(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Jampot911 » 06 Jul 2018 20:19

This is just a quick idea that popped into my head, and I'm not even sure if I'm planning on using this idea, but I
was wondering if "voiceless harmony" is something that exists, or seems feasible. As in, a system similar to Guarani, except an entire syllable must be voiceless (with a voiceless vowel too) or voiced (with all voiced vowels and consonants). Thanks!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 07 Jul 2018 01:15

I can't think of any Natlang examples, but if palatal harmony can exist I don't see why not voicing harmony.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by WeepingElf » 07 Jul 2018 18:38

There is something like that reconstructed for PIE. Voiceless stops do not occur in roots together with breathy-voiced stops, a pattern that becomes a voicing harmony rule under the glottalic hypothesis (other phonemes than pulmonic stops have no voicing distinction, and are transparent). However, this holds only for roots; suffixes may be disharmonious (e.g. *bhrou-tom, the PIE antecedent of English bread). Well, there is an idea for something to pursue in an IE conlang!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » 09 Jul 2018 19:10

Does anybody know of a good free online paper on Proto-Indo-Iranian?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 10 Jul 2018 03:50

I'm trying to see if the following table for Kovur division of "persons" or "personal space", makes sense, especially in terms of terminology:

Image

Unlike in human languages, the Kovur rely on the division of the space around them into "near the speaker" and "far from the speaker", with different languages extending exactly where this boundary is to different points, either including or excluding the listener within the "space" of the speaker.

This division of space splits both nouns and verbs into two classes (marked in bold in the table), which take different markings (marked in non-bold italics in the table). Verbs can either take a subject which is nearer to the speaker, or further away, but is cannot take both. Similarly, a noun can either be possessed by someone nearer the speaker, or further away, but not by both (similar in a way to alienability in some human languages).

So, for example, in a language displaying a proximity division for verbs, a proximal verb will mark the speaker as the subject as proximate and the listener as the subject as obviative. Similarly, an "other" subject nearer to the speaker will be marked on a distal verb or proximate and an "other" subject further away will be marked as obviative, using the same affixes as for the speaker and listener.

In a language displaying an egophoricity (1) division for nouns, an egophoric noun possessed by the speaker will be marked as proximate. Similarly, a non-egophoric noun possessed by the listener will be marked as or proximate and a non-egophoric noun possessed by someone else will be marked as obviative, using the same proximate suffix in both instances.

What actions, states, objects and concepts fall into each class varies from language to language, but, for example, a "hand" is almost always a proximal or egophoric noun and "to give" almost always a proximal or egophoric verb, while "mountain" is almost always distal or non-egophoric noun and "to take" is almost always a distal or non-egophoric verb. So in a language displaying proximity, "hand-PROX" would almost definitely mean "my hand" not "his hand" and "take-DIST" will almost definitely mean "he over there takes".
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 10 Jul 2018 12:48

What is your obviative obviating?
I think you might be using that term in a manner so different from any of its non-linguistic and natlinguistic uses that it amounts to straight-out misuse, rather than redefinition.
I could be wrong.
Could you look up the non linguistic meanings of “obviate”, and the origins of its linguistic use?
Then explain how/why you’re use of it here is similar?
Maybe then I’d understand.
Or, maybe you’d decide you should use some other term?

(The use you are putting it to here seems to fit “distal” much much better than “obviative”.)
(I see you are already using “distal”.
Maybe you want three terms; {proximal, medial, distal} or {proximal, distal, further distal} or {proximal, distal 1, distal 2} or something like that. )

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 12 Jul 2018 05:39

Does a language with polypersonal agreement need to mark plurality in them to be naturalistic? Are there attested languages with polypersonal agreement that mark only person and not number?
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Post by eldin raigmore » 12 Jul 2018 08:54

(Short answers: 1) No, it doesn’t have to; 2) Yes, it is attested.)

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen examples of languages with polypersonal agreement in which, for instance,
the verbs agree with (maybe) the person and number of the subject and the person and gender of the object, but not the gender of the subject or not the number of the object.
In other words the set of features in which it agrees with the subject, may be different than the set of features in which it agrees with the object.

Sorry I can’t remember the exact example or the exact reference.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 12 Jul 2018 14:39

eldin raigmore wrote:
10 Jul 2018 12:48
What is your obviative obviating?
I think you might be using that term in a manner so different from any of its non-linguistic and natlinguistic uses that it amounts to straight-out misuse, rather than redefinition.
I could be wrong.
Could you look up the non linguistic meanings of “obviate”, and the origins of its linguistic use?
Then explain how/why you’re use of it here is similar?
Maybe then I’d understand.
Or, maybe you’d decide you should use some other term?

(The use you are putting it to here seems to fit “distal” much much better than “obviative”.)
(I see you are already using “distal”.
Maybe you want three terms; {proximal, medial, distal} or {proximal, distal, further distal} or {proximal, distal 1, distal 2} or something like that. )
Hmmm, good point. I'd forgotten where "obviative" actually came from.

I'm looking to use distinct terms, though, which is an issue, and no system uses more than a "close" vs. "far" distinctions in terms of marking (in the "proximity" distinction, for example, the speaker and the nearby "other" take the same markings on verbs and on possessed nouns). "Distal", "proximal", "egophoric" and "non-egophoric" refer to classes of verbs, and, by extension, classes of nouns, so I suppose I could re-use the terms "distal" and "proximal" to refer to the affixes they take, but ideally I'm trying to avoid that situation, using distinct terminology that relates to that "near" vs. "far" distinction. I guess basically, then, I'm looking for another pair of terms for "near" and "far".

I had originally used three terms, but it didn't convey the situation in Kovur languages properly. There is no "medial" or "more distal" place within the system. Nouns and verbs are marked for possessors and subjects which are either close to the speaker or far from the speaker, but cannot be marked for both.

For example "hand" is a proximal noun or an egophoric noun in most languages, so when it appears as "hand-PROX" and "hand-DIST" (which only appears in languages displaying proximity) it means "my hand" and "your hand". "House", on the other hand, is frequently a distal noun or a non-egophoric noun in most languages, so when it appears as "house-PROX" and "house-DIST" it means "someone's house" or "the house of someone far away" in proximity languages and "your house" and "someone's house" in egophoricity languages. To say "his hand" or "my house", you'd need to should that possession in some more complex way, but so far, for "house" and for "hand", the "PROX" and "DIST" affixes are the same, but differ in meaning depending on the class the noun or verb belongs to.

Something like this:

Image

And then trying to find distinct terminology for the -PROX and -DIST marking.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ixals » 12 Jul 2018 21:04

Can breathy, creaky etc. vowels affect the preceding consonant in some way?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Jul 2018 21:08

Breathy voice can get associated with the preceding consonant, like it is in Hindi. Creaky voice is basically glottalization and can therefore migrate to some consonants.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 12 Jul 2018 21:33

@Sangi39: So maybe what you’re obviating is using the term “distal” with two different meanings?
Or something.

OTOH you have “egophoricity 1” and “egophoricity 2”. I would think “distal 1” and “distal 2” would be even easier.

Some natlangs are traditionally described as having “genitive 1” and “genitive 2”, or “gerund 1” and “gerund 2”, or “infinitive 1” and “infinitive 2”, vel cetera.

HTH?

Or: make one pair “proximal vs distal” and the other “local vs remote” or “present vs absent” or “near vs far” or some such.
Your terms don’t have to be Greekish or Latinate or Sanskrit or German, or even Hebrew or Arabic or Russian or Georgian.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 12 Jul 2018 21:56

eldin raigmore wrote:
12 Jul 2018 21:33
@Sangi39: So maybe what you’re obviating is using the term “distal” with two different meanings?
Or something.

OTOH you have “egophoricity 1” and “egophoricity 2”. I would think “distal 1” and “distal 2” would be even easier.

Some natlangs are traditionally described as having “genitive 1” and “genitive 2”, or “gerund 1” and “gerund 2”, or “infinitive 1” and “infinitive 2”, vel cetera.

HTH?

Or: make one pair “proximal vs distal” and the other “local vs remote” or “present vs absent” or “near vs far” or some such.
Your terms don’t have to be Greekish or Latinate or Sanskrit or German, or even Hebrew or Arabic or Russian or Georgian.
I was okay with "egophoricity (1)" and "egophoricity (2)" because they're more or less describing subsets of roughly the same noun/verb class system, while "distal (1)" and "distal (2)" would describe two different phenomena (a noun/verb class vs. marking).

But thank you so much, I hadn't considered "local" vs. "remote". Honestly, I'd completely forgotten the word "local" was even, well, a world [:P]

That leaves me with:

Image

Which I'm pretty happy with [:)] I just need to go back and rework everything I've written here so far, incorporating the above table, while also rewriting what I was going to post before I tried to come up with that table [:P]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark » 13 Jul 2018 13:39

In a language with a five vowel system of /a e i o u/, what are some possible evolutions/monophthongizations of rising diphthongs? Please also include intermediate stages, if possible; if the intermediate stage begins with /j/, I could use it to decide if a previous consonant is palatalized. Thanks!

ai > ? (e ?)
ei > ? (i ?)
oi > ?
ui > ?

au > ? (o ?)
eu > ?
iu > ?
ou > ? (u ?)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 13 Jul 2018 21:52

felipesnark wrote:
13 Jul 2018 13:39
In a language with a five vowel system of /a e i o u/, what are some possible evolutions/monophthongizations of rising diphthongs? Please also include intermediate stages, if possible; if the intermediate stage begins with /j/, I could use it to decide if a previous consonant is palatalized. Thanks!
Here's my idea; the basic idea is that low + high become lax mid and mid + high become lax high vowels. Rounded vowels plus front vowels yield front rounded vowels.


ai > æɪ > ɛe > ɛː > ɛ
ei > ɪi > ɪː > ɪ
oi > oy > øy > øʏ > ʏː > ʏ
au > ɑ̝ʊ > ʌo > ɔː > ɛ
eu > ey > øy > øʏ > ʏː > ʏ
iu > ʲyu > ʲyː > ʲy
ou > oʊ > ʊː > ʊ

PS: Also, most of these are falling diphthongs,so I provide a set of rising ones with ideas below: Basically the same as above, plus labialization and palatalization

ia > ɪæ > ʲeɛ > ʲɛː > ʲɛ
ie > ie > ʲɪi > ʲɪː > ʲɪ
io > ʲyo > ʲyø > ʲʏø > ʲʏː > ʲʏ

ua > ʊɑ̝ > ʷoʌ > ʷɔː > ʷɔ
ue > ʷye > ʷyø > ʷʏø > ʷʏː > ʷʏ
uo > ʊo > ʷʊː > ʷʊ
ui > uy > ʷyː > ʷy
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark » 13 Jul 2018 23:14

Creyeditor wrote:
13 Jul 2018 21:52
felipesnark wrote:
13 Jul 2018 13:39
In a language with a five vowel system of /a e i o u/, what are some possible evolutions/monophthongizations of rising diphthongs? Please also include intermediate stages, if possible; if the intermediate stage begins with /j/, I could use it to decide if a previous consonant is palatalized. Thanks!
Here's my idea; the basic idea is that low + high become lax mid and mid + high become lax high vowels. Rounded vowels plus front vowels yield front rounded vowels.


ai > æɪ > ɛe > ɛː > ɛ
ei > ɪi > ɪː > ɪ
oi > oy > øy > øʏ > ʏː > ʏ
au > ɑ̝ʊ > ʌo > ɔː > ɛ
eu > ey > øy > øʏ > ʏː > ʏ
iu > ʲyu > ʲyː > ʲy
ou > oʊ > ʊː > ʊ

PS: Also, most of these are falling diphthongs,so I provide a set of rising ones with ideas below: Basically the same as above, plus labialization and palatalization

ia > ɪæ > ʲeɛ > ʲɛː > ʲɛ
ie > ie > ʲɪi > ʲɪː > ʲɪ
io > ʲyo > ʲyø > ʲʏø > ʲʏː > ʲʏ

ua > ʊɑ̝ > ʷoʌ > ʷɔː > ʷɔ
ue > ʷye > ʷyø > ʷʏø > ʷʏː > ʷʏ
uo > ʊo > ʷʊː > ʷʊ
ui > uy > ʷyː > ʷy
Thanks for the ideas! I want the final vowel system of this conlang to be /a e i o u/, so I would probably tense and un-round the vowels you have suggested here. Another thing I’m considering is that once the vowels get to the long monophthong stage you show above, some could break into new diphthongs. Of course, I would need to know some possibilities for vowel breaking, haha.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 14 Jul 2018 01:28

My question is very similar to the one that was just answered. However, Aʻatun's vowel system is /ɑ ᴇ i ⱺ ʉ/ (/ᴇ ⱺ/ being true mid vowels), and they simplified vowels by harmony/sound similarity (/ɪ>i/, etc.). What are some possible evolutions/monophthongizations for rising and falling diphthongs in Aʻatun, including intermediate steps?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 14 Jul 2018 12:56

I would say it's the same with minor differences:
/ɑ/ = /a/
<ᴇ> /e̞/ = /e/
<ⱺ>/o̞/=/o/
/ʉ/ = /u/
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark » 14 Jul 2018 13:27

Based on ideas from Creyeditor, I came up with this system of vowel alternations that will form the basis of my TAM system. Does this seem plausible?:

Past indicative (vowel + /u/)
a > o
e > i
i > je
o > u
u > wo
present subjunctive (vowel + /i/ or /ia/)
a > e
e > ja
i > ja
o > i
u > wi
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 14 Jul 2018 14:10

Is /ɑi>ɑ/ or /ɑi>i/ plausible? If so, how, including intermediate steps? Same for /ɑʉ>ɑ/, /ⱺi>i/, and /ⱺi>ⱺ/?
Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on 14 Jul 2018 14:18, edited 1 time in total.
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