make adjectives work was to make them all 4 syllables in the old form of the language. Who is going to use a 4 syllable adjective when they can just use a relative clause (although, many of the relative clauses would also have to be four syllables or more and the one I posted is actually not grammatical now that I look back on it. Now it just seems very unlikely that all these four and more syllable words would be everywhere).

So I should just leave the masculine nominative and accusative forms as the same instead of doing the analogy thing? It just seems very unlikely that neuter would have seperate nominative and accusative forms and masculine wouldn't.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 17 Nov 2015 21:40

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:OK, is there anything wrong with this?
not a thing wrong
However, merging the masculine pronouns doesn't seem like it'd be very stable, so instead you have
"stability" is only an issue over the long-term (if it even is then)...people in pre-medieval Kent and London didn't worry "Oh Lord, save us from our pronouns collapsing into homonyms that only barbaric barbarian loans can replace!"
:D
OK, but I still don't like how they only way to make adjectives work was to make them all 4 syllables in the old form of the language. Who is going to use a 4 syllable adjective
*raises hand*

and people carving official declarations, people wanting to impress their friends/loved ones/loyalists with what they know, poets and saga-writers, and many more.
when they can just use a relative clause (although, many of the relative clauses would also have to be four syllables or more
why would they "have to be" that?
and the one I posted is actually not grammatical now that I look back on it. Now it just seems very unlikely that all these four and more syllable words would be everywhere).
then try writing it; if you do, you'll find other ways.
So I should just leave the masculine nominative and accusative forms as the same instead of doing the analogy thing? It just seems very unlikely that neuter would have seperate nominative and accusative forms and masculine wouldn't.
why is that unlikely? I've seen natlangs where one gender gets subdivisions that the other genders don't, so you better not claim its unattested.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Aleks » 17 Nov 2015 22:13

Is it weird to have articles with a diminutive? Will do some examples.

Sa avase suna ai - I love her a little.
1sg Love 3f-Acu IndefArt-dim (Bad gloss)
[sa av.a.se su.na aɪ]

Dŭs baŗul - The little/small trees.
DefArt-Dim PL.Tree
[dɯs bam.rul]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 17 Nov 2015 22:16

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:OK, is there anything wrong with this?
not a thing wrong
However, merging the masculine pronouns doesn't seem like it'd be very stable, so instead you have
"stability" is only an issue over the long-term (if it even is then)...people in pre-medieval Kent and London didn't worry "Oh Lord, save us from our pronouns collapsing into homonyms that only barbaric barbarian loans can replace!"
:D
OK, but I still don't like how they only way to make adjectives work was to make them all 4 syllables in the old form of the language. Who is going to use a 4 syllable adjective
*raises hand*

and people carving official declarations, people wanting to impress their friends/loved ones/loyalists with what they know, poets and saga-writers, and many more.
when they can just use a relative clause (although, many of the relative clauses would also have to be four syllables or more
why would they "have to be" that?
and the one I posted is actually not grammatical now that I look back on it. Now it just seems very unlikely that all these four and more syllable words would be everywhere).
then try writing it; if you do, you'll find other ways.
So I should just leave the masculine nominative and accusative forms as the same instead of doing the analogy thing? It just seems very unlikely that neuter would have seperate nominative and accusative forms and masculine wouldn't.
why is that unlikely? I've seen natlangs where one gender gets subdivisions that the other genders don't, so you better not claim its unattested.
Well, the problem here is that all of the adjectives would be three or more syllables in Old Hoskh or whatever I call this stage of the language. The adjective root sjenn is one syllable, yet to put it in a useable form, you have to have at least three syllables like for sjennewu and sjenneji. Mostly I just added the echo vowel -e to stop the adjective endings from being deleted later on, plus, it can be seen as a sort of derivational process to derive nouns (well, adjectival nouns) from verbs, as opposed to the zero-derivation without. But, it does seem this block is the most reasonable in terms of derivation:

Sjönn - Sjönnü
Sjinn - Shinni
Sjenns - Sjennös

That block doesn't really have strictly trochaic stress in the historical forms though. It puts secondary stress on the gender endings when the accusative endings are added. Otherwise, the second column would all end in -i. Mostly I'm just trying to figure out how to do case umlaut. I got it to work on regular nouns.

Yes, but usually it's the less animate genders that have fewer distinctions, like neuter or inanimate will not have a seperate nominative and accusative while animate or masculine and feminine do.
Aleks wrote:Is it weird to have articles with a diminutive? Will do some examples.

Sa avase suna ai - I love her a little.
1sg Love 3f-Acu IndefArt-dim (Bad gloss)
[sa av.a.se su.na aɪ]

Dŭs baŗul - The little/small trees.
DefArt-Dim PL.Tree
[dɯs bam.rul]
Not if you have a diminutive gender like Bantu, otherwise yes.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 17 Nov 2015 23:48

Aleks wrote:Is it weird to have articles with a diminutive? Will do some examples.

Sa avase suna ai - I love her a little.
1sg Love 3f-Acu IndefArt-dim (Bad gloss)
[sa av.a.se su.na aɪ]

Dŭs baŗul - The little/small trees.
DefArt-Dim PL.Tree
[dɯs bam.rul]
Portuguese and i think Spanish too do that regularly. So no.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 17 Nov 2015 23:56

Aleks wrote:Is it weird to have articles with a diminutive? Will do some examples.

Sa avase suna ai - I love her a little.
1sg Love 3f-Acu IndefArt-dim (Bad gloss)
[sa av.a.se su.na aɪ]

Dŭs baŗul - The little/small trees.
DefArt-Dim PL.Tree
[dɯs bam.rul]
IMHO, it looks as if the diminutive is actually a clitic, since it does not attach to its semantic host, but to some other position. I might also be wrong about this, idk.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 18 Nov 2015 00:52

Aleks wrote:Is it weird to have articles with a diminutive? Will do some examples.

Sa avase suna ai - I love her a little.
1sg Love 3f-Acu IndefArt-dim (Bad gloss)
[sa av.a.se su.na aɪ]

Dŭs baŗul - The little/small trees.
DefArt-Dim PL.Tree
[dɯs bam.rul]
I like both the look and feel of this. so not terribly weird. a bit comforting, imho.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 18 Nov 2015 00:56

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Well, the problem here is that all of the adjectives would be three or more syllables in Old Hoskh or whatever I call this stage of the language.
i still don't see a problem.
Sjönn - Sjönnü
Sjinn - Shinni
Sjenns - Sjennös

That block doesn't really have strictly trochaic stress in the historical forms though. It puts secondary stress on the gender endings when the accusative endings are added. Otherwise, the second column would all end in -i. Mostly I'm just trying to figure out how to do case umlaut. I got it to work on regular nouns.
try verb phrases (VP) or noun phrases (NP), build around the Sjennos-related words.
Yes, but usually it's the less animate genders that have fewer distinctions, like neuter or inanimate will not have a seperate nominative and accusative while animate or masculine and feminine do.
then stop making a conlang and just study a natlang - will that make you happy? because i'm not sure conlanging is giving you anything other than indigestion right now.

we're answering the questions you ask, and you keep getting unhappier and unhappier the more we do.
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