(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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holbuzvala
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala » 21 Aug 2019 22:55

@Ahzoh

Not sure if this helps, but in one of my langs I diachronically generated /ʝ ɣʷ/ like so:

/ɣiV ɣuV/ -> /ɣʲV ɣʷV/ -> /ʝV ɣʷV/

Might work without those final vowels.

So I have /tʰ/ which changes to /r̥/ when bounded by vowels or a word boundary. e.g.: /tʰatʰ/-> /r̥ar̥/, /atʰa/ -> /ar̥a/.

However, I am having trouble deciding what /tʰ/ should become when adjacent to other consonants, particularly stops and voiced sonorants. The current consonant inventory is as follows:

/p t k pʰ tʰ kʰ pʲ tʲ kʲ pʷ tʷ kʷ/
/s t͡s/
/m n ŋ/
/r l ɣ/

Any ideas? /pʰ/ becomes /f/ everywhere, so maybe /tʰ/ could become /s/ in clusters?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nortaneous » 24 Aug 2019 08:44

the only language I know of with *tʰ > r̥ is Nivkh, and Nivkh doesn't object at all to /r̥/ in clusters

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nloki » 25 Aug 2019 00:11

Are synthetic languages likely to evolve nominal classifiers?

For instance, telling apart the meanings of "word" and "concept" by means of those classifiers? Or is that just derivation? If so, are classifiers more characteristic of analytic languages?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 25 Aug 2019 01:04

Are palatalized/velarized aspirated consonants more correctly transcribed as [Cʰʲ, Cʰˠ] or [Cʲʰ, Cˠʰ]?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 25 Aug 2019 01:42

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
25 Aug 2019 01:04
Are palatalized/velarized aspirated consonants more correctly transcribed as [Cʰʲ, Cʰˠ] or [Cʲʰ, Cˠʰ]?
In my experience, [Cʲʰ, Cˠʰ].

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 25 Aug 2019 01:54

shimobaatar wrote:
25 Aug 2019 01:42
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
25 Aug 2019 01:04
Are palatalized/velarized aspirated consonants more correctly transcribed as [Cʰʲ, Cʰˠ] or [Cʲʰ, Cˠʰ]?
In my experience, [Cʲʰ, Cˠʰ].
That was very helpful. Thanks!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 25 Aug 2019 04:36

Painting with very broad strokes, could devoicing of nasals (cf. [mˠ → m̥ˠ]) or aspiration (cf. [pˠ → pˠʰ]) be classified under lenition, or do I have to come use other markers for those changes? Currently, my main language uses Gaelic's old dot above diacritic to mark all forms of mutation that could be read as lenition.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala » 25 Aug 2019 09:58

the only language I know of with *tʰ > r̥ is Nivkh, and Nivkh doesn't object at all to /r̥/ in clusters
True, true. That's helpful, Nort, so thanks. Gives me thoughts.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala » 25 Aug 2019 09:59

Anyone know a good/reliable resource for finding the 1000/1500/2000 most common words in Modern Standard Arabic?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Evni Öpiu-sä » 25 Aug 2019 13:35

My conscript is composed of short lines in squares. In every square, there are twenty positions where it can be or not be a short line (six horizontally, six vertically, and eight diagonally). This means that there are total of 2^20=1,048,576 possible symbols.

So my question is: what are the easiest ways to type this script with my computer?

Edit: I found a solution to this problem.
Last edited by Evni Öpiu-sä on 26 Aug 2019 16:16, edited 1 time in total.
:fin: - C2
:eng: - ranges from A2 to B2
:swe: - ranges from A1 to A2

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ser » 25 Aug 2019 15:53

holbuzvala wrote:
25 Aug 2019 09:59
Anyone know a good/reliable resource for finding the 1000/1500/2000 most common words in Modern Standard Arabic?
I don't, and it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out it doesn't exist.

However, I'd say you could have a look at these vocabulary lists of common Standard Arabic words just as well (not ordered by commonality):
https://arabic.desert-sky.net/index.html

I love that all principal parts of verbs are provided, as well as noun plurals and odd genders, so you don't have to painfully look them up for every word (unlike other Arabic vocab wordlists).

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 25 Aug 2019 18:05

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
25 Aug 2019 04:36
Painting with very broad strokes, could devoicing of nasals (cf. [mˠ → m̥ˠ]) or aspiration (cf. [pˠ → pˠʰ]) be classified under lenition, or do I have to come use other markers for those changes? Currently, my main language uses Gaelic's old dot above diacritic to mark all forms of mutation that could be read as lenition.
This sounds more like fortition to me.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Reyzadren » 25 Aug 2019 23:50

holbuzvala wrote:
25 Aug 2019 09:59
Anyone know a good/reliable resource for finding the 1000/1500/2000 most common words in Modern Standard Arabic?
Would this 5000 Most Used Arabic Words from Routledge Frequency Dictionary help?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 26 Aug 2019 01:04

Creyeditor wrote:
25 Aug 2019 18:05
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
25 Aug 2019 04:36
Painting with very broad strokes, could devoicing of nasals (cf. [mˠ → m̥ˠ]) or aspiration (cf. [pˠ → pˠʰ]) be classified under lenition, or do I have to come use other markers for those changes? Currently, my main language uses Gaelic's old dot above diacritic to mark all forms of mutation that could be read as lenition.
This sounds more like fortition to me.
I should've included the language's major Gaelic inspiration in that post. After a bit of research while making the changes, I found out that [mˠ → m̥ˠ] is desonorization and, therefor, lenition. I'm tempted to count [pˠ → pˠʰ] and its ilk as lenition as well due to how Gaelic's* <c → ch> is seen by modern linguists. The changes the led to this were eclipses of <h> (cf. <h → ph> [x, ç → pˠ, pʲ]) and h restoration (cf. <ph → ṗ> [pˠ, pʲ → pˠʰ, pʲʰ]).
Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on 26 Aug 2019 15:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala » 26 Aug 2019 14:10

@Ser, Reyzadren

Both very helpful. Thanks!

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 26 Aug 2019 22:40

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
26 Aug 2019 01:04
Creyeditor wrote:
25 Aug 2019 18:05
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
25 Aug 2019 04:36
Painting with very broad strokes, could devoicing of nasals (cf. [mˠ → m̥ˠ]) or aspiration (cf. [pˠ → pˠʰ]) be classified under lenition, or do I have to come use other markers for those changes? Currently, my main language uses Gaelic's old dot above diacritic to mark all forms of mutation that could be read as lenition.
This sounds more like fortition to me.
I should've included the language's major Gaelic inspiration in that post. After a bit of research while making the changes, I found out that [mˠ → m̥ˠ] is desonorization and, therefor, lenition. I'm tempted to count [pˠ → pˠʰ] and its ilk as lenition as well due to how Gaelic's* <c → ch> is seen by modern linguists. The changes the led to this were eclipses of <h> (cf. <h → ph> [x, ç → pˠ, pʲ]) and h restoration (cf. <ph → ṗ> [pˠ, pʲ → pˠʰ, pʲʰ]).
I've decided to lenite these into fricatives/affricates. Is [sˠʰ → ħ] plausible?

Can fricative consonants coexist with approximants at the same POA? For example, Imperial Creole contrasts voiceless labiodental fricatives with voiceless/voiced labiodental approximants and voiced palatal/velar fricative/approximant consonant ([ʝ̞]) pairs.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 27 Aug 2019 14:14

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
26 Aug 2019 22:40
I've decided to lenite these into fricatives/affricates. Is [sˠʰ → ħ] plausible?

Can fricative consonants coexist with approximants at the same POA? For example, Imperial Creole contrasts voiceless labiodental fricatives with voiceless/voiced labiodental approximants and voiced palatal/velar fricative/approximant consonant ([ʝ̞]) pairs.
The change [sˠʰ → ħ] looks very plausible to me. As for the other question, contrasting fricatives and approximants at the same POA does happen but it's usually not as extensive as in your language. For example, I think Dutch distinguishes /v/ and /ʋ/.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 28 Aug 2019 14:33

Thank for the help.

Is an alveolar rhotic flap-variant glide vowel more correctly transcribed [ɾ̆, ɾ̯, ɾ̯̆] or some other way? To avoid creating a completely new vowel symbol for their language's ambiguously-rounded glide vowel—IPA [ə̯], linguists of my setting's main language use a variant of the alveolar rhotic flap [ɾ] for the sound. I flirted with a reversed alveolar rhotic flap without descender (computer friendly: [ɿ]) before tentatively deciding on the current transcription.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 02 Sep 2019 15:57

Omzinesý wrote:
14 Aug 2019 22:35
I'm wondering subject properties of chain verb constructions. In (1), come and give share the subject and subject marking is straightforward, but in (2), the subject of die is the object of hit. How do languages with serial verbs mark it or should it just be understood from the context? I understand different languages do it differently but what strategies there are?

(1)
[ X ] [ [ come ] [ give Y ] ]
'X brought Y.'

(2)
[ X hit ( Y ] die )
'X killed Y.'

I think you might be getting clause-chaining mixed up with serial-verb constructions.
They’re not the same.
I also* made that mistake, so maybe it’s easy to make.
*(that is, I made that mistake. The word “also” is called for only if you made that mistake!)

Switch-reference marking is unnecessary and impossible in a serial-verb clause. It’s a single clause, it just has more than one verb. Typically they all have the same aspect, modality/mode/mood, polarity, tense, and voice; and all have the same subject. Frequently they are also required to all have the same valency. In the event they don’t all have the same subject, they usually all have the same object.

Switch-reference marking is necessary in clause-chains.

You’ll have an easier time finding information on-line about it if you know the right search-terms.

I wrote quite a bit about it, back in the day, on this board, and That Other Board; but maybe some of it has been purged.

Here’s some Google hits.
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Wikipedia › wiki › Switch-reference
Web results
Switch-reference - Wikipedia
The basic distinction made by a switch-reference system is whether the following clause has the same subject (SS) or a different subject (DS). That is known as canonical switch-reference.
GitHub.io › io › papers › thesisPDF
Clause Chaining, Switch Reference and Coordination - Rafael Nonato
by R Nonato · 2014 · Cited by 34 · Related articles
Feb 7, 2014 · elsewhere as clause chaining is actually asymmetric clausal coordination. The special properties ... cent conjuncts have the same or different subjects (switch-reference marking). Important evidence .
GitHub.io › io › doo10chainPDF
Exploring Clause Chaining
by RA Dooley · 2010 · Cited by 18 · Related articles
Mbyá Guarani and many other chaining languages have markers of SWITCH REFERENCE, although chaining ... In Kanite switch reference, 'same subject' is zero while 'different subject' is -ke, and clauses a) - f ...
Semantic Scholar › pdfs › ...PDF
On Case Concord: the Syntax of Switch-reference Clauses - Semantic Scholar
by J Camacho · Cited by 42 · Related articles
ject, but triggers same subject marking on the SR clause, or it may be the case that an experiencer argument that ..... possible to have another SR clause as the reference clause, yielding a chain of SR clauses the last of ...
https://books.google.com › books
The Sino-Tibetan Languages
Randy J. LaPolla, Graham Thurgood · 2006 · Foreign Language Study
7 CLAUSE CHAINS AND SWITCH REFERENCE Clause chains are central to the structure of Kham sentences. ... are marked with varying degrees of inflection depending on whether they are 'same-subject' or 'different- ...
https://books.google.com › books
The Manambu Language of East Sepik, Papua New Guinea
Alexandra Aikhenvald · 2008 · Language Arts & Disciplines
Examples 17.4, T2.4–5, and T2.13–18 illustrate lengthy clause chains where the subject change is marked with switch-reference-sensitive suffixes. If a clause marked as same subject is followed by another clause also ...
https://books.google.com › books
Topic and Discourse Structure in West Greenlandic Agreement ...
Anna Berge · 2011 · Language Arts & Disciplines
In clause chains, switch-reference marking is found on the dependent, nonfinal clauses. ... reference: a form is restricted if it can have only same or different subject reference, and open if it can have either. Languages ...
FrontiersIn.org › research-topics › a...
Web results
Acquisition of Clause Chaining | Frontiers Research Topic
This marking, known as switch-reference, requires the speaker to know in advance what the subject of the upcoming clause will be. ... Some languages have multiple converb forms that denote different temporal or aspectual relationships between clauses in the chain.
Dartmouth College › journals › article
Switch-attention (aka switch-reference) in South-American temporal clauses: facilitating oral transmission - Dartmouth College Library Publishing Project
Switch-reference (henceforthSR) marking systems are found in many parts of the world, and in many different forms ..... First, different-subject clauses can be marked for imperfective versus perfective aspect, same ...
KU › kuscholarworks › handlePDF
A Survey of Switch-Reference in North America - KU ScholarWorks - The University of Kansas
by A McKenzie · 2015 · Cited by 11 · Related articles
Dec 6, 2016 · Typically, that argument is the subject. If the clauses' subjects co-refer, SR appears in a value known as SS or “same-subject” marking. If they are dis- joint, SR appears as DS or “different-subject” ...
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 03 Sep 2019 02:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nachtuil » 03 Sep 2019 00:57

I want to have /ɸ/ to have [h] as an allophone and I'm trying to think of what makes the most sense. My vowel inventory is /i e a o/
I was thinking that /ɸ/ following /a/ may make sense since it is the most open vowel. Maybe between vowels only? I know Japanese has a similar allophonic relationship where [h] occurs after /i/ and [ɸ] after /u/ (Ie. Fukushima and Hiroshima) but I have no idea what is going on with that or why. /u/ seems to be active also with /t/ turning it to [ts]. Regardless, I believe the motivation between the alteration has to do with the sonority of ɸ and h. I certainly don't consider myself to have a solid understanding of Japanese phonology so if someone is familiar feel free to chime in.

At any rate, would /ɸ/ -> [h] / _a (because it's open so the lips are slightly further apart) make sense? Could it also work for /o/ ?
Also open to other ideas.

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