(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Pabappa
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 12 Aug 2018 16:11

For example the IE gap of *tl, dl, etc tht survives in moat languages, the scarcity of /ts/ in ancient gk due to >ss,the lack of vl,vr,etc in normal English words. Diachronics explains the ones we know....It's possible pre-PIE had and lost /tl/.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » 14 Aug 2018 03:04

Would an althistory where the Romans conquered part of Ireland, which had or has a Romance language competing in those parts with Gaelic work?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 14 Aug 2018 03:47

Shemtov wrote:
14 Aug 2018 03:04
Would an althistory where the Romans conquered part of Ireland, which had or has a Romance language competing in those parts with Gaelic work?
I don't see why not. OTL the Irish were very much influenced by Rome, even though they never spoke Latin.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by this_is_an_account » 14 Aug 2018 05:40

Hello! This is my first question here. I have an idea for noun declensions that don't change the inflexional affixes of nouns (so a noun in declension 1 would take identical case markings and number markings as a noun in declension 2), but instead would affect what derivational markings a noun got (so a noun in declension 1 would take a different diminutive marker or collective marker than a noun in declension 2). Are there any languages that do something like this?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » 14 Aug 2018 07:29

this_is_an_account wrote:
14 Aug 2018 05:40
Hello! This is my first question here. I have an idea for noun declensions that don't change the inflexional affixes of nouns (so a noun in declension 1 would take identical case markings and number markings as a noun in declension 2), but instead would affect what derivational markings a noun got (so a noun in declension 1 would take a different diminutive marker or collective marker than a noun in declension 2). Are there any languages that do something like this?
I haven't heard of any language that'd do something like this. That said, I don't see why not - but I wouldn't call those declensions. The divide here would likely be semantic-based (perhaps gender?).

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 14 Aug 2018 13:21

English does various things like this with different derivational endings - some can't be applied to just any word, and sometimes there are two with equivalent meaning that attach to words under different phonological or semantic conditions. E.g. (I can't think of a really good example offhand) we have China > Chinese, but no China > Chinan - and in fact I would say that "Chinan" is disallowed. It's not always hard-and-fast, though. So yeah I'd say this is possible, but I wouldn't call it "declension" since that's generally about inflection. Maybe call them "derivational classes"?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 14 Aug 2018 13:28

gestaltist wrote:
14 Aug 2018 07:29
this_is_an_account wrote:
14 Aug 2018 05:40
Hello! This is my first question here. I have an idea for noun declensions that don't change the inflexional affixes of nouns (so a noun in declension 1 would take identical case markings and number markings as a noun in declension 2), but instead would affect what derivational markings a noun got (so a noun in declension 1 would take a different diminutive marker or collective marker than a noun in declension 2). Are there any languages that do something like this?
I haven't heard of any language that'd do something like this. That said, I don't see why not - but I wouldn't call those declensions. The divide here would likely be semantic-based (perhaps gender?).
As far as I know, declension means an inflectional paradigm of nouns. But of course there are different kinds of stems for attaching derivational endings.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by this_is_an_account » 14 Aug 2018 18:04

Derivational class is probably the best name for it, and since I do happen to have grammatical gender, I'll base it off of that. Also, would it be weird for some nouns to be irregular and take some or all of their derivational affixes from a different class? How about some derivations applying to all nouns regardless of gender?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 14 Aug 2018 18:44

this_is_an_account wrote:
14 Aug 2018 18:04
Derivational class is probably the best name for it, and since I do happen to have grammatical gender, I'll base it off of that. Also, would it be weird for some nouns to be irregular and take some or all of their derivational affixes from a different class? How about some derivations applying to all nouns regardless of gender?
IMO all of that would be realistic and naturalistic.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by QuantumWraith » 15 Aug 2018 03:10

In a language with a phonetic inventory of [m m̥ n n̥ t tʰ k kʰ s h l l̥ r r̥ j j̥ w w̥] in which all sequences are phonetically CV, is it more appropriate to analyze a sequence such as [m̥a] as /m̥a/ or /mha/? Perhaps more to the root of my question is: must a language have clusters of some consonant plus some approximant before it can be considered to have clusters at all?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 15 Aug 2018 03:22

QuantumWraith wrote:
15 Aug 2018 03:10
In a language with a phonetic inventory of [m m̥ n n̥ t tʰ k kʰ s h l l̥ r r̥ j j̥ w w̥] in which all sequences are phonetically CV, is it more appropriate to analyze a sequence such as [m̥a] as /m̥a/ or /mha/? Perhaps more to the root of my question is: must a language have clusters of some consonant plus some approximant before it can be considered to have clusters at all?
I’m pretty sure that’s for you to say.
We won’t know until you tell us.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » 15 Aug 2018 03:55

Ælfwine wrote:
14 Aug 2018 03:47
Shemtov wrote:
14 Aug 2018 03:04
Would an althistory where the Romans conquered part of Ireland, which had or has a Romance language competing in those parts with Gaelic work?
I don't see why not. OTL the Irish were very much influenced by Rome, even though they never spoke Latin.
Are people willing to do a collablang of this? I want this, but I can't do a full a posteriori conlang without going nuts/ overestimating/ underestimating the change.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 15 Aug 2018 04:01

QuantumWraith wrote:
15 Aug 2018 03:10
In a language with a phonetic inventory of [m m̥ n n̥ t tʰ k kʰ s h l l̥ r r̥ j j̥ w w̥] in which all sequences are phonetically CV, is it more appropriate to analyze a sequence such as [m̥a] as /m̥a/ or /mha/? Perhaps more to the root of my question is: must a language have clusters of some consonant plus some approximant before it can be considered to have clusters at all?
The answer to the root of your question is no. A language must have clusters of some consonant and some consonant to have clusters. The exact natures of these consonants are unimportant on a non-language-specific level. That said, there may be some combinations that are considered consonant clusters in some languages but not in others, depending on the details of the phonology (Is [tj] a consonant cluster or a consonant followed by a semivowel?).

Your question on [m̥a] is difficult to answer without more information. Does [m̥] only emerge from a sequence of [m] and [h]? If so, the /mh/ analysis makes more sense. If [m̥] can also appear in other contexts, it is probably better analyzed as its own phoneme, /m̥/.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 15 Aug 2018 04:41

I would simplify and just analyze /h/ as an independent part of the syllable. A language with just one type of cluster still has clust3rs. The only asymmetry is /s/ .... was there ever a /sh/?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 15 Aug 2018 14:11

Would dentalization of alveolars, such as /n → n̪/ interfere with the interchangeability of alveolars with retroflexes, such as /n~ɳ/?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 15 Aug 2018 14:41

Pabappa wrote:
15 Aug 2018 04:41
I would simplify and just analyze /h/ as an independent part of the syllable. A language with just one type of cluster still has clust3rs. The only asymmetry is /s/ .... was there ever a /sh/?
I interpret the language as having phonemic clusters as well. I took "all sequences are phonetically CV" to allow for the possibility that all phonemic consonant clusters allophonically coalesce.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 15 Aug 2018 15:49

Shemtov wrote:
15 Aug 2018 03:55
Ælfwine wrote:
14 Aug 2018 03:47
Shemtov wrote:
14 Aug 2018 03:04
Would an althistory where the Romans conquered part of Ireland, which had or has a Romance language competing in those parts with Gaelic work?
I don't see why not. OTL the Irish were very much influenced by Rome, even though they never spoke Latin.
Are people willing to do a collablang of this? I want this, but I can't do a full a posteriori conlang without going nuts/ overestimating/ underestimating the change.
I can definitely help.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 16 Aug 2018 01:18

Is it acoustically possible to trill /ɕ ʑ/?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 16 Aug 2018 12:35

Isn't the second one the Czech r?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 16 Aug 2018 15:27

Wikipedia describes it as "sounding a little like a simultaneous [r] and [ʐ] (or [r̥] and [ʂ] when devoiced)," which means it could be a retroflex (native speaker, please help).

Do I need to include purely allophonic sounds in a language's IPA chart? For example, A'atun's chart currently includes the uvulars (/ɴ/, etc.) but lists them as allophones.
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