(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
felipesnark
sinic
sinic
Posts: 392
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 02:12
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark » 20 Jun 2017 00:26

I'm considering a change in my phonological processes.

Right now among others:
/y/ + /i/ > /wi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /y/
/y/ + /u/ > /wo/ (there is an intermediate step of /wu/ > /wo/)
/ø/ + /u/ > /y/

These changes are important for outcomes in the nominal and verbal morphology (mainly the formation of certain plurals and perfect stems).

If /ø/ comes from historic */eu/, and if /y/ comes from historic */iu/, then perhaps...

/y/ + /i/ > /iwi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /ewi/
/y/ + /u/ > /iwo/
/ø/ + /u/ > /ewo/

Thoughts?
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3356
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 20 Jun 2017 00:52

felipesnark wrote:I'm considering a change in my phonological processes.

Right now among others:
/y/ + /i/ > /wi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /y/
/y/ + /u/ > /wo/ (there is an intermediate step of /wu/ > /wo/)
/ø/ + /u/ > /y/

These changes are important for outcomes in the nominal and verbal morphology (mainly the formation of certain plurals and perfect stems).

If /ø/ comes from historic */eu/, and if /y/ comes from historic */iu/, then perhaps...

/y/ + /i/ > /iwi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /ewi/
/y/ + /u/ > /iwo/
/ø/ + /u/ > /ewo/

Thoughts?
You could, in theory, have both. The original sound change, i.e. /eu iu/ > /ø y/ before a consonant or word-finally and /u/ > /w/ between vowels could happen first, and then this sound change could stop being productive. Some process could then lead to /ø y/ being followed by other vowels (either compounding or the development of a new affix or the like), and that's where /yi øi yu øu/ > /wi y wo y/ could kick in.

This would mean that some instances of /y/+/i/ would result in /iwi/ while others would result in /wi/. I can't think of a natlang example right now, but I think Slavic palatalisation and Germanic umlaut had similarly "timed" changes where certain sounds in certain environments would change in one way, then later on, those new sounds and remaining older ones, under the same environment, would change in a second way.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

felipesnark
sinic
sinic
Posts: 392
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 02:12
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark » 20 Jun 2017 01:47

sangi39 wrote:
felipesnark wrote:I'm considering a change in my phonological processes.

Right now among others:
/y/ + /i/ > /wi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /y/
/y/ + /u/ > /wo/ (there is an intermediate step of /wu/ > /wo/)
/ø/ + /u/ > /y/

These changes are important for outcomes in the nominal and verbal morphology (mainly the formation of certain plurals and perfect stems).

If /ø/ comes from historic */eu/, and if /y/ comes from historic */iu/, then perhaps...

/y/ + /i/ > /iwi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /ewi/
/y/ + /u/ > /iwo/
/ø/ + /u/ > /ewo/

Thoughts?
You could, in theory, have both. The original sound change, i.e. /eu iu/ > /ø y/ before a consonant or word-finally and /u/ > /w/ between vowels could happen first, and then this sound change could stop being productive. Some process could then lead to /ø y/ being followed by other vowels (either compounding or the development of a new affix or the like), and that's where /yi øi yu øu/ > /wi y wo y/ could kick in.

This would mean that some instances of /y/+/i/ would result in /iwi/ while others would result in /wi/. I can't think of a natlang example right now, but I think Slavic palatalisation and Germanic umlaut had similarly "timed" changes where certain sounds in certain environments would change in one way, then later on, those new sounds and remaining older ones, under the same environment, would change in a second way.
Thank you. This is helpful.
How about this?
The second set of outcomes are the historic sound changes, which have fossilized as regular alternations in verb paradigms and noun declensions:
/y/ + /i/ > /iwi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /ewi/
/y/ + /u/ > /iwo/
/ø/ + /u/ > /ewo/

For example, a regular singular noun ending in -/y/ forms its plural in -/iwi/ regardless of when it entered the language.

New(er) compounds, forming new nouns, verbs, and adjectives from existing words, show the first set of outcomes:
/y/ + /i/ > /wi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /y/
/y/ + /u/ > /wo/
/ø/ + /u/ > /y/
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3356
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 20 Jun 2017 01:52

felipesnark wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
felipesnark wrote:I'm considering a change in my phonological processes.

Right now among others:
/y/ + /i/ > /wi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /y/
/y/ + /u/ > /wo/ (there is an intermediate step of /wu/ > /wo/)
/ø/ + /u/ > /y/

These changes are important for outcomes in the nominal and verbal morphology (mainly the formation of certain plurals and perfect stems).

If /ø/ comes from historic */eu/, and if /y/ comes from historic */iu/, then perhaps...

/y/ + /i/ > /iwi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /ewi/
/y/ + /u/ > /iwo/
/ø/ + /u/ > /ewo/

Thoughts?
You could, in theory, have both. The original sound change, i.e. /eu iu/ > /ø y/ before a consonant or word-finally and /u/ > /w/ between vowels could happen first, and then this sound change could stop being productive. Some process could then lead to /ø y/ being followed by other vowels (either compounding or the development of a new affix or the like), and that's where /yi øi yu øu/ > /wi y wo y/ could kick in.

This would mean that some instances of /y/+/i/ would result in /iwi/ while others would result in /wi/. I can't think of a natlang example right now, but I think Slavic palatalisation and Germanic umlaut had similarly "timed" changes where certain sounds in certain environments would change in one way, then later on, those new sounds and remaining older ones, under the same environment, would change in a second way.
Thank you. This is helpful.
How about this?
The second set of outcomes are the historic sound changes, which have fossilized as regular alternations in verb paradigms and noun declensions:
/y/ + /i/ > /iwi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /ewi/
/y/ + /u/ > /iwo/
/ø/ + /u/ > /ewo/

For example, a regular singular noun ending in -/y/ forms its plural in -/iwi/ regardless of when it entered the language.

New(er) compounds, forming new nouns, verbs, and adjectives from existing words, show the first set of outcomes:
/y/ + /i/ > /wi/
/ø/ + /i/ > /y/
/y/ + /u/ > /wo/
/ø/ + /u/ > /y/
I think that could work [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

felipesnark
sinic
sinic
Posts: 392
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 02:12
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark » 20 Jun 2017 02:01

sangi39 wrote: I think that could work [:)]
Thanks a bunch! [:)]
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1833
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 20 Jun 2017 20:39

Hopefully I'm not asking too many questions on here but what are some elements of Turkish grammar that you guys think would make its way into a Romance language spoken in Turkey and heavily influenced by Turkish especially in regards to case and suffixes?

User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 2742
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 20 Jun 2017 21:52

All4Ɇn wrote:Hopefully I'm not asking too many questions on here but what are some elements of Turkish grammar that you guys think would make its way into a Romance language spoken in Turkey and heavily influenced by Turkish especially in regards to case and suffixes?
I already linked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greek I guess the features could appear in a Romlang as well.

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1833
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 20 Jun 2017 23:28

Omzinesý wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:Hopefully I'm not asking too many questions on here but what are some elements of Turkish grammar that you guys think would make its way into a Romance language spoken in Turkey and heavily influenced by Turkish especially in regards to case and suffixes?
I already linked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greek I guess the features could appear in a Romlang as well.
I wish I had seen this earlier. Definitely getting some great ideas from this [:D] . This does lead to a question that I'm almost certain has already been asked before, how would a language derived from vulgar latin maintain most case distinctions? Or is the simple answer to that question that they can't?

User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4527
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 20 Jun 2017 23:38

All4Ɇn wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:Hopefully I'm not asking too many questions on here but what are some elements of Turkish grammar that you guys think would make its way into a Romance language spoken in Turkey and heavily influenced by Turkish especially in regards to case and suffixes?
I already linked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greek I guess the features could appear in a Romlang as well.
I wish I had seen this earlier. Definitely getting some great ideas from this [:D] . This does lead to a question that I'm almost certain has already been asked before, how would a language derived from vulgar latin maintain most case distinctions? Or is the simple answer to that question that they can't?
Do a Romanian and affix the definite marker to the word
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5785
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Canada

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 21 Jun 2017 04:02

Is there some sound law where voiceless consonants become voiced while aspirated voiceless become unaspirated?
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Śāt Wērxālu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2879
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 21 Jun 2017 09:56

That sounds like simple lenition to me, plus a chain shift. As for sound laws, aren't those language-specific?

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5785
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Canada

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 21 Jun 2017 10:16

Dormouse559 wrote:That sounds like simple lenition to me, plus a chain shift. As for sound laws, aren't those language-specific?
No?
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Śāt Wērxālu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2879
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 21 Jun 2017 10:34

Ahzoh wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:That sounds like simple lenition to me, plus a chain shift. As for sound laws, aren't those language-specific?
No?
No what?

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5785
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Canada

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 21 Jun 2017 10:35

For the second part, your question.
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Śāt Wērxālu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4630
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » 21 Jun 2017 11:00

Ahzoh wrote:Is there some sound law where voiceless consonants become voiced while aspirated voiceless become unaspirated?
What's the syllable structure of the language in question? If it's strictly CV or sth like it, this kind of unconditioned modal → voiced followed by aspirated → modal sounds more likely.

User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2879
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 21 Jun 2017 11:01

I don't know of many sound laws that are meant to apply beyond a particular language family. Grassmann's, I guess.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3356
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 21 Jun 2017 14:22

Ahzoh wrote:Is there some sound law where voiceless consonants become voiced while aspirated voiceless become unaspirated?
It doesn't seem unreasonable. The initial shift could be as simple as something like intervocalic voicing of unaspirated voiceless stops, which then spreads to those sounds in all environments. This would the weaken the reliance of aspiration to distinguish the original set of sounds, i.e. one set is voiced while the other voiceless and aspirated, and that in turn could lead to aspiration being dropped, first in some environments, then in all environments.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

TwistedOne151
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 41
Joined: 11 Nov 2012 19:52

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by TwistedOne151 » 22 Jun 2017 13:16

Given the following consonant inventory, does the romanization I have (in the angle brackets) seem alright?

Nasals: /m n/ <m n>
Stops:
voiced: /b d g/ <b d g>
voiceless: /p t k ʔ/ <p t k '>
ejective: /tʼ kʼ qʼ/ <t' k' q'>
Affricates:
voiceless: /t͡ɬ ʈ͡ʂ t͡ɕ q͡χ/<tl č ć qh>
ejective: /t͡sʼ t͡ɬʼ ʈ͡ʂʼ t͡ɕʼ/ <ts' tl' č' ć'>
Fricatives:
voiced: /z ʐ ʑ ʁ/ <z ž ź gh>
voiceless: /f s ɬ ʂ ɕ χ h/ <f s lh š ś kh h>
Liquids: /r l/ <r l>
Semivowels: /j w/ <y w>

Any suggested changes? <x> instead of <kh> for /χ/ perhaps (and then <qx> for /q͡χ/)? Something other than <gh> for /ʁ/? Digraphs of some kind rather than accents for the retroflexes and alveolopalatals? Or does it work well enough as is?

User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 3498
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » 22 Jun 2017 13:52

Alright? It's almost exactly the same as what I'd have gone for with that inventory! (with the exception of the uvular affricate which I'd be tempted to write <qx> or even <q>, and the velar fricative which I'd write with <x>). Go for it!

User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 2742
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 22 Jun 2017 14:40

All4Ɇn wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:Hopefully I'm not asking too many questions on here but what are some elements of Turkish grammar that you guys think would make its way into a Romance language spoken in Turkey and heavily influenced by Turkish especially in regards to case and suffixes?
I already linked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greek I guess the features could appear in a Romlang as well.
I wish I had seen this earlier. Definitely getting some great ideas from this [:D] . This does lead to a question that I'm almost certain has already been asked before, how would a language derived from vulgar latin maintain most case distinctions? Or is the simple answer to that question that they can't?
Logically the language can either maintain (some of) the old cases or gain new ones.
As far as I understand, what is called Vulgar Latin lonst vowel length and the accusative -m. The other cases have been lost in "individual languages".
Old french still had distinct nominative and accusative, the nominative marked with -s. If I remenber right, the Romanian genitive-dative in the feminine is -e and derives from Latin -ae. The ablative is apparently lost altogether.
For new cases Ramance prepositions can be exploited or Turkish elements can be used.

Post Reply