(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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clawgrip
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 23 Aug 2016 13:39

Where did you see this? I found a single red link on Wikipedia to an "accidental aspect" but obviously, red Wikipedia links
are not especially trustworthy sources. As you rightly point out, volition has nothing to do with aspect, which is all about time structure. The closest you can get is a language that merges aspect and volition into a single conjugation, like an accidental perfect. It wouldn't be unusual for a language to have a way of describing mistakes that have just been made (Japanese has something very similar to this, in fact). But you can be sure that this is a mixture of aspect and volition.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Chagen » 23 Aug 2016 23:07

I should mention that Kirroŋa's Reciprocal aspect is a little weird. Besides the expected meaning of "do X to each other", it also is used when the subject does an action for another that benefits them as well (or at least when the speaker views the action that way), almost like the Indo-European middle voice. In addition, it can be used as an ad-hoc way of saying "together": ner pallanawomi "we cleared it together, yat witiwomi "they are working together".
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 24 Aug 2016 04:53

Himmaswa has two types of reciprocal as well: the standard one, and a resultative one that shows a result occurs specifically because people acted together. Similar, but not exactly beneficial.

However, I can't see how this is an aspect, because it has nothing to do with time structure. Even in your two examples, the English translations use two different aspects (simple and progressive). As Imralu says, it is a voice, because it describes how the participants of a verb relate to the action of the verb and to each other. Obviously you recognize this, because you've compared it to the middle voice.

The only way it could be an aspect is if morphologically it patterns with aspect morphemes, so for example, if the reciprocal morpheme appears it is placed on the slot for aspects, and when it's there, the language is no longer able to employ any aspect morphemes in that phrase.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by J_from_Holland » 25 Aug 2016 17:32

A simple question, but the answers are probably worthful to keep in mind when I'm making my own: of which things should a good conlang video course consist? Videos about words, grammar and conversations? Translations? Texts? Anything else?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 25 Aug 2016 23:07

J_from_Holland wrote:A simple question, but the answers are probably worthful to keep in mind when I'm making my own: of which things should a good conlang video course consist? Videos about words, grammar and conversations? Translations? Texts?
yes to all.
(probably not one video for each...unless the videos are sufficiently long enough to show how to put words together into a conversation)
Anything else?
wildlife/nature field guides, maybe...this is the wing, this is the beak, these are the talons, etc. this is a hawk, this is an aardvark, this is a sloth, this is a marmot, etc.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Aug 2016 00:43

OTʜᴇB wrote:2: Inceptive is the start of a static action such as "The flowers started to bloom" where Inchoative is the start of a progressive action such as "He started running".
Why is "bloom" static but "run" is progressive? Couldn't they be equally progressive? (or equally static?)
Flowers aren't unopened buds one minute and fully-opened flowers the next; it takes them time to bloom, and the progress is visible.
Some rivers run all year; they never visibly start and they never visibly stop. For them, running is a state.
Does your conlang just arbitrarily assign verbs (that aren't clearly semantically static or clearly semantically progressive) as either (grammatically) "static" or (grammatically) "progressive", or something like that? That would be fine if it did.

[hr][/hr]
J_from_Holland wrote:A simple question, but the answers are probably worthful to keep in mind when I'm making my own: of which things should a good conlang video course consist? Videos about words, grammar and conversations? Translations? Texts? Anything else?
Keep in mind some schools' insistence that courses about French should be conducted entirely in French, or courses in Spanish should be conducted entirely in Spanish, or mutatis mutandis ceteris parabus German, Japanese, Mandarin, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.

Do your entire video only in a conlang, and see what success you get. If nothing else has already done so, that will show you and everybody else what a ridiculous idea that is.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 26 Aug 2016 02:09

OTʜᴇB took these things from the Wikipedia page, but got them backwards and described them slightly improperly. "to bloom" is a state change (not a so-called "static action"), while "to run" is an action. Inchoative marks the beginning of a change of state, while inceptive marks the beginning of an action. "to bloom" is a change of state because the flower is fundamentally different after blooming, while "to run" is an action, because the man is fundamentally the same after running. Most if not all languages I assume would mark these with the same conjugation and call it inchoative.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by J_from_Holland » 26 Aug 2016 13:33

eldin raigmore wrote: Keep in mind some schools' insistence that courses about French should be conducted entirely in French, or courses in Spanish should be conducted entirely in Spanish, or mutatis mutandis ceteris parabus German, Japanese, Mandarin, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.

Do your entire video only in a conlang, and see what success you get. If nothing else has already done so, that will show you and everybody else what a ridiculous idea that is.
I could do an entire video in my conlang, but I don't think grammar explanation should be in my conlang as well. Or I should subtitle everything... (I've already big parts of some older videos where I explain things in my conlang - subtitled of course. It's for people interesting to hear it, but for explanations it's not really useful as they then constantly have to read subtitles).
On my school, French or German courses are absolutely not entirely in French or German. Actually the opposite. During many lessons we don't even speak French or German :o ... In the Netherlands, where I live, 50% of your final exam consists of reading and only a very small part of speaking. So you can actually pass your German exam without being able to speak German... [O.O] that's not a good thing in my opinion.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Aug 2016 15:31

J_from_Holland wrote:I could do an entire video in my conlang, but I don't think grammar explanation should be in my conlang as well. Or I should subtitle everything... (I've already big parts of some older videos where I explain things in my conlang - subtitled of course. It's for people interesting to hear it, but for explanations it's not really useful as they then constantly have to read subtitles).

I guess I should have used some "sarcasm points" or "irony smilies" or whatever in my post.
Or maybe not; maybe you did, in fact, get that I don't recommend doing a second-language course entirely in that language.

Of course, in serio, I recommend you do the bulk of the video in the L1 of your target audience. (It might be a good idea to also have versions done in a few other languages; maybe just one if you know only two fluently, maybe more if you're fluent in more.)

But IMO it should be easy enough to have each segment of the course include having the viewer construct at least one word or phrase or clause or sentence in some conlang.

J_from_Holland wrote:On my school, French or German courses are absolutely not entirely in French or German. Actually the opposite.
IMO that's probably good.
J_from_Holland wrote:During many lessons we don't even speak French or German :o

IMO that's probably bad. Maybe some few lessons need to involve very little speaking of the language taught, but I don't think "many" should involve none at all.
J_from_Holland wrote:... In the Netherlands, where I live, 50% of your final exam consists of reading and only a very small part of speaking. So you can actually pass your German exam without being able to speak German... [O.O] that's not a good thing in my opinion.
I agree with you; that doesn't sound good, that sounds bad.

I took "Scientific and Technical Reading German" and "Scientific and Technical Reading Russian"; the point of the course was to get us to be able to read academic papers in German (or Russian). The classes did also involve listening to, and speaking, and writing in, the subject languages; but one could pass the course without being able to do any of those, provided one could read the language well.

But if I had taken "Conversational German" or "Conversational Russian", I'd expect to be taught how to understand spoken German or Russian, and how to speak understandable German or Russian. I'd expect the course (and its exam) to be something like 40% understanding, 30% speaking, 20% reading, and 10% writing; so one could get a B+ without being able to write in the language, and one could get a (barely) passing D- without being able to read it either, but one couldn't pass without being able to understand spoken German or Russian, and one couldn't get better than a barely-passing D- without being able to speak it also.


[hr][/hr]

clawgrip wrote:OTʜᴇB took these things from the Wikipedia page, but got them backwards and described them slightly improperly. "to bloom" is a state change (not a so-called "static action"), while "to run" is an action. Inchoative marks the beginning of a change of state, while inceptive marks the beginning of an action. "to bloom" is a change of state because the flower is fundamentally different after blooming, while "to run" is an action, because the man is fundamentally the same after running. Most if not all languages I assume would mark these with the same conjugation and call it inchoative.
Thank you; that's easier to understand.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 27 Aug 2016 05:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by J_from_Holland » 26 Aug 2016 16:26

eldin raigmore wrote: I guess I should have used some "sarcasm points" or "irony smilies" or whatever in my post.
Or maybe not; maybe you did, in fact, get that I don't recommend doing a second-language course entirely in that language.

Of course, in serio, I recommend you do the bulk of the video in the L1 of your target audience. (It might be a good idea to also have versions done in a few other languages; maybe just one if you know only two fluently, maybe more if you're fluent in more.)

But IMO it should be easy enough to have each segment of the course include having the viewer construct at least one word or phrase or clause or sentence in some conlang.
But what's better? Should I be talking English or talking Bløjhvåtterskyll with English subtitles during a grammar explanation?

edit: quoted post als @eldin raigmore doesn't work on this forum
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » 26 Aug 2016 17:04

J_from_Holland wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote: Keep in mind some schools' insistence that courses about French should be conducted entirely in French, or courses in Spanish should be conducted entirely in Spanish, or mutatis mutandis ceteris parabus German, Japanese, Mandarin, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.

Do your entire video only in a conlang, and see what success you get. If nothing else has already done so, that will show you and everybody else what a ridiculous idea that is.
I could do an entire video in my conlang, but I don't think grammar explanation should be in my conlang as well. Or I should subtitle everything... (I've already big parts of some older videos where I explain things in my conlang - subtitled of course. It's for people interesting to hear it, but for explanations it's not really useful as they then constantly have to read subtitles).
On my school, French or German courses are absolutely not entirely in French or German. Actually the opposite. During many lessons we don't even speak French or German :o ... In the Netherlands, where I live, 50% of your final exam consists of reading and only a very small part of speaking. So you can actually pass your German exam without being able to speak German... [O.O] that's not a good thing in my opinion.
Same here: the speaking assessments we had to do involved memorising a text of about 5 paragraphs and repeating it as answers to some structured questions presented by the teacher, with a surprise question at the end which nobody really said much to.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 27 Aug 2016 05:12

J_from_Holland wrote:But what's better? Should I be talking English or talking Bløjhvåtterskyll with English subtitles during a grammar explanation?
I recommend discussing your conlang(s) in a natlang metalanguage, and working your examples in a conlang object-language.
But that's just me. I could be wrong.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by J_from_Holland » 27 Aug 2016 12:12

eldin raigmore wrote:
J_from_Holland wrote:But what's better? Should I be talking English or talking Bløjhvåtterskyll with English subtitles during a grammar explanation?
I recommend discussing your conlang(s) in a natlang metalanguage, and working your examples in a conlang object-language.
But that's just me. I could be wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFUyAa ... fUw/videos
^^^ This is my channel. Most of my recent videos are in English (then it's easier to explain things and to make jokes, as I don't want a boring course), but there will be upcoming videos entirely in Bløjhvåtterskyll with subtitles.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nachtuil » 29 Aug 2016 18:48

I am working with a vowel system with the following monophthongs: i y ɛ u a ɔ
I want the following diphthongs for sure: ɔi and ɛi
I want to make one with a and either i and y. Would ai be distinct enough from ɛi in a language with so few diphthongs? Does anyone know a language that has ay?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by J_from_Holland » 29 Aug 2016 20:13

Nachtuil wrote:I am working with a vowel system with the following monophthongs: i y ɛ u a ɔ
I want the following diphthongs for sure: ɔi and ɛi
I want to make one with a and either i and y. Would ai be distinct enough from ɛi in a language with so few diphthongs? Does anyone know a language that has ay?
Bløjhvåtterskyll - my conlang - has /ɔi/, /ɛi/ and /ɑi/. So I guess it's possible.
eldin raigmore wrote: Do your entire video only in a conlang, and see what success you get. If nothing else has already done so, that will show you and everybody else what a ridiculous idea that is.
Well, here is a video where I'm talking in my conlang... Up to you to rate the amount of ridiculousness.
A little history of Bløjhvåtterskyll in Bløjhvåtterskyll
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:nld: :mrgreen: | :eng: [:D] | :deu: [:)] | :fra: [:P] | :ell: [:$]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 29 Aug 2016 20:24

Nachtuil wrote:Would ai be distinct enough from ɛi in a language with so few diphthongs?
Yes, definitely.
Nachtuil wrote:Does anyone know a language that has ay?
Finnish comes close enough with /æy/. It distinguishes a large number of diphthongs, and if it didn't have vowel harmony, there's no reason it couldn't have a few more.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nachtuil » 29 Aug 2016 22:30

Thank you guys so much! God bless Finnish too.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by OTʜᴇB » 31 Aug 2016 21:46

I need 4 sets of 4 phonemes. Plosives, Fricatives, Nasals/Approximants (one or the other where I'm somewhat favouring approximants [lateral or otherwise]), and Vowels. The tricky bit is I'd ideally want them all to be able to behave in pretty much the same way in that for instance all my plosives would all fit with the same other sounds in clusters etc.
My syllable structure is C(C)V(V)(C)(C)
So far, I've found that /p t k/ work well, as do /m n ŋ/, /l w ɹ/ and /f θ ʃ x/. In terms of vowels, I'm fairly happy with /a ɛ ɪ~i ʌ~u/ (is the tilde for allophones?).
I'm mostly struggling with finishing groups of 4. Any ideas? Cheers.
:con: : Current Project

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » 31 Aug 2016 21:59

OTʜᴇB wrote:I need 4 sets of 4 phonemes. Plosives, Fricatives, Nasals/Approximants (one or the other where I'm somewhat favouring approximants [lateral or otherwise]), and Vowels. The tricky bit is I'd ideally want them all to be able to behave in pretty much the same way in that for instance all my plosives would all fit with the same other sounds in clusters etc.
My syllable structure is C(C)V(V)(C)(C)
So far, I've found that /p t k/ work well, as do /m n ŋ/, /l w ɹ/ and /f θ ʃ x/. In terms of vowels, I'm fairly happy with /a ɛ ɪ~i ʌ~u/ (is the tilde for allophones?).
I'm mostly struggling with finishing groups of 4. Any ideas? Cheers.
Add a proper palatal series to complement the esh (stop/affricate, nasal and approximant).

The tilde is for allophones yes.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by OTʜᴇB » 31 Aug 2016 22:11

Frislander wrote:
OTʜᴇB wrote:I need 4 sets of 4 phonemes. Plosives, Fricatives, Nasals/Approximants (one or the other where I'm somewhat favouring approximants [lateral or otherwise]), and Vowels. The tricky bit is I'd ideally want them all to be able to behave in pretty much the same way in that for instance all my plosives would all fit with the same other sounds in clusters etc.
My syllable structure is C(C)V(V)(C)(C)
So far, I've found that /p t k/ work well, as do /m n ŋ/, /l w ɹ/ and /f θ ʃ x/. In terms of vowels, I'm fairly happy with /a ɛ ɪ~i ʌ~u/ (is the tilde for allophones?).
I'm mostly struggling with finishing groups of 4. Any ideas? Cheers.
Add a proper palatal series to complement the esh (stop/affricate, nasal and approximant).

The tilde is for allophones yes.
That's a good idea. So my plosives would be /p t c k/? I did also consider having 2 pairs in each group e.g. /t d k g/, but got stuck at approximants as unvoiced ones are a little tricky to hear clearly in my opinion. I could also go into very strong symmetry and have something like this:

Code: Select all

/p  t   c k/
/ f s ʃ   x/
/m  n  ɳ  ŋ/
:con: : Current Project

BTW I use Arch

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