(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Avo » 11 Feb 2016 01:20

I'd really like to help you out, but I feel at loss here, and I'm clearly not the only one. You seem to have an overall picture of how you want your conlang to be. Just create that language then. Stop being so damn insecure about it just because someone on the internet said something about it. If you can't you probably shouldn't aim for Ithkuil 2.0 or whatever because that will inevitably lead to frustration.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » 11 Feb 2016 01:37

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Well, there's some people on Reddit trying to tell me how to make my language, not here, sorry.
Ah, I see -- I've never been to Reddit, so haven't seen what's going on over there.
I think I'm going to have to not listen to people on Reddit and just use it to showcase things once I get them working. I had someone trying to completely change the phonology of the language because they just didn't like the /pf/ affricate, I had someone tell me to get rid of case marking if I'm going to have verb agreement (there are plenty languages with both, and even if there weren't, why do you assume I'd rather have polypersonal agreement than cases if I had to choose?), I've had someone tell me to get rid of the aspirated affricates and only have plain ones... It's just been annoying.
I agree with you on that -- that kind of thing ìs annoying! The only thing I'll ever tèll you to do is to make the language you hear in your head and tell all those micromanagers over on Reddit to go pound sand.
Well, I mean making my language wrong for my design goals, not that you can objectively make a language wrong.
I see. Is it possible there is some overplanning going on? Not so much a language that has too much in it, but that there is simply too much planning about each and every whiddling little thing?
Spanish has fused polypersonal agreement that has the gender of the subject and object in one affix now? That sounds cool but I don't remember that from my Spanish classes.
Come to think on it, I think I'm remembering wrong -- it's direct and indirect object marking in one affix. But in any event, if you like it, do it! It's your language and you get to decide!
Avo wrote:I'd really like to help you out, but I feel at loss here, and I'm clearly not the only one. You seem to have an overall picture of how you want your conlang to be. Just create that language then. Stop being so damn insecure about it just because someone on the internet said something about it. If you can't you probably shouldn't aim for Ithkuil 2.0 or whatever because that will inevitably lead to frustration.
[+1]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 11 Feb 2016 01:43

loglorn wrote:Seems i'm a default allophone type of guy.
Ditto.

I'd rather explain the most common realization accurately than represent the vowel space it's in conveniently.
Image

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gach » 11 Feb 2016 01:48

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Spanish has fused polypersonal agreement that has the gender of the subject and object in one affix now? That sounds cool but I don't remember that from my Spanish classes.
It doesn't, though the verb endings are still very fusional.

What you are asking is essentially the fusion of subject and object agreement affixes. The categories of person and number are anyway overwhelmingly encoded in indivisible morphemes across the world and the fusion of (3rd person) gender and number is common as well. The thing you mostly have to worry about is that a full fusion of all these categories will give you a large table of affixes. It might be difficult for the language to simultaneously achieve a state of full fusion in these categories and still keep all the agreement affixes distinct. An easier state for the language to achieve (a state where it's more likely to end up and spend a longer time) might be one of the following:
  • The language has developed a whole lot of fusion between the S and O agreement affixes, but in some cases the original affixes are still unfused. This might be likely especially if you have a lot of genders that all have to be marked consistently for both the S and the O argument.
  • The language has achieved a state of full fusion between the S and O affixes but in the process has failed to keep all of them distinct. The collapse of some of the distinctions is dealt by adding additional morphology on the verb. This might mean either the grammaticalisation of new affixes or the use of free pronouns for disambiguation.
  • The language might also simply live with the fact that not all distinctions can be made simultaneously with the fused affixes. This is a thing that languages commonly do across the world. It's also quite likely that there's some structure in which category distinctions the language has omitted. It might, for example, not show the number of the arguments whose gender is marked, or gender might not be marked for both of the arguments, at least not simultaneously. The rational in such a system would be to concentrate on making distinctions where they matter the most for the information flow.
ImageKištaLkal sikSeic

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 11 Feb 2016 03:16

loglorn wrote:What if the vowel space was divided something like this:

Image
Wouldn't /i ə ɒ/ be more accurate?
While that isn't precisely what I was thinking... that is intriguing.

This was more what I had in mind:
Image

(Which I suppose is basically your standard vertical system... I'm just going out of my way to specify different qualities.... maybe I should use loglorn's far more interesting one instead! I guess that begs the question: what the heck would condition such a system as that?)
Image

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 11 Feb 2016 04:40

elemtilas wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Someone said that having a suffix that marks the person, number, and gender of the subject and object isn't naturalistic. I think it is naturalistic though. I'm pretty sure I've found languages that do exactly that, and even if there aren't, who says it couldn't happen? I'm getting annoyed of people telling me how to make my language, but I don't want to make my language wrong either so I can't just not listen to anyone.
I am not aware of anyone here telling you how to make your conlang.
I suspect that may be me: I keep asking HoskhM. to make samples.
Also, there is no wrong way to make a conlang. Some conlangs may be more or less aesthetic, more or less elegant, more or less artfully done, more or less naive, more or less mature in concept and execution -- but there are no "wrong" ones.
[+1]
You've clearly got a vision for your world and your conlangs -- that's great! You've clearly got a desire to do a good job at it -- that too is great! You have a strong desire to ask questions -- and that too is great!
exactly! and it doesn't have to be perfect. maybe one day it will be - but it won't be perfect at its birth when you start writing it down, no matter how much you prep and ask.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 11 Feb 2016 04:46

Avo wrote:I'd really like to help you out, but I feel at loss here, and I'm clearly not the only one.
*nods* And just when things seem to be improving, Reddit or somesuchwhere makes you think that everybody hates your conlang. (has Reddit seen more of it than we have?)
You seem to have an overall picture of how you want your conlang to be.
...which is good.
Just create that language then.
[+1] this.
Stop being so damn insecure about it just because someone on the internet said something about it.
*nods*

*insert the classic "someone on the Internet is wrong" cartoon*
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Well, there's some people on Reddit trying to tell me how to make my language, not here, sorry.
perhaps say "You guys have been helpful, but there's someone on Reddit telling me that XYZ in Hoskh. is wrong - are they right?" maybe?
I think I'm going to have to not listen to people on Reddit and just use it to showcase things once I get them working.
that sounds good; or just don't post on Reddit.
Spanish has fused polypersonal agreement that has the gender of the subject and object in one affix now? That sounds cool but I don't remember that from my Spanish classes.
I took classes in Latin and German...and they didn't cover everything those languages have to offer, either.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by alynnidalar » 11 Feb 2016 20:22

Hoskh, are you talking about this post? I don't read people's responses as telling you that you CAN'T do X or Y... I read it as them suggesting that if you're having difficulty doing X or Y, you don't necessarily have to do X or Y.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Jackk » 11 Feb 2016 23:34

Working a bit on my future British English conlang, specifically an intermediate (say 23rd century-ish) stage, and I was sorting out what happens to consonants + /l r/ in onsets.
I have the /r/ sound shifting to a labiodental approximant, and at this point all that's happened it the bare stops is something like /p t k b d g/ - > /p͡ɸ t͡s k͡x b̥ d̥ g̥/. I'm also having /tr dr/ - > /t͡ʃr d͡ʒr/.

I don't know what else to do with the clusters, though. My thoughts are going somewhat in the direction of [pʰɻ tʰɻ kʰɻ > pʰɻ͡ʋ tʰɻ͡ʋ kʰɻ͡ʋ >p͡ɸʋ t͡ʃʋ k͡xʋ ( > pʋ̥ t͡ʃʋ̥ kʋ̥) ], but I don't know what to do with a voiceless labiodental approximant.

For reference, here's a sentence from Modern English to my conlang through this intermedaite stage:

He's going to let us take any food we need.

dē gnı lesūgrap eni fȳt wo sūgowaf.
[d̥ɛː‿gnə lezuːgʋap ɛne fyːt wɔ suːgɔwaf]
they're gonna let us all grab food what us all gotta have

(The awkward morpheme here being grap take.)

And tentatively:
tainle-rugvap endaswei wossugaun.
/ˈtainˌleruˈkʋap enˈtaswei ˈwosːuˌkaun/
[ænˌdˡeruˈgʋap ɛnˈdaswɛj ˌwosuˈgɑn]
ta-in-le su-kvap en-taswei wos-su-gaf-n
3s-FUT-let 1p-take any-food REL-1p-need-IPFV
they're-gonna-let us.all-grab any-stuff.to.eat what.it.is-us.all-gotta.have-ing


Any suggestions? In the possible future right above, I just left /gʋ/ as is, but this doesn't fell like the best solution.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sumelic » 12 Feb 2016 00:08

If /r/ shifts to a labiodental approximant, it seems plausible to me that /l/ might shift to /ɾ/ in syllable onsets. This often occurred in Portuguese, for example.

Talking about what /kʋ/ and the like might shift to: I'm not sure either, sorry.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 12 Feb 2016 15:03

I want to make a SE Asian areal conlang just as an excuse to have a totally awesome and nightmarish SE Asian script. But I don't know enough about the languages or the history of the area to do it plausibly. What to do!

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Feb 2016 16:37

Resources:
http://sealang.net/library/
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~ctjh ... n.2005.pdfPDF
Maybe there is something in herePDF

And maybe you should also read up on specific languages in that area and maybe also scripts [;)]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 12 Feb 2016 16:50

Thanks. Scripts are the one area I've got covered.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 12 Feb 2016 22:41

clawgrip wrote:I want to make a SE Asian areal conlang just as an excuse to have a totally awesome and nightmarish SE Asian script. But I don't know enough about the languages or the history of the area to do it plausibly. What to do!
maybe make a Naming Language with things that are what you think of when you hear "SE Asian languages"...and steer/course correct from there.
(it worked for Kamakawi, right?)
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 13 Feb 2016 02:16

I have a very basic knowledge of Khmer and I know a few bits and pieces of what's going on in that region. Guess I will have to look some stuff up. The thing that makes those scripts so crazy is that they have a lot of historical baggage. The languages have evolved and the scripts are completely unsuitable to begin with, so there's a lot of crazy modification. I don't have the necessary linguistic knowledge to evolve a new language from a historical form, so it might be better to make an a priori one that's just heavily influenced by the surrounding languages. I will have to think about it.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 13 Feb 2016 06:47

I want to make it related to the languages there...So I have to decide between Tai-Kadai and Mon-Khmer. Might go with Mon-Khmer, but I guess I should see which proto-language is more well-documented.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 13 Feb 2016 14:44

clawgrip wrote:I want to make it related to the languages there...So I have to decide between Tai-Kadai and Mon-Khmer. Might go with Mon-Khmer, but I guess I should see which proto-language is more well-documented.
To add to your options: there's also Chamic, which is a branch of Austronesian spoken in Vietnam and Cambodia (as well as Aceh and China), and influenced by Austroasiatic. There's lots of info available on Austronesian diachronics and lexicon, althouth I don't know how much you can find specifically about Chamic. Then again, you could have any other Austronesian branch make a home for itself in MSEA. [You could also have a Hmong-Mien language spoken in the region. Iirc real HM speakers in the region are relatively recent migrants, but since they come from right next door it's not implausible to imagine a branch spoken natively in MSEA]


Jarai: Abih bang mơnuih-mơnam tơkeng rai rơngai laih anŭn mơdơ̆-mơđơr amăng tơlơi pơpŭ-pơyôm hăng tơlơi dưi. Ƀing gơñu tŭ hơmâo tơlơi pơmĭn hăng tơlơi thâo djơ̆-glaĭ laih anŭn brơi ngă kơ tơdruă amăng tơlơi khăp ayŏng adơi.

Cham: Pô Lingik b̶ôh brŭk hadah năn siam. Pô nưh hadah tabiăk truh di sup, jưng hu tŭk hadah thŏng tŭk sup. Pô Lingik pangăn hadah năn hray tha.


There are also the Moken languages of coastal Thailand and Burma, which are from a different Austronesian branch but have reportedly also been heavily influenced by Austroasiatic. However, I can't find a sample of those and I think it would be harder to research them (for one thing, they have no written tradition of their own).

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » 14 Feb 2016 03:45

clawgrip wrote:I want to make a SE Asian areal conlang just as an excuse to have a totally awesome and nightmarish SE Asian script.
[O.O]
Image

CAN NOT WAIT 4 KAIJUKANA (certainly not the appropriate name for a SE Asian script, but I'm totes on board)

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 14 Feb 2016 05:38

Salmoneous, thanks for the tips. I am thinking I might go with Mon-Khmer though.

Lambuzhao, I've already started designing the script, even though I have nothing done for the language yet. That's the beauty of SE Asian scripts...the phonology of the language is relatively unimportant in the design of the bulk of the script.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by opipik » 14 Feb 2016 21:17

Salmoneus wrote:Jarai: Abih bang mơnuih-mơnam tơkeng rai rơngai laih anŭn mơdơ̆-mơđơr amăng tơlơi pơpŭ-pơyôm hăng tơlơi dưi. Ƀing gơñu tŭ hơmâo tơlơi pơmĭn hăng tơlơi thâo djơ̆-glaĭ laih anŭn brơi ngă kơ tơdruă amăng tơlơi khăp ayŏng adơi.

Cham: Pô Lingik b̶ôh brŭk hadah năn siam. Pô nưh hadah tabiăk truh di sup, jưng hu tŭk hadah thŏng tŭk sup. Pô Lingik pangăn hadah năn hray tha.
Chru: Pơnuaĭ c̆ơmơrờp Pơnuaĭ Brơhởu Brơhang Siam Yêsu-Krist, Anà Pô Lơngi. Ngă yởu hu wă lăm Bôn Bơ-ar Ya Ê-sai, Mnih Đơm Dơlhởu: Ni Dơlhă pơdăr Tơdi-Tơdai Dơlhă năo găh ană sơ-ăi, N̄u tra ngă pơsiam jơlan Sơ-ăi; Nởn săp mnih kơmrău lăm tơdrởn c̆uăh: Ngă pơ-siam jơlan Yang Prŏng. Ngă rĭng-gơŭ du jơlan Pô. Ya Yôhan, Mnih ngă ƀa-tem mrăi lăm tơdrởn c̆uăh, n̄u pơto pơnuaĭ ƀa-tem brởi arang sơnửng-luởi-pơnuaĭ sŭng tò hu pơnuaĭ anĭt-luởi pơnuaĭ sŭng.

Rade: see here

Moken(the sample is probably really old): Twŭn dēlōōē m'baw kä m'mĕn Thēdä, päkä käni chē, päkä bēnī chē, ĕnōng chē nŭ.

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