(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 06 Jun 2016 18:43

Does anyone have any recordings of languages with a consonant contrast that gets described as something like "tenseness" that's not just gemination? I think Swiss German is just gemination but Korean (which should be easy to find), some Caucasian languages, and some Australian languages appear to have legitimately obscure contrasts.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 06 Jun 2016 20:22

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Does anyone have any recordings of languages with a consonant contrast that gets described as something like "tenseness" that's not just gemination? I think Swiss German is just gemination but Korean (which should be easy to find), some Caucasian languages, and some Australian languages appear to have legitimately obscure contrasts.
I don't have any recordings on Korean, but Ruben van der Vivjer did some work on the contrast and he is basically claiming, that it once was a three way VOT contrast and that it is now a VOT and pitch contrast, IIUC. Although this is acoustic work and not articulatory I think it's really interesting.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sights » 06 Jun 2016 22:10

So... I devised a weight sensitive stress system for Bha. However, I know pretty much nothing about the interaction of such systems and morphemes.

For instance, let's say a have a noun, utho [ˈuthɤ̞] (back, as in the body part). My current system dictates this word is stressed on the penultimate syllable. A possessive suffix -ħin [ʔin] can be added, making the word uthoħin, which under the system would shift the stress to the last syllable because it's closed. This seems strange to me however; I'd guess stress is usually confined to content words or whatever, but I really don't know and making this an absolute rule seems a bit unnaturalistic.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by MrKrov » 06 Jun 2016 22:42

It's absolutely fine for stress to be blind to morphological boundaries.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 07 Jun 2016 00:15

There are some conflicting strategies in the worlds languages. One is to have stress at the edge of a word. Another is to have stress on the stem/root of a word. Yet another is to stress heavy syllables. As you probably already noticed these tendencies can come into conflict. Languages have different solutions to this. Some languages forget about stressing the root, other forget about stressing the edges. Some language have some kind of compromise, such as Mapundungun, which sometimes stresses the last syllable of a word and sometimes the first syllable of the stem.
All in all, I would say, you're stress system is perfectly natural.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 07 Jun 2016 00:21

Yes, stress can go anywhere. I heard Turkish stresses the last syllable of a word, and it's a language with a bunch of suffixes. I know Latin stresses the penultimate even with suffixes.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 07 Jun 2016 00:54

Creyeditor wrote:There are some conflicting strategies in the worlds languages. One is to have stress at the edge of a word. Another is to have stress on the stem/root of a word. Yet another is to stress heavy syllables. As you probably already noticed these tendencies can come into conflict. Languages have different solutions to this. Some languages forget about stressing the root, other forget about stressing the edges. Some language have some kind of compromise, such as Mapundungun, which sometimes stresses the last syllable of a word and sometimes the first syllable of the stem.
All in all, I would say, you're stress system is perfectly natural.
There's also a conlang over on the ZBB (or there might be... pruning) which has a stress system based on a native Central/South American language (I think it might have been one of Nort's conlangs). Basically, different morphemes can carry different kinds of stress, but also affect the type of stress carried by different morphemes as the entire word is built up.

Either way, as others have said, stress moving from one morpheme to another is perfectly fine. Proto-Indo-European, for example, assuming an accurate reconstruction, has some words that shift stress from the first syllable to the last, e.g. *ǵʰéyōm > *ǵʰimés, with stress being lost from *ǵʰé, skipping -yōm- entirely and landing on the genitive -és, followed by ablauty goodness.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 07 Jun 2016 01:38

Don't forget that even English has suffixes that can pull stress right off the root morpheme, e.g.:

tráin → trainée
éngine → enginéer
Japán → Japanése
légion → legionnáire

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 07 Jun 2016 03:22

clawgrip wrote:Don't forget that even English has suffixes that can pull stress right off the root morpheme, e.g.:

tráin → trainée
éngine → enginéer
Japán → Japanése
légion → legionnáire
And even some that push!
confíde → cónfident (→ confidéntial)
(but confíde → confidánt)
aspíre → áspirant

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sights » 07 Jun 2016 17:21

Thanks everyone. I think I'll ignore morpheme boundaries then [:D]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by TwistedOne151 » 08 Jun 2016 21:43

Given a language with contrasting velar and uvular stops and fricatives, which of these sound changes of the fricatives /x χ/ are plausible:
1. chain shift: χ > h, x > χ
2. x > h with χ unaffected?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 08 Jun 2016 22:20

Given a language with contrasting velar and uvular stops and fricatives, which of these sound changes of the fricatives /x χ/ are plausible:
1. chain shift: χ > h, x > χ
2. x > h with χ unaffected?

This depends on your assumptions. If you assume that [h] is a glottal fricative and changing something into [h] is backing, the second shift is less plausible, because the velar could go through a uvular stage, which would make it impossible for only former velars to become glottal, if sound changes are agnostic about etymology.

x > χ > h
*χ > χ > χ

If we assume that /h/ has no place features at all, because there is no supraglottal friction and glottal friction is also present in other sounds, both 1. and 2. are plausible. In 1. /χ/ would lose its place features and /x/ would go from velar to uvular. In 2. only /x/ would lose its place features, while /χ/ is unaffected.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 09 Jun 2016 03:37

If we assume that /h/ has no place features at all, because there is no supraglottal friction and glottal friction is also present in other sounds, both 1. and 2. are plausible. In 1. /χ/ would lose its place features and /x/ would go from velar to uvular. In 2. only /x/ would lose its place features, while /χ/ is unaffected.
Can we assume that?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 09 Jun 2016 11:16

loglorn wrote:
If we assume that /h/ has no place features at all, because there is no supraglottal friction and glottal friction is also present in other sounds, both 1. and 2. are plausible. In 1. /χ/ would lose its place features and /x/ would go from velar to uvular. In 2. only /x/ would lose its place features, while /χ/ is unaffected.
Can we assume that?
Many phonological feature theories do.
Also Wikipedia mentions it:
Wikipedia wrote:All consonants except for the glottals, and all vowels, have an individual place of articulation in addition to the state of the glottis.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » 10 Jun 2016 01:05

Creyeditor wrote:
loglorn wrote:
If we assume that /h/ has no place features at all, because there is no supraglottal friction and glottal friction is also present in other sounds, both 1. and 2. are plausible. In 1. /χ/ would lose its place features and /x/ would go from velar to uvular. In 2. only /x/ would lose its place features, while /χ/ is unaffected.
Can we assume that?
Many phonological feature theories do.
Also Wikipedia mentions it:
Wikipedia wrote:All consonants except for the glottals, and all vowels, have an individual place of articulation in addition to the state of the glottis.
That's very interesting. I'll keep that in mind next time i'm concocting sound changes.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 10 Jun 2016 02:01

loglorn wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
loglorn wrote:
If we assume that /h/ has no place features at all, because there is no supraglottal friction and glottal friction is also present in other sounds, both 1. and 2. are plausible. In 1. /χ/ would lose its place features and /x/ would go from velar to uvular. In 2. only /x/ would lose its place features, while /χ/ is unaffected.
Can we assume that?
Many phonological feature theories do.
Also Wikipedia mentions it:
Wikipedia wrote:All consonants except for the glottals, and all vowels, have an individual place of articulation in addition to the state of the glottis.
That's very interesting. I'll keep that in mind next time i'm concocting sound changes.
If you want some inspiration, I can really recommend thisPDF big phonological chart [:)]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » 10 Jun 2016 10:28

So I'm thinking about the reverse of debuccalisation, i.e. /ʔ/ fronting to /k/ or /t/, most likely as an unreleased stop [k̚ t̚], at least in the initial stage.

First of all, does anyone remember natlangs where glottal stops "buccalised"?

Second, is this a plausible sound change? Have others used it?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 10 Jun 2016 11:44

DesEsseintes wrote:So I'm thinking about the reverse of debuccalisation, i.e. /ʔ/ fronting to /k/ or /t/, most likely as an unreleased stop [k̚ t̚], at least in the initial stage.

First of all, does anyone remember natlangs where glottal stops "buccalised"?

Second, is this a plausible sound change? Have others used it?
Okay, so in some Indonesian dialects [ʔ] and [k] alternate, where [ʔ] occurs roughly at the end of a syllable and [k] roughly at the beginning of a syllable. Since synchronically this alternation has no real direction on the surface, one could say, that /ʔ/ is "buccalized" to [k] at the beginnig of a syllable.
I think it is plausible if it happens in the right context. I would actually say, that this is a kind of fortition, that could happen in prominent positions, like a syllable onset (see above).
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by MrKrov » 10 Jun 2016 12:25

I'm sure the buccalisation didn't happen in Indonesian and isn't supporting evidence and hence the exact opposite of what was asked for.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 10 Jun 2016 12:35

As I said, buccalization is a possible analysis of a synchronic phonological process in Indonesian. It was not an answer to the question "First of all, does anyone remember natlangs where glottal stops "buccalised"?", it was a more a piece of evidence for the second question: "is this a plausible sound change?"
I am not claiming that there was a diachronic process in Indonesian where glottal stops buccalized.
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