(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Tuyono
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Tuyono » 27 Jun 2019 08:41

Thank you all for the answers!
holbuzvala wrote:
26 Jun 2019 23:14

Classical Arabic has two reciprocal constructions I know of. One is to use the word 'some' ("ba3ḍ") /baʕdˤ/ twice, the first instance usually taking a plural pronoun suffix, and the second taking the definite article 'al'.

li-ba3ḍ-ihim al-ba3ḍ
for-other-3PL.M DEF-other
"For the other of them the other"
For each other.

The second thing Arabic does is to use a special reciprocal verb form (Form VI). If the root letters are 1-2-3, then the form looks like 'ta1ā2a3a'.

Kānū yatakātabūna
be.3PL.M.PST write.RECIP.3PL.M.PRS
"They were they are writing reciprocally"
They were writing to each other/ They were corresponding.
Hebrew uses the second strategy for some verbs,, including 'write', which is why I'm avoiding it (I want Źilaa Ruńu to be its own thing and not to relex too much), but I didn't know the first one.
Omzinesý wrote:
26 Jun 2019 22:29
Arabic and Russian derive their reciprocal pronouns from ' friend'.
Hebrew has this option as well, although it's very archaic. We have too many strategies and I can't even come up with a single one, hmmm...
Creyeditor wrote:
26 Jun 2019 23:33
another construction uses 'sich gegen-seit-ig', which could be glossed as 'REFL against-side-ADJ' or less literally 'self mutual'
Ha! this one is really interesting.
Creyeditor wrote:
26 Jun 2019 23:33
Indonesian has three reciprocal expression
`baku' can also mean 'standard' or 'core'
Also this one! I can't really imagine how it got both meanings
Creyeditor wrote:
26 Jun 2019 23:33
`saling' can mean 'mutually' or 'reciprocally' and can also be nominalized, so it's more like a content word
I'll probably end up using something like this.
Reyzadren wrote:
27 Jun 2019 00:46
+ Craft with the "intransitive", "patient" and "plural" affixes/constructions. Note: These affixes by themselves don't do anything exactly as glossed and have no actual linguistic analogues, I'm just simply labelling them, their actual names are something else.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "craft". Could you give an example?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 27 Jun 2019 17:46

Vowel tone-to-length conversion may have been touched on before, but I don't feel it looking it up. Is a system deriving current vowel length from past vowel tone, such as [é è e → eː eˑ e], plausible?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 27 Jun 2019 18:49

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 17:46
Vowel tone-to-length conversion may have been touched on before, but I don't feel it looking it up. Is a system deriving current vowel length from past vowel tone, such as [é è e → eː eˑ e], plausible?
IIRC, in languages like Burmese, the "higher" ending tones also appear alongside a lengthening of the vowel, why the "lower" ending tones appear alongside short vowels. Some Vietnamese tones have similar interactions with vowel length and phonation, and some of the Wu Chinese dialects might as well.

I'm not sure which might have come first though, either phonation/length then tone, tone then length/phonation, or some combination of the two. However, I don't see it as being unreasonable that, if tones end up being worn down, in a similar manner to that seen in Shanghainese, where tone becomes a feature of whole words, rather than individual syllables (tonal to pitch accent?), then vowel length could become distinct from tone.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
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That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 27 Jun 2019 21:47

sangi39 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 18:49
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 17:46
Vowel tone-to-length conversion may have been touched on before, but I don't feel it looking it up. Is a system deriving current vowel length from past vowel tone, such as [é è e → eː eˑ e], plausible?
IIRC, in languages like Burmese, the "higher" ending tones also appear alongside a lengthening of the vowel, why the "lower" ending tones appear alongside short vowels. Some Vietnamese tones have similar interactions with vowel length and phonation, and some of the Wu Chinese dialects might as well.

I'm not sure which might have come first though, either phonation/length then tone, tone then length/phonation, or some combination of the two. However, I don't see it as being unreasonable that, if tones end up being worn down, in a similar manner to that seen in Shanghainese, where tone becomes a feature of whole words, rather than individual syllables (tonal to pitch accent?), then vowel length could become distinct from tone.
To make sure I'm understanding correctly, is something like [sá.θɔ.nè → saːθɔ.neˑ] plausible if tone completely disappears?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 27 Jun 2019 21:57

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 21:47
sangi39 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 18:49
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 17:46
Vowel tone-to-length conversion may have been touched on before, but I don't feel it looking it up. Is a system deriving current vowel length from past vowel tone, such as [é è e → eː eˑ e], plausible?
IIRC, in languages like Burmese, the "higher" ending tones also appear alongside a lengthening of the vowel, why the "lower" ending tones appear alongside short vowels. Some Vietnamese tones have similar interactions with vowel length and phonation, and some of the Wu Chinese dialects might as well.

I'm not sure which might have come first though, either phonation/length then tone, tone then length/phonation, or some combination of the two. However, I don't see it as being unreasonable that, if tones end up being worn down, in a similar manner to that seen in Shanghainese, where tone becomes a feature of whole words, rather than individual syllables (tonal to pitch accent?), then vowel length could become distinct from tone.
To make sure I'm understanding correctly, is something like [sáthɔnè → saːθɔ.neˑ] plausible if tone completely disappears?
It would depend on what other features appear alongside tone (I did some looking, and such language are apparently said to have "register" or "pitch register" as opposed to simply being "tonal" in the usual sense, i.e. tone isn't the only thing going on. For example, a "high register" might be a mix of high tone and a lengthened vowel, while a "low register" might be a low tone and a short vowel, while a "checked register" might carry low tone and be glottalised.

So what might happen is something like: [sáthɔnè → sáːθɔ.nèʔ → saːθó.nĕʔ → saː'θo.nĕ]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 27 Jun 2019 23:07

sangi39 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 21:57
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 21:47
sangi39 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 18:49
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 17:46
Vowel tone-to-length conversion may have been touched on before, but I don't feel it looking it up. Is a system deriving current vowel length from past vowel tone, such as [é è e → eː eˑ e], plausible?
IIRC, in languages like Burmese, the "higher" ending tones also appear alongside a lengthening of the vowel, why the "lower" ending tones appear alongside short vowels. Some Vietnamese tones have similar interactions with vowel length and phonation, and some of the Wu Chinese dialects might as well.

I'm not sure which might have come first though, either phonation/length then tone, tone then length/phonation, or some combination of the two. However, I don't see it as being unreasonable that, if tones end up being worn down, in a similar manner to that seen in Shanghainese, where tone becomes a feature of whole words, rather than individual syllables (tonal to pitch accent?), then vowel length could become distinct from tone.
To make sure I'm understanding correctly, is something like [sáthɔnè → saːθɔ.neˑ] plausible if tone completely disappears?
It would depend on what other features appear alongside tone (I did some looking, and such language are apparently said to have "register" or "pitch register" as opposed to simply being "tonal" in the usual sense, i.e. tone isn't the only thing going on. For example, a "high register" might be a mix of high tone and a lengthened vowel, while a "low register" might be a low tone and a short vowel, while a "checked register" might carry low tone and be glottalised.

So what might happen is something like: [sáthɔnè → sáːθɔ.nèʔ → saːθó.nĕʔ → saː'θo.nĕ]
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Reyzadren » 28 Jun 2019 00:37

Tuyono wrote:
27 Jun 2019 08:41
Thank you all for the answers!
Reyzadren wrote:
27 Jun 2019 00:46
+ Craft with the "intransitive", "patient" and "plural" affixes/constructions. Note: These affixes by themselves don't do anything exactly as glossed and have no actual linguistic analogues, I'm just simply labelling them, their actual names are something else.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "craft". Could you give an example?
One needs to craft/build their own affixation to form a "grammatical unit" according to what this natlang "sees", with a combination of affixes. However, the combination itself might not make sense linguistically. Furthermore, the usage of one or many affixes are different across words, every verb does its own thing.

As another example: If I wanted to invoke circumstantial trigger mechanics, for a particular word, I would need to use the "passive" and "causative" affixes. Notice there isn't 1 morpheme that corresponds to this voice, one would need to craft it from scratch, and this might not be valid for another word. It's basically an irregularity within an irregularity, which is quite possibly the most annoying facet of this natlang.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Solarius » 28 Jun 2019 00:40

I have a little bit of a tricky situation with my conlang Sembenese, which I made up a long time ago as a speedlang on this very board and which I'm currently reviving.

Sembenese is currently supposed to do the Basque thing of having a relatively small number of verbs, with most acting as auxiliaries. But rather than rip off Basque, I decided to have two of the primary auxiliaries be an andative hep and a venitive hõek. This is all jolly good fun in verbs of motion, but it's a bit harder in other verbs--basically I've been thinking that I want to use them to make something sort of quirky like English phrasal verbs or Slavic-style prepositions prefixed onto verbs, but I'm having a hard time thinking of ways to shift their meaning around since I don't really want this to be inflectional and more lexical/semantic instead.

Any suggestions? Sorry if this is a convoluted mess; this kind of stuff breaks my brain a bit.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 28 Jun 2019 01:32

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 23:07
sangi39 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 21:57
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 21:47
sangi39 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 18:49
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 17:46
Vowel tone-to-length conversion may have been touched on before, but I don't feel it looking it up. Is a system deriving current vowel length from past vowel tone, such as [é è e → eː eˑ e], plausible?
IIRC, in languages like Burmese, the "higher" ending tones also appear alongside a lengthening of the vowel, why the "lower" ending tones appear alongside short vowels. Some Vietnamese tones have similar interactions with vowel length and phonation, and some of the Wu Chinese dialects might as well.

I'm not sure which might have come first though, either phonation/length then tone, tone then length/phonation, or some combination of the two. However, I don't see it as being unreasonable that, if tones end up being worn down, in a similar manner to that seen in Shanghainese, where tone becomes a feature of whole words, rather than individual syllables (tonal to pitch accent?), then vowel length could become distinct from tone.
To make sure I'm understanding correctly, is something like [sáthɔnè → saːθɔ.neˑ] plausible if tone completely disappears?
It would depend on what other features appear alongside tone (I did some looking, and such language are apparently said to have "register" or "pitch register" as opposed to simply being "tonal" in the usual sense, i.e. tone isn't the only thing going on. For example, a "high register" might be a mix of high tone and a lengthened vowel, while a "low register" might be a low tone and a short vowel, while a "checked register" might carry low tone and be glottalised.

So what might happen is something like: [sáthɔnè → sáːθɔ.nèʔ → saːθó.nĕʔ → saː'θo.nĕ]
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.
Just making sure this gets seen cause plain edits can get overlooked.

Is having an extra short vowel turn into a lax vowel plausible? Continuing the example case results in [saː'θo.nĕ → saː'θo.nɛ].
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nachtuil » 28 Jun 2019 05:37

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
28 Jun 2019 01:32

Just making sure this gets seen cause plain edits can get overlooked.

Is having an extra short vowel turn into a lax vowel plausible? Continuing the example case results in [saː'θo.nĕ → saː'θo.nɛ].
That certainly is reasonable in general though I don't know if you have a highly specific context in mind. The example you give I wouldn't bat an eye at, especially if the syllable is unstressed. The short vowels in Latin were lax variants compared to the long versions. In English the lax vowels came from short vowels in earlier forms in the language. I'm definitely glossing over a lot of complexity with that but I think the overall point is relatively solid.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala » 28 Jun 2019 09:17

Just a quick question. From the change in PIE of /penkʷe/ to Latin's /kʷinkʷe/, the initial /p/ has changed to /kʷ/ due to assimilation (or some kind of assonance). But what I was wondering is: what caused the vowel /e/ to change to /i/? Was is just the effect of the high tongue in /k/ in the /kʷ/ preceeding it? Or is it related to the 'n' that follows? Or perhaps because it's sandwhiched between two /k/-esque sounds?

I'd be grateful for any pointers.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 28 Jun 2019 11:39

Tuyono wrote:
27 Jun 2019 08:41
Creyeditor wrote:
26 Jun 2019 23:33
`baku' can also mean 'standard' or 'core'
Also this one! I can't really imagine how it got both meanings
I guess it had a more body-part related meaning (maybe akin to French `coeur' > `core') once and maybe went a similar route to `body(part)' > REFL grammaticalization
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 28 Jun 2019 11:42

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
27 Jun 2019 17:46
Vowel tone-to-length conversion may have been touched on before, but I don't feel it looking it up. Is a system deriving current vowel length from past vowel tone, such as [é è e → eː eˑ e], plausible?
Something else to think about: contour tones often phonetically extend the duration of their vowels. So you could also do *ê *é *e → eː eˑ e or something.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 28 Jun 2019 11:58

holbuzvala wrote:
28 Jun 2019 09:17
Just a quick question. From the change in PIE of /penkʷe/ to Latin's /kʷinkʷe/, the initial /p/ has changed to /kʷ/ due to assimilation (or some kind of assonance). But what I was wondering is: what caused the vowel /e/ to change to /i/? Was is just the effect of the high tongue in /k/ in the /kʷ/ preceeding it? Or is it related to the 'n' that follows? Or perhaps because it's sandwhiched between two /k/-esque sounds?

I'd be grateful for any pointers.
According to the Wikipedia page on the history of Latin, [e] was raised to [i] in initial syllables before [ŋ].

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 28 Jun 2019 12:13

holbuzvala wrote:
28 Jun 2019 09:17
Just a quick question. From the change in PIE of /penkʷe/ to Latin's /kʷinkʷe/, the initial /p/ has changed to /kʷ/ due to assimilation (or some kind of assonance). But what I was wondering is: what caused the vowel /e/ to change to /i/? Was is just the effect of the high tongue in /k/ in the /kʷ/ preceeding it? Or is it related to the 'n' that follows? Or perhaps because it's sandwhiched between two /k/-esque sounds?

I'd be grateful for any pointers.
There exists a regular sound change e > i / _ŋ. In Latin, [ŋ] appears as an allophone of /n/ before velars and as an allophone of /g/ before /n/: the second one continues older clusters *kn and *gn, so one synchronic example of e > i / _ŋ is decet ~ dignus < *deknos. Funnily enough the corresponding back vowel sound change o > u / _ŋ doesn't appear to be regular [D;].

The assimilation of p ... kʷ > kʷ ... kʷ is also regular. Other examples I can think of are *perkʷus > quercus and *pekʷeti > coquit
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 30 Jun 2019 04:15

Tuyono wrote:
27 Jun 2019 08:41
Thank you all for the answers!
holbuzvala wrote:
26 Jun 2019 23:14

Classical Arabic has two reciprocal constructions I know of. One is to use the word 'some' ("ba3ḍ") /baʕdˤ/ twice, the first instance usually taking a plural pronoun suffix, and the second taking the definite article 'al'.

li-ba3ḍ-ihim al-ba3ḍ
for-other-3PL.M DEF-other
"For the other of them the other"
For each other.

The second thing Arabic does is to use a special reciprocal verb form (Form VI). If the root letters are 1-2-3, then the form looks like 'ta1ā2a3a'.

Kānū yatakātabūna
be.3PL.M.PST write.RECIP.3PL.M.PRS
"They were they are writing reciprocally"
They were writing to each other/ They were corresponding.
Hebrew uses the second strategy for some verbs,, including 'write', which is why I'm avoiding it (I want Źilaa Ruńu to be its own thing and not to relex too much), but I didn't know the first one.
a little relexing is okay, particularly if you're aware you're doing it. all nat- and con-langs have points in common with other nat- and con-langs; its okay.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 30 Jun 2019 04:50

Are there any languages that only allow consonant clusters at one place of articulation?

I'm imagining something like a language that has /m n ŋ p t k b d g/ and allows (C)(j)V syllables - but then all alveolar and velar /j/ clusters are palatalized to /ɲ c ɟ/, leaving only labials /mj pj bj/ as clusters. Diachronically it checks out, but the outcome somehow feels wrong. Any thoughts?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 30 Jun 2019 14:02

I agree. I think in that case /mj/, /pj/ and /bj/ would likely be reanalyzed as palatalized labials, because of the limited distribution of /j/: you'd have a larger phoneme inventory but CV syllables.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 30 Jun 2019 20:55

Hmong has just /pl,bl/ I think. Some langs have just /tr/.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nachtuil » 01 Jul 2019 17:27

Nachtuil wrote:
23 Jun 2019 17:38
I am currently playing around with a language with where /tʃ dʒ k/ go to [ʃ ʒ x] in word final position while /t d/ are unchanged in final coda. (The language lacks g and /p b/ don't go in coda). I'll probably keep doing it anyway but does anyone know of language that has word final lenition of only select obstruents? Usually lenition is word internal, or? It is something I've never really investigated deeply.
Edit: Would something like this kind of lenition occurring word internally for onsets that are not part stressed syllables be pretty realistic?
I'm still curious about this if anyone knows. :)

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