(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Omzinesý
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 22 Jun 2017 14:47

TwistedOne151 wrote:Given the following consonant inventory, does the romanization I have (in the angle brackets) seem alright?

Nasals: /m n/ <m n>
Stops:
voiced: /b d g/ <b d g>
voiceless: /p t k ʔ/ <p t k '>
ejective: /tʼ kʼ qʼ/ <t' k' q'>
Affricates:
voiceless: /t͡ɬ ʈ͡ʂ t͡ɕ q͡χ/<tl č ć qh>
ejective: /t͡sʼ t͡ɬʼ ʈ͡ʂʼ t͡ɕʼ/ <ts' tl' č' ć'>
Fricatives:
voiced: /z ʐ ʑ ʁ/ <z ž ź gh>
voiceless: /f s ɬ ʂ ɕ χ h/ <f s lh š ś kh h>
Liquids: /r l/ <r l>
Semivowels: /j w/ <y w>

Any suggested changes? <x> instead of <kh> for /χ/ perhaps (and then <qx> for /q͡χ/)? Something other than <gh> for /ʁ/? Digraphs of some kind rather than accents for the retroflexes and alveolopalatals? Or does it work well enough as is?
Wouldn't <c'> be logical for /ts'/.
<ł> instead of <lh> if you want to avoid digraphs.
I personally like <j> instead of <y> that's a matter of taste.
The voiced uvular fricative is always problematic.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 22 Jun 2017 14:53

Ahzoh wrote:Is there some sound law where voiceless consonants become voiced while aspirated voiceless become unaspirated?
Sound law is not an appropriate term. There is no need for that to happen but it sounds very possible. So it'sa possible sound change, a consonant shift to say.
Aspiration and voice are a kind of same phenomenon phonetically, anyway. It's about the language where it makes the distinction on the continuum.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by TwistedOne151 » 22 Jun 2017 22:27

Omzinesý wrote:Wouldn't <c'> be logical for /ts'/.
Yes, it would. Or, perhaps I could go the other direction and replace <č ć č' ć'> with <tš tś tš' tś'> for /ʈ͡ʂ t͡ɕ ʈ͡ʂʼ t͡ɕʼ/?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 23 Jun 2017 04:57

Ways to develop retroflex fricatives aside from rhotic vowels, rC and Cr clusters?

Omzinesý wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Is there some sound law where voiceless consonants become voiced while aspirated voiceless become unaspirated?
Sound law is not an appropriate term. There is no need for that to happen but it sounds very possible. So it'sa possible sound change, a consonant shift to say.
Aspiration and voice are a kind of same phenomenon phonetically, anyway. It's about the language where it makes the distinction on the continuum.
Well, I refer to the fact that languages can undergro Grimm's law or the RUKI law or Ostmann's law.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 23 Jun 2017 05:03

Ahzoh wrote:Ways to develop retroflex fricatives aside from rhotic vowels, rC and Cr clusters?

Omzinesý wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Is there some sound law where voiceless consonants become voiced while aspirated voiceless become unaspirated?
Sound law is not an appropriate term. There is no need for that to happen but it sounds very possible. So it'sa possible sound change, a consonant shift to say.
Aspiration and voice are a kind of same phenomenon phonetically, anyway. It's about the language where it makes the distinction on the continuum.
Well, I refer to the fact that languages can undergro Grimm's law or the RUKI law or Ostmann's law.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 23 Jun 2017 05:52

Thought those were alveolo-palatal.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 23 Jun 2017 10:23

People are objecting to the term "sound law" because sound laws are not universal. They describe sound changes that occurred once, in one language/language family (though obviously the situation on the ground can be a little messier). Though it's possible to say in a colloquial way to say "X Amazonian language underwent Grimm's Law" and make yourself understood, especially in the conlanging community, it's still kind of confusing and mainly garners a "What???" response, at least from me, since "Grimm's Law" only refers to a sound change in PIE/Germanic. I.e. The Tuscan gorgia is almost the same as Grimm's Law, but it's not called Grimm's Law.

When talking about sound changes in different languages, we tend to use more abstract terms, like"frication of voiceless stops", or use historical sound changes as more of a benchmark, e.g. "a RUKI-like sound law" or "a sound change much like Grimm's Law". If saying "My conlang underwent Grimm's Law" makes sense at all, its face value meaning is that your conlang underwent literally the exact same change as Germanic/PIE, with the same conditions, the same rules for clusters, voiced stops, and so on, which is probably not what was meant.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ashtăr Balynestjăr » 23 Jun 2017 20:31

How would you romanize this ludicrously large consonant inventory? It’s for a protolang in my upcoming conworld.

/m n̪ ɳ nʲ ŋ ŋʷ/
/p t̪ ʈ tʲ ts tʂ tɕ k kʷ q qʷ ʔ ʔʷ/
/pʰ t̪ʰ ʈʰ tʲʰ tsʰ tʂʰ tɕʰ kʰ kʷʰ qʰ qʷʰ/
/pʼ t̪ʼ ʈʼ tʲʼ tsʼ tʂʼ tɕʼ kʼ kʷʼ qʼ qʷʼ/
/b̰ d̪̰ ɖ̰ d̰ʲ dz̰ dʐ̰ dʑ̰/
/ᵐb ⁿd̪ ⁿɖ ⁿdʲ ⁿdz ⁿdʐ ⁿdʑ ᵑɡ ᵑɡʷ/
/θ ç s ʂ ɕ x xʷ χ χʷ h hʷ/
/ð ʝ z ʐ ʑ ɣ ɣʷ ʁ ʁʷ/
/l̪ r̪ ɻ lʲ rʲ ɫ ɫʷ/
[ˈaʃt̪əɹ ˈbalɨˌnɛsʲtʲəɹ]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 23 Jun 2017 20:42

/m n ɳ nʲ ŋ ŋʷ/ <m n ṇ nj ŋ ŋw>
/p t ʈ tʲ ts tʂ tɕ k kʷ q qʷ ʔ ʔʷ/ <b d ḍ dj dz ḍẓ dź g gw c cw ' 'w>
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ tʲʰ tsʰ tʂʰ tɕʰ kʰ kʷʰ qʰ qʷʰ/ <p t ṭ tj ts ṭṣ tś k kw q qw>
/pʼ tʼ ʈʼ tʲʼ tsʼ tʂʼ tɕʼ kʼ kʷʼ qʼ qʷʼ/ <p' t' ṭ' tj' ts' ṭṣ' tś' k' kw' q' qw'>
/b̰ d̰ ɖ̰ d̰ʲ dz̰ dʐ̰ dʑ̰/ <b' d' ḍ' dj' dz' ḍẓ' dź'>
/ᵐb ⁿd ⁿɖ ⁿdʲ ⁿdz ⁿdʐ ⁿdʑ ᵑɡ ᵑɡʷ/ <mb nd ṇḍ ndj ndz ṇḍẓ ndź ŋg ŋgw>
/θ ç s ʂ ɕ x xʷ χ χʷ h hʷ/ <þ xj s ṣ ś x xw ẋ ẋw h hw>
/ð ʝ z ʐ ʑ ɣ ɣʷ ʁ ʁʷ/ <ð ǧj z ẓ ź ǧ ǧw č čw>
/l r ɻ lʲ rʲ ɫ ɫʷ/ <l r ṛ lj rj ł łw>

Perhaps?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ashtăr Balynestjăr » 23 Jun 2017 21:45

I like that, but I’m not completely satisfied with <c> for /q/. I think I’d rather use it for /ç/. From the words I’ve built so far, the aspirated stop series seems to be the most marked, so I reassigned <p t k> to the tenuis stops and <b d> to the creaky stops. The prenasalized series is less marked than the creaky series, but I was pretty much set on romanizing it as <mb nd ŋg> anyway.

I guess I’ll go with this.

/m n ɳ nʲ ŋ ŋʷ/ <m n ṇ nj ŋ ŋw>
/p t ʈ tʲ ts tʂ tɕ k kʷ q qʷ ʔ ʔʷ/ <p t ṭ tj ts tš tś k kw q qw ’ ’w>
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ tʲʰ tsʰ tʂʰ tɕʰ kʰ kʷʰ qʰ qʷʰ/ <ph th ṭh thj tsh tšh tśh kh khw qh qhw>
/pʼ tʼ ʈʼ tʲʼ tsʼ tʂʼ tɕʼ kʼ kʷʼ qʼ qʷʼ/ <p’ t’ ṭ’ tj’ ts’ tš’ tś’ k’ kw’ q’ qw’>
/b̰ d̰ ɖ̰ d̰ʲ dz̰ dʐ̰ dʑ̰/ <b d ḍ dj dz dž dź>
/ᵐb ⁿd ⁿɖ ⁿdʲ ⁿdz ⁿdʐ ⁿdʑ ᵑɡ ᵑɡʷ/ <mb nd ṇḍ ndj nz nž nź ŋg ŋgw>
/θ ç s ʂ ɕ x xʷ χ χʷ h hʷ/ <þ c s š ś x xw ẋ ẋw h hw>
/ð ʝ z ʐ ʑ ɣ ɣʷ ʁ ʁʷ/ <ð y z ž ź g gw ġ ġw>
/l r ɻ lʲ rʲ ɫ ɫʷ/ <l r ṛ lj rj ł łw>
[ˈaʃt̪əɹ ˈbalɨˌnɛsʲtʲəɹ]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » 26 Jun 2017 06:50

How can a language go from having a two-way demonstrative distinction to a three-way distinction?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 26 Jun 2017 06:58

Shemtov wrote:How can a language go from having a two-way demonstrative distinction to a three-way distinction?
Many ways, usually adding a distal and moving the old distal to a medial. That's what happened in the Romance langauges.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » 26 Jun 2017 06:59

Shemtov wrote:How can a language go from having a two-way demonstrative distinction to a three-way distinction?
Have the distal shift to medial-distal, then add an emphatic particle (derived from the adverb 'there' or similar) to distinguish medial and distal. The particle first comes after the NP but then moves into the NP to cliticise onto the demonstrative. Voilà.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » 27 Jun 2017 15:55

DesEsseintes wrote:
Shemtov wrote:How can a language go from having a two-way demonstrative distinction to a three-way distinction?
Have the distal shift to medial-distal, then add an emphatic particle (derived from the adverb 'there' or similar) to distinguish medial and distal. The particle first comes after the NP but then moves into the NP to cliticise onto the demonstrative. Voilà.
Pun intended?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala » 27 Jun 2017 18:19

Why, when posting one's conlang (as a scratchpad or whatnot), do we by default begin with the phonology?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » 27 Jun 2017 18:33

holbuzvala wrote:Why, when posting one's conlang (as a scratchpad or whatnot), do we by default begin with the phonology?
Two reasons I can think of.

1. There is a certain amount of Tradition behind it. This is where all the great historical grammars start and is generally the place various Teach Yourself type works start.

2. (Very sadly), too many invented languages that get posted here never get beyond the phonology stage. If people waited for the syntax to come along, scratchpads and invented language threads alike would be eerily empty, devoid of all content. I guess, better a long string of interminable phonology posts and walls of IPA correspondence than nothing at all...


Me I tend to start with poetry or a snippet of story or something like that, then work through grammar and syntax and if I feel like it, will get to the phonology somewhere around last.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 27 Jun 2017 18:40

elemtilas wrote:2. (Very sadly), too many invented languages that get posted here never get beyond the phonology stage. If people waited for the syntax to come along, scratchpads and invented language threads alike would be eerily empty, devoid of all content. I guess, better a long string of interminable phonology posts and walls of IPA correspondence than nothing at all...
Omlűt (link in sig) is one of the examples of a languages that kept going til syntax came.
I guess some people just like to read out loud what they see.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 27 Jun 2017 20:00

elemtilas wrote:
holbuzvala wrote:Why, when posting one's conlang (as a scratchpad or whatnot), do we by default begin with the phonology?
Two reasons I can think of.

1. There is a certain amount of Tradition behind it. This is where all the great historical grammars start and is generally the place various Teach Yourself type works start.

2. (Very sadly), too many invented languages that get posted here never get beyond the phonology stage. If people waited for the syntax to come along, scratchpads and invented language threads alike would be eerily empty, devoid of all content. I guess, better a long string of interminable phonology posts and walls of IPA correspondence than nothing at all...


Me I tend to start with poetry or a snippet of story or something like that, then work through grammar and syntax and if I feel like it, will get to the phonology somewhere around last.
It's also I suppose due to the fact that people want those reading their conlang posts to be able to pronounce the conlang properly in their head when they read the example sentences and everything.

To be honest, I've never been that interested in phonology, but I did start with it because of the tradition of grammars and because I wanted people to not run into perplexing orthography without some knowledge of how to say it.

Now, about getting back to my conlang that I abandoned... [:'(]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lao Kou » 28 Jun 2017 02:27

elemtilas wrote:
holbuzvala wrote:Why, when posting one's conlang (as a scratchpad or whatnot), do we by default begin with the phonology?
Two reasons I can think of.

1. There is a certain amount of Tradition behind it. This is where all the great historical grammars start and is generally the place various Teach Yourself type works start.
There are sign languages, of course, but the majority of languages, as we understand the term, are delivered vocally and perceived aurally, so it makes a modicum of sense to start there. If you were going to summer in Italy next week, wouldn't you want to know how to pronounce those wacky new words you'd need to buy a fresh yoghurt?
2. (Very sadly), too many invented languages that get posted here never get beyond the phonology stage. If people waited for the syntax to come along, scratchpads and invented language threads alike would be eerily empty, devoid of all content.
I lament with Elem on this.
I guess, better a long string of interminable phonology posts and walls of IPA correspondence than nothing at all...
Here, I beg to differ. It's like standing in the hardware store before those little strips of painting color samples. Now, I like mauve, celery, cerulean, and umber as well as the next person, but go and paint the dining room, for goodness' sake.

"Hey, some sounds!" [:D]

"Yes, those are sounds. Now what?" :roll:
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » 28 Jun 2017 04:04

Creyeditor wrote:
elemtilas wrote:2. (Very sadly), too many invented languages that get posted here never get beyond the phonology stage. If people waited for the syntax to come along, scratchpads and invented language threads alike would be eerily empty, devoid of all content. I guess, better a long string of interminable phonology posts and walls of IPA correspondence than nothing at all...
I guess some people just like to read out loud what they see.
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:It's also I suppose due to the fact that people want those reading their conlang posts to be able to pronounce the conlang properly in their head when they read the example sentences and everything.
I wasn't complaining about people reading aloud what they see so much as there too frequently never actually being anything to read aloud in the first place!!
Lao Kou wrote:Here, I beg to differ. It's like standing in the hardware store before those little strips of painting color samples. Now, I like mauve, celery, cerulean, and umber as well as the next person, but go and paint the dining room, for goodness' sake.

"Hey, some sounds!" [:D]

"Yes, those are sounds. Now what?" :roll:
There is that!

As I see it, at least with the little colour strips, at least there is the hope that somewhere on the shelf will be some paint and rollers and drop cloths and those nifty little paint-can-opener-things-that-also-do-a-treat-on-fixing-the-business-end-of-a-penny-whistle. And so it is with the Wall-o-IPA posts --- there is a hope that words and then sentences will appear. Shortly followed by standard translation texts and eventually original myths and bits of folk tale or even some article from Popular Thaumics!

But alas, too frequently the convo starts and ends at "Hey, some sounds!" :mrred:

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