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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Posted: 15 Oct 2019 20:23
by yangfiretiger121
All4Ɇn wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:02
Is it at all possible that a language currently spoken in Europe could lack the phoneme /j/ except in the case of loanwords? I'm having a hard time finding any languages which lack the sound.
It's more than possible due to being an accurate description of German, which has /ʝ/ rather than /j/ natively.

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Posted: 15 Oct 2019 21:05
by All4Ɇn
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
15 Oct 2019 20:23
It's more than possible due to being an accurate description of German, which has /ʝ/ rather than /j/ natively.
Well I meant more in the sense of there not being any allophonic sounds for it. That definitely does get me closer to what I'm looking for though so thanks [:)]

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Posted: 16 Oct 2019 01:46
by Ser
All4Ɇn wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:02
Is it at all possible that a language currently spoken in Europe could lack the phoneme /j/ except in the case of loanwords? I'm having a hard time finding any languages which lack the sound.
Well, Spanish doesn't have /j/ (although it does have [j] as a glide following another consonant in the onset, e.g. /pie/ [pje] 'foot', /ˈkambio/ [ˈkambjo] 'change'). It doesn't have /w/ either (although, again, it has [w] in Cw onsets, e.g. /ˈmueɾ.te/ [ˈmweɾte]).

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Posted: 16 Oct 2019 09:19
by cedh
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
15 Oct 2019 20:23
All4Ɇn wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:02
Is it at all possible that a language currently spoken in Europe could lack the phoneme /j/ except in the case of loanwords? I'm having a hard time finding any languages which lack the sound.
It's more than possible due to being an accurate description of German, which has /ʝ/ rather than /j/ natively.
:?:
AFAIK (and I'm a native speaker), German does have /j/ but not /ʝ/, not even phonetic [ʝ] in most dialects.

However, German has /v/ but no /w/, but quite a number of people still use [w] in loanwords from English, even in semi-nativized ones (e.g. the computer software names Windows and Word are frequently pronounced as [ˈwɪndoːs] and [wœːt ~ wœɐ̯t] respectively), so there's at least a parallel to what All4Ɇn is asking about.

Creyeditor wrote:
14 Oct 2019 22:09
cedh wrote:
14 Oct 2019 11:50
Quick notation question:
[...]
So I'm looking for a way to indicate a triggering environment for vowel nasality that is (a) easy to understand, (b) does not clash with glossing for reduplication, and (c) can be used at both affix and clitic boundaries. Any suggestions?
[...]
For the second line, I usually just do the usual affix and clitic boundary, only sometimes an abbreviation of the morphophonological process. But I could also imagine using capital letters for the processes, similar to archiphonemes. It would look something like this.

Code: Select all

kearõru
kearo\N=ru
big  \=become.FG
'grow big'
You could then list this affix as \N=ru
Nice, I quite like this idea! Thanks for the suggestion (also to Vlürch and Shimo, of course)!

I think I'm going to settle on something like =ᴺru btw, which looks a bit more tidy to me.

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Posted: 16 Oct 2019 10:43
by yangfiretiger121
cedh wrote:
16 Oct 2019 09:19
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
15 Oct 2019 20:23
All4Ɇn wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:02
Is it at all possible that a language currently spoken in Europe could lack the phoneme /j/ except in the case of loanwords? I'm having a hard time finding any languages which lack the sound.
It's more than possible due to being an accurate description of German, which has /ʝ/ rather than /j/ natively.
:?:
AFAIK (and I'm a native speaker), German does have /j/ but not /ʝ/, not even phonetic [ʝ] in most dialects.

However, German has /v/ but no /w/, but quite a number of people still use [w] in loanwords from English, even in semi-nativized ones (e.g. the computer software names Windows and Word are frequently pronounced as [ˈwɪndoːs] and [wœːt ~ wœɐ̯t] respectively), so there's at least a parallel to what All4Ɇn is asking about.
Wikipedia describes it as variable /j~ʝ/, actually—even using /j/ is the non-sibilant fricative row.

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Posted: 16 Oct 2019 11:13
by shimobaatar
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
16 Oct 2019 10:43
cedh wrote:
16 Oct 2019 09:19
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
15 Oct 2019 20:23
All4Ɇn wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:02
Is it at all possible that a language currently spoken in Europe could lack the phoneme /j/ except in the case of loanwords? I'm having a hard time finding any languages which lack the sound.
It's more than possible due to being an accurate description of German, which has /ʝ/ rather than /j/ natively.
:?:
AFAIK (and I'm a native speaker), German does have /j/ but not /ʝ/, not even phonetic [ʝ] in most dialects.

However, German has /v/ but no /w/, but quite a number of people still use [w] in loanwords from English, even in semi-nativized ones (e.g. the computer software names Windows and Word are frequently pronounced as [ˈwɪndoːs] and [wœːt ~ wœɐ̯t] respectively), so there's at least a parallel to what All4Ɇn is asking about.
Wikipedia describes it as variable /j~ʝ/, actually—even using /j/ is the non-sibilant fricative row.
Wikipedia also says that "There is no complete agreement about the nature of /j/".