(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Reyzadren » 22 Dec 2019 22:53

Nloki wrote:
22 Dec 2019 12:35
I'm mixing up the differences between trigger and austronesian alignments I think.
The following code lines is what I have in mind for it:

Code: Select all

                          TOPIC
  VOICES      Animate                Inanimate
    ↓     Human Non-Human
Agent       -∅-     -ak-             Whatever
Patient
Instrument
Lative
Locative
Adessive
Essive
Comitative
etc.
For example in the sentence Hazë burkhta dakhtsvi "The elder hit my dog" I wouldn't provide any affix for the agent voice since the topical agent itself is a human noun, rather in Burxin hasta njahaksu, "My dog bit the elder" in the same voice, the infix -ak- is added for the sake of emphasizing that the dog, a non-human, has bitten the elder, a human. And I don't even know what to do with inanimates...

I have no clear idea of how is it supposed to work, what should I provide affixation for and what not, so I'm quite confused. When I read that Ayeri swaps affixes between case and voice slots for its trigger alignment system I didn't mean it to be this intrincate... Help please.
The trigger alignment is the Austronesian alignment. They are the same thing.

There are 2 problems with your description:

1. You are merely using animacy as a gender/class, not as a split. This is a simple thing to resolve, but the bigger problem is number 2.

2. Your sentences are highlighting a focus system, not the trigger alignment. Focuses are independent of triggers, but triggers can take some focusing properties. If that's all your affix is doing, then it's usually not a voice/trigger affix (yet).
[Additional self-check: Can you not use the infix to not emphasise the dog?]

However, this is only the initial assessment. If you provide more examples, perhaps your lang really does exhibit animacy splits with the Austronesian alignment.

Ways to move forward: If you like how animacy works as you showed, then it's not a split; Otherwise, change it to a split. Also, decide if you want to use a focus system or not; If yes, ensure that your focuses are also triggers, because if not then this lang wouldn't have the trigger alignment.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 22 Dec 2019 23:44

Vlürch wrote:
22 Dec 2019 17:30
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 13:49
In general, are the plain bilabial trills /ʙ̥ ʙ/ placed with fricatives, with liquids, or by themselves in a phonology?
If you have other trills and have them as liquids, then I don't see why the bilabial ones wouldn't be as well, considering they're trills. If you have other trills separately as "trills", then I think it'd make most sense to have the bilabial ones grouped together with them. If you don't have any other trills but do have lateral approximants or whatever, then maybe it'd make more sense to have the bilabial trills separately as "trills", but I think that's a matter of preference and/or analysis.
Okay. It looks like they'll end up on their own in my case because they're the only simple trills when they emerge from the bilabial-alveolar trilled affricates, /p͡r̥ b͡r/. Old Common has a full series of trilled affricates, /p͡r̥ b͡r t͡r̥ d͡r k͡r̥ g͡r/. Currently, I have all of them ending up as non-sibilants, /ɸ β θ̠ ð̠ x ɣ/, in New Common. If I swap to the trills, are /k͡r̥ g͡r/ more likely to remain as is, become /x ɣ/ unconditionally, or become /ʀ̥ ʀ/ unconditionally—leading to [ʀ̥ɛ], etc. because of the velar trill's impossibility?
Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on 24 Dec 2019 03:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ » 24 Dec 2019 03:09

I'd say that /kr gr/ are likely to become /ʀ̥ ʀ/ if /pr br/ become /ʙ̥ ʙ/. However, you can then have /ʀ̥ ʀ/ > /χ ʁ/ > /x ɣ/ unconditionally without affecting /ʙ̥ ʙ/.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 24 Dec 2019 14:11

Okay.

Currently, I have <CiuV> [PwV]/[PʷV], with [P] as a palatal consonant, in the setting's Galactic language. Is [PwV]/[PʷV] acceptable, or does in have to be [CɥV]/[CᶣV]? The final realization will depend o my allowance of [C-infix-G].
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 25 Dec 2019 00:57

Yes

How might the numeral words influence each other phonetically/phonemically?:

https://www.frathwiki.com/Vrkhazhian#Numerals
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 25 Dec 2019 15:05

nudiowain [ŋu.ʑoˈwä.iŋ] doesn't use capital letters, instead marking proper nouns with the prefixed particle nu- [ŋu-]. While [​i u] usually yield [j w] before vowels, nu blocks the change, like other particles. Is this morphological or purely phonotactical?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 25 Dec 2019 19:14

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
25 Dec 2019 15:05
nudiowain [ŋu.ʑoˈwä.iŋ] doesn't use capital letters, instead marking proper nouns with the prefixed particle nu- [ŋu-]. While [​i u] usually yield [j w] before vowels, nu blocks the change, like other particles. Is this morphological or purely phonotactical?
If all particles block the change, I'd say it has more to do with morphology.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 25 Dec 2019 20:37

Ahzoh wrote:
25 Dec 2019 00:57
Yes

How might the numeral words influence each other phonetically/phonemically?:

https://www.frathwiki.com/Vrkhazhian#Numerals
Are the stem forms for the cardinal forms the forms that numbers appear in when counting? That seems to be thing that most influenced numbers affecting each other in Indo-European languages (adjacent numbers seem to have had the most affect on each other, which some have suggested it happened as the result of counting more than anything else).
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 26 Dec 2019 00:50

sangi39 wrote:
25 Dec 2019 20:37
Are the stem forms for the cardinal forms the forms that numbers appear in when counting? That seems to be thing that most influenced numbers affecting each other in Indo-European languages (adjacent numbers seem to have had the most affect on each other, which some have suggested it happened as the result of counting more than anything else).
Well they would be said with the gender vowel like -a, so tibsa, śiṭṭa, maǧla, ṣebāsa, etc.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ser » 26 Dec 2019 01:17

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 23:44
Vlürch wrote:
22 Dec 2019 17:30
[...]
[...]
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote:
24 Dec 2019 03:09
I'd say that /kr gr/ are likely to become /ʀ̥ ʀ/ if /pr br/ become /ʙ̥ ʙ/. However, you can then have /ʀ̥ ʀ/ > /χ ʁ/ > /x ɣ/ unconditionally without affecting /ʙ̥ ʙ/.
Regarding linguistic bilabial trills, here is an interesting post from someone on the ZBB:
Xephyr wrote:I will say that I do not believe the reports of this-and-that South American language having /t̪ʙ̥/ as a phoneme. I'm not saying that as a joke, either: like "haha that is so outrageous, anadew amirite?". I am being serious: I literally do not believe it. Napoleon Chagnon in one of his books talks about an entire village making up fake and lewd-sounding names for each member of their tribe as a prank to pull on Chagnon, and sustaining that prank for months without anyone ever breaking character. Methinks the [t̪ʙ̥] business is another example of Amazonian tribal humor.
I don't know what merit there could be for this in Amazonian languages other than Pirahã where phonemic bilabial trills have been reported, but it'd plausibly explain why Daniel Everett reported hearing /ʙ/ in Pirahã only after several years had passed, about which he then said Pirahã people had hidden the sound from him out of embarrassment. Elsewhere, Everett mentions an anecdote where early on in his contact with the Pirahã, he overheard a meeting where some men where deciding what to do with him, a foreign implant, whether they'd shoo him away or kill him (he allegedly proceeded to hide their weapons away while they were talking). Surely he would've heard some /ʙ/ in there?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 26 Dec 2019 01:33

Ahzoh wrote:
26 Dec 2019 00:50
sangi39 wrote:
25 Dec 2019 20:37
Are the stem forms for the cardinal forms the forms that numbers appear in when counting? That seems to be thing that most influenced numbers affecting each other in Indo-European languages (adjacent numbers seem to have had the most affect on each other, which some have suggested it happened as the result of counting more than anything else).
Well they would be said with the gender vowel -a, so tibsa, śiṭṭa, maǧla, ṣebāsa, etc.
Hmmmm, well, since the ordinals and fractionals are formed regularly, regardless of whether there's a second vowel or not in the stem, I wonder how much rhythm and "rhyme" might play into how they affect each other (think sheep counting). I could see, for example, see maǧla becoming maǧāla (gaining the long medial vowel under influence from ṣebāsa) which would give you a rhythm of S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S from 1 to 4. kurēya could similarly become kurya under influence from tiǧta, and switching back to the S-S S-S part of the rhythm scheme, which if extended further could have ḳerda pick up a long medial to become ḳerāda, filling out a second S-L-S S-L-S section.

That gets a bit trickier with 9 through to 12... yasīna could become yasna if the pattern continued (and since it's followed by ʾañla that's not much of a stretch), but then the question becomes what to do with lamma after pisāwa. Oo, other than I guess a sort of "clipped" rhythm of S-L-S S-S.

So you'd get:

tibsa, śiṭṭa, maǧāla, ṣebāsa
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
kurya, tiǧta, menāpa, ḳerāda
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
yasna, ʾañla, pisāwa, lamma
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-S)

While I think something like the initial vowels in 3 and 4 irregularly becoming identical (so meǧāla, ṣebāsa or maǧāla, ṣabāsa) might be less likely as a sort of "next step", I'm not sure how implausible it is either, so ending up with something like:

tibsa, śiṭṭa, meǧāla, ṣebāsa
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
kurya, tuǧta, menāpa, ḳerāda
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
yasna, ʾañla, pesāwa, lamma
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-S)

which gives you this sort of assonance in the S-S vowels that also groups them into three different sets based on vowel (which you sort of get in sheep counting, but that's more heavily based on rhyme, such that 1 and 2 form one rhyming couple, 3 and 4 make a section rhymic couplet, 5 is distinct, 6 and 7 form a third rhymic couplet, 8 and 9 a fourth one, and then 10 is distinct).

Anyway, that's where I'm on that at the moment, but I think I've relied too heavily on sheep counting, lol. IIRC, that took the "numbers influencing each other" thing further than you might expect because they were used almost exclusively for counting (so they weren't used, for example, to modify nouns, unlike in Welsh where numbers haven't developed in nearly the same way because they were still being used in other environments). And then, of course, there's Arabic, where its ordinals and fractionals are formed regularly, but the cardinals don't seem to have affected each other all that much.

I suspect, that in terms of "small" influences, like the kind seen in, say, Russian or Latin, there might not be any at all in Vrkhazhian. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of similarities between adjacent forms (they all share a common ending anyway, so you won't see things like "novem" under influence of "decem") and the initials are all different enough from number to number (so nothing like "pinque" to "quinque" or "nevjat'" to devjat').
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 26 Dec 2019 01:39

Okay, Thanks.

I introduced phonemic high, mid, and low tones into Galactic Standard because I didn't like how fast words gained syllables with eleven phonemes. As stated above, [​i u] yielded [j w] preceding vowels before I did so unless a particle was involved. Is it plausible for just the mid-tone [ī ū] to yield [j w], or do all tones have to change that way?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 26 Dec 2019 04:52

sangi39 wrote:
26 Dec 2019 01:33
tibsa, śiṭṭa, meǧāla, ṣebāsa
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
kurya, tuǧta, menāpa, ḳerāda
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
yasna, ʾañla, pesāwa, lamma
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-S)
I like this, but I wonder if stress accent dependent on syllable weight would affect things too? Because stress would be on the last heavy or superheavy syllable.
Anyway, that's where I'm on that at the moment, but I think I've relied too heavily on sheep counting, lol. IIRC, that took the "numbers influencing each other" thing further than you might expect because they were used almost exclusively for counting
Well, the Vrkhazhians are pastorialists, so maybe they do a lot of herd counting. Also given that Vrkhazhian is prone to analogizing ablaut/has a triconsonantal root system, maybe the numerals develop a "template".
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 26 Dec 2019 17:36

Given the contact between the North Germanic and Celtic languages, does it seem probable to make a North Germanic language with initial consonant mutation? Or is this too unlikely given that it was mostly North Germanic languages that influenced the Celtic ones?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 26 Dec 2019 23:27

All4Ɇn wrote:
26 Dec 2019 17:36
Given the contact between the North Germanic and Celtic languages, does it seem probable to make a North Germanic language with initial consonant mutation? Or is this too unlikely given that it was mostly North Germanic languages that influenced the Celtic ones?
I have tried this.

I agree that Old Norse would be the one spreading its features than the other way around. For example, the Gaelic spoken in northern Scotland did converge with Norse through its phonology. I believe preaspiration was gained through Norse influence, and Scots Gaelic devoiced its consonants (c.f. Icelandic.) But you might know this already. On the other hand the influence Gaelic had on the Norse spoken there seems to have been limited to loanwords (cf Faroese tarvur < tarbh). I cant pinpoint anything in Faroese or Norn that is evidence of Gaelic influence. Lenition maybe? But even the lenition did not cross word boundaries.

Best bet is to turn Norse from a superstrate to a substrate. Then you might get initial mutations and the like.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 28 Dec 2019 07:01

Ælfwine wrote:
26 Dec 2019 23:27
All4Ɇn wrote:
26 Dec 2019 17:36
Given the contact between the North Germanic and Celtic languages, does it seem probable to make a North Germanic language with initial consonant mutation? Or is this too unlikely given that it was mostly North Germanic languages that influenced the Celtic ones?
I have tried this.

I agree that Old Norse would be the one spreading its features than the other way around. For example, the Gaelic spoken in northern Scotland did converge with Norse through its phonology. I believe preaspiration was gained through Norse influence, and Scots Gaelic devoiced its consonants (c.f. Icelandic.) But you might know this already. On the other hand the influence Gaelic had on the Norse spoken there seems to have been limited to loanwords (cf Faroese tarvur < tarbh). I cant pinpoint anything in Faroese or Norn that is evidence of Gaelic influence. Lenition maybe? But even the lenition did not cross word boundaries.

Best bet is to turn Norse from a superstrate to a substrate. Then you might get initial mutations and the like.
While external influence would be one factor affecting the likelihood of developing initial mutations, I don't think initial mutations need to be externally motivated. There are a number of Romance varieties with initial consonant mutations (including Standard Italian, with its raddoppiamento sintattico) and all of them are clearly the product of internal developments, not external influence. And there's nothing early Romance had that Old Norse didn't have, in terms of potential sources of mutation. In fact, Old Norse had a richer case system than early-ish Romance, which could make development of initial mutations even more likely.

Worldwide, initial mutations are sporadic, but not confined to one area, and not rare enough to be truly unusual. In fact, when you consider that they're just another possibility for stem alternations, which are not unusual at all, especially in IE, it's really no surprise to see them develop.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 28 Dec 2019 07:15

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
28 Dec 2019 07:01
Ælfwine wrote:
26 Dec 2019 23:27
All4Ɇn wrote:
26 Dec 2019 17:36
Given the contact between the North Germanic and Celtic languages, does it seem probable to make a North Germanic language with initial consonant mutation? Or is this too unlikely given that it was mostly North Germanic languages that influenced the Celtic ones?
I have tried this.

I agree that Old Norse would be the one spreading its features than the other way around. For example, the Gaelic spoken in northern Scotland did converge with Norse through its phonology. I believe preaspiration was gained through Norse influence, and Scots Gaelic devoiced its consonants (c.f. Icelandic.) But you might know this already. On the other hand the influence Gaelic had on the Norse spoken there seems to have been limited to loanwords (cf Faroese tarvur < tarbh). I cant pinpoint anything in Faroese or Norn that is evidence of Gaelic influence. Lenition maybe? But even the lenition did not cross word boundaries.

Best bet is to turn Norse from a superstrate to a substrate. Then you might get initial mutations and the like.
While external influence would be one factor affecting the likelihood of developing initial mutations, I don't think initial mutations need to be externally motivated. There are a number of Romance varieties with initial consonant mutations (including Standard Italian, with its raddoppiamento sintattico) and all of them are clearly the product of internal developments, not external influence. And there's nothing early Romance had that Old Norse didn't have, in terms of potential sources of mutation. In fact, Old Norse had a richer case system than early-ish Romance, which could make development of initial mutations even more likely.

Worldwide, initial mutations are sporadic, but not confined to one area, and not rare enough to be truly unusual. In fact, when you consider that they're just another possibility for stem alternations, which are not unusual at all, especially in IE, it's really no surprise to see them develop.
It's worth pointing out that Germanic has a strong initial stress accent, however. In Celtic and Romance words without a strong initial stress, I can see mutation happen quite easily, but this might be a limiting factor for Germanic languages.

Then again stress might not play any roll in the development of mutations, this is just speculation from my part. All you need is lenition.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 28 Dec 2019 17:59

Yea, Irish has had a Germanic-like initial stress (complete with reduction and loss of unstressed vowels) before, during and after the period it developed initial mutations.

All you need for initial mutations is for word-medial sound changes to apply to phrases instead of individual words. This probably means entire phrases behaving like one phonological word, as in French. In fact, French liaison, which synchronically prefixes a consonant (usually /z/ or /t/) to vowel-inital words in some grammatical contexts, is very similar to a type of Irish initial mutation.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ixals » 28 Dec 2019 21:36

Is /θ/ > /ts/ possible?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 28 Dec 2019 22:34

Standard Jêêuwan has initial mutation after [ʔ] descending from coda [ħ, l, ɾ]. Vowel-initial words take the glottal stop prothetically. Is it more natural for all three former codas to have the same effect or for [ħ] to have one effect on consonant-initial words while [l, ɾ] have another, and what are potential outcomes in either situation? Additionally, former coda [l, ɾ] lengthen all precedent vowels in a compensatory process.
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