The Landau Core Vocabulary

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Khemehekis
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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 08 Mar 2015 05:49

Lao Kou wrote:half-siblings? widower?
I should probably add "widower". Widowers will become nearly as common as widows as technology goes on.

Come to think of it, I should probably add "orphan" too.

Half-siblings, I'm less sure about.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by eldin raigmore » 08 Mar 2015 21:33

(The previous three posts by Khemehekis and Lao Kou are relevant to this one, but I'm not quoting them -- don't know which parts to quote.)

I think you may be confusing the English terms "step-sibling" and "half-sibling".

EGO's stepsister or stepbrother has no biological parents in common with EGO.

When EGO's parent marries ALTER's parent, that makes EGO's parent become ALTER's step-parent, and makes ALTER's parent become EGO's step-parent. It also makes each of EGO and ALTER become the other's step-sibling.

If their parents' then have another child, that child will be a half-sibling to both EGO and ALTER.

So at maximum specificity, I think you might (or might not) need terms for the following siblings, half-siblings, and step-siblings (I'm omitting siblings-in-law):
older full brother (both parents same)
older full sister (both parents same)
younger full brother (both parents same)
younger full sister (both parents same)

half-brother (same father different mother)
half-sister (same father different mother)
half-brother (same mother different father)
half-sister (same mother different father)

*stepbrother (father's wife's son)
*stepbrother (mother's husband's son)
*stepsister (father's wife's sondaughter)
*stepsister (mother's husband's sondaughter)

*I'm not sure you'd need to distinguish between father's wife's child and mother's husband's child, unless you had combined polyandry (a woman can have more than one husband) and polygyny (a man can have more than one wife). It could be serial; that is, perhaps a woman can't have two husbands at the same time, but she can divorce one and marry another while her ex-husband is still alive, and/or same for a man mutatis mutandis ceteris parabus.
Divorce and remarriage is the phenomenon generating most family relationships in modern America. It doesn't sound like you'd want that for your conculture, at least not until the most recent times.

In a society where a parent of either sex might well become a widow or widower while young, and it might happen twice not infrequently, it could be that a middle child could have one half-sibling with the same mother but a different father, and simultaneously another half-sibling with the same father but a different mother, even if everyone was monogamous and faithful. That was common in the American West for over a century, from before 1800 until after 1900; but it isn't now.

Notice it's "half-brother (different mother)", not "step-brother (different mother)".
And it's "step-brother (father's wife's son)", not "step-brother (different mother)".

Anyway, thank you very much for re-posting those two sections. (I thought I remembered that you had two sections, but I couldn't remember the name of one of the sections and couldn't remember where to find it.) You cleared up my questions about your questions (if that makes sense).

And, to answer your original question:
I still don't know. They both look equally good to me. I suspect you'll have all the concepts in both of those People sub-lists, eventually, somewhere in your language's(s') vocabulary(ies); the question will be which of them belong as Core vocabulary.

If a palaeoperson meets a stranger, the first question one subconsciously asks-and-answers about them might be; Are they too old to reproduce, or too young to reproduce, or of reproductive age? The second might be; Are they my sex or the opposite sex?
But odds are they'll answer both at the same time. They'll put the person into one of four classes just about on sight:
* Opposite sex and right age to mate with.
* Same sex and right age to compete with for mates.
* Too old to mate with and too old to compete.
* Too young to mate with and too young to compete.

Other near-instantaneous immediate categorizations would probably depend on culture, and not be constant across the whole species.

OTOH when a palaeoperson meets a relative, s/he is likely to have a different priority of categories.
They'd care about "this is my parent", "this is my offspring", "this is my mate", "this is my sibling", before they'd care about "this person is male" or "this person is female".
And they might care more (or sooner) about "this relative is male" vs "this relative is female", than about "this relative is my sex" vs "this relative is the opposite sex".
So your "People" section and your "Family" section might not look much alike after all.

Just my opinions; maybe they'll inspire you and maybe they won't. I don't have evidence for any of it.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 15 Feb 2016 06:13, edited 1 time in total.

Khemehekis
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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 10 Feb 2016 08:44

Some important news. The "Basic 150" list in Part I of the LCV has been expanded into 200 words.

left (opposite of right)
right (opposite of left)
good (in quality)
bad (in quality)
white
black
short (opposite of long)
long
wide
thin
thick
small
big
round
heavy
cold (water)
warm (water)
hot (water)
low (in altitude)
high (in altitude)
deep
dry
wet
soft
hard
slow
fast
new
old (opposite of new)
straight
top (of mountain, hill)
bottom (of mountain, hill)
front (of house)
back (of house)
to play (a game)
to meet (for the first time)
to think (cogitate)
to know (information)
to know (a person)
to love (agape)
to love (romantically, eros)
to speak, to talk
to say
to ask (a question)
to thank
to sing
to build
to take (pick up and carry)
to give
to pull
to push
to touch
to blow (breathe out)
to throw
to break (glass, plate)
to cut (with knife)
to dig
to sit, to be sitting
to stand, to be standing
to lie (on back)
to fall
to cry
to laugh
to close one’s eyes
to open one’s eyes
to breathe
to eat (of people)
to drink
to sleep
to see (with the eyes)
to hear
to feel (with the sense of touch)
smooth (of surface)
rough (of surface)
to wash (body parts)
to go
to come (towards third party)
to turn (change direction)
to climb (a tree)
to climb (a mountain, hill)
to dance
to fly
to run
to swim
to walk
to bite (of mammal)
to hurt (injure)
to kick
to kill (person)
to scratch (skin)
to fight (physically, intransitive)
world
sun
star
moon
sky
wind
rain
cloud
water
ice
air
light (natural)
fire
earth (ground, dirt)
wood
dust
rock, stone
salt
sand
soil, dirt
mountain
sea (ocean)
river
lake
to flow (move in a stream)
morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.)
day, daytime
evening
night
spring
summer
autumn, fall
winter
iron
silver
gold
to freeze (transitive)
to burn (transitive)
food
to cook
meat
fruit (for eating)
home, house
music
wall (of a building)
clothes
leaf
seed
stick
wing
body
hair (mass)
head
face
eye
nose
mouth
tooth
tongue
ear
neck
arm
hand
finger
nail
knee
foot
skin
heart
blood
tear
egg (as reproductive device)
life (experience of living)
to live (be alive)
mind (center of thoughts and emotions)
to grow (intransitive)
to die
happy
sad
afraid
angry
plant
flower
tree
mother
father
older sister (of a sister)
older sister (of a brother)
younger sister (of a sister)
younger sister (of a brother)
older brother (of a sister)
older brother (of a brother)
younger brother (of a sister)
younger brother (of a brother)
child (reciprocal of parent)
daughter (of a mother)
daughter (of a father)
son (of a mother)
son (of a father)
person/people
baby
child
girl (female child)
boy (male child)
girl (young woman)
boy (young man)
woman
man (as distinguished from woman)
friend

Now it's comparable to some Swadesh lists.
Last edited by Khemehekis on 27 Feb 2016 06:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Tanni
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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 10 Feb 2016 09:56

Khemehekis wrote:The "Basic 150" list in Part I of the LCV has been expanded into 200 words.
left (opposite of right) -- at the same side where the heart of a human is located
right (opposite of left) -- at the other side of where the heart of a human is located

cold (water)
warm (water)
hot (water)

Why constraining that to water? There is cold, warm, hot weather, dishes, etc., too

top (of mountain, hill)
bottom (of mountain, hill)
front (of house)
back (of house)

In a list of basic 150 or 200 words, I wouldn't expect that much of constrainted meanings.

to play (a game)

Where is ''to play (an instrument)''?

to meet (for the first time)
to cut (with knife)
to wash (body parts)

Is that just for explanation of the words or do you think there should be other words for ''to meet for the second, thrid, etc. times''? To cut with some other instrument or to wash your car?

morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.) -- Time roughly between the end of the night and noon.

The time range of what people consider morning can differ amongst world population and also depends on personal view.

older sister (of a sister)
older sister (of a brother)
younger sister (of a sister)
younger sister (of a brother)
older brother (of a sister)
older brother (of a brother)
younger brother (of a sister)
younger brother (of a brother)

daughter (of a mother)
daughter (of a father)
son (of a mother)
son (of a father)

There are surely languages which make such distinctions, so it is disputable if all this words belong into a list of basic words.
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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 17 Feb 2016 07:05

A clarification on the Landau Core Vocabulary: The LCV, in its full form, splits, rather than lumps: it includes the distinctions that real languages make. The alternatives would be (a) to be very lumped (similar to Qatama); (b) to copy the semantic divisions of English; or (c) to have its own peculiar scheme of dividing semantic space (similar to Rick's ULD). I like the splitting method the best. If someone relexed the LCV item for item while creating a conlang, he or she would have an extreme splitlang. Of course, I'm not encouraging people to do that, but I want to make people aware of common possibilities for distinguishing their words. While imagination, common sense, and knowledge of natlangs can allow conlangers to figure out what entries to lump together in their conlang, it might not be obvious to a conlanger that many languages distinguish cold weather, cold water, a cold day, cold food and/or being cold.

The Basic 200 list is a subset of the LCV -- words from Part IV. Specific, splitty entries are copied from Part IV into Part I, which is where the distinctions come from. A language might very well have only 170 words after starting with the Basic 200.

I also tried to confine the Basic 200 list to concepts that would be expected to be found in all anthropic cultures. Hence why there's to entry for "to wash (a car)" in the Basic 200, because your conpeople might not have invented cars yet. Words for modern and Earth-specific concepts go in Parts IV and V.

A note on "morning": my section Time in Part IV reads:

dawn
morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.)*
morning (10:00 a.m. to noon)
day, daytime*
noontime (about 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.)
afternoon
evening*
night*
midnight (12:00 midnight)
a.m., morning (midnight to noon)
noon (12:00 noon)
p.m. (noon to midnight)

I have both "morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.)" and "morning (10:00 a.m. to noon)" here. Such languages as Chinese make this distinction.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 58,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

Tanni
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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by Tanni » 17 Feb 2016 10:40

Khemehekis wrote: A note on "morning": my section Time in Part IV reads:

dawn
morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.)*
morning (10:00 a.m. to noon)
day, daytime*
noontime (about 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.)
afternoon
evening*
night*
midnight (12:00 midnight)
a.m., morning (midnight to noon)
noon (12:00 noon)
p.m. (noon to midnight)

I have both "morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.)" and "morning (10:00 a.m. to noon)" here. Such languages as Chinese make this distinction.
early morning = morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.)*
morning (10:00 a.m. to noon)

Or, for more symmetry:

early morning = morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.)*
late morning = morning (10:00 a.m. to noon)

Dawn (and dusk) do not really belong in a clock-scale driven sceme of daytimes: Dawn can be within night, if night is considered to be the time between midnight to morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.) or within morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.) depending on the time of the year. Similar with dusk.

So a possible split would be ''clock-scale-driven'' (or ''absolute'') and ''natural-phenomena-driven'' (or ''relative'') scemes of daytime, depending on the culture and/or the purpose of the time measurement.
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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 21 Feb 2016 08:31

I'd say that only the last four are clock-driven:

midnight (12:00 midnight)
a.m., morning (midnight to noon)
noon (12:00 noon)
p.m. (noon to midnight)

I do mention clock-times in distinguishing the two words for "morning", but that's only because that was the best way to define them. Maybe I could change
morning (6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.)*
morning (10:00 a.m. to noon)
to
morning (early morning)*
morning (late morning)
?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 58,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 26 Nov 2016 08:09

New category in the LCV: Genetics and Biochemistry.

These words go in Part IV:

gene
DNA
chromosome

These words go in Part V:

to inherit (genetically)
dominant
recessive
mutation
mutant
gene pool
genome
genotype
phenotype
RNA
amino acid
nucleotide base
adenine
guanine
cytosine
thymine
uracil
X chromosome
Y chromosome
genetic engineering
GMO

If I ever create a Landau Extended Vocabulary, it will include these words:

biochemical
codon
allele
mRNA
double helix
autosome
heterosome, sex chromosome
W chromosome
Z chromosome
the names of the different amino acids
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 58,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

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Re: The Landau Core Vocabulary

Post by Khemehekis » 09 Feb 2019 06:50

Dictionaries I used to compile the Landau Core Vocabulary:

Larousse Pocket German Dictionary

Barron's German-English Dictionary

Larousse Concise French-English English-French Dictionary

Webster's New World Concise Spanish Dictionary

Langenscheidt Pocket Dictionary Portuguese

Collins Portuguese Dictionary

Collins Italian Concise Dictionary

Barron's Italian-English Dictionary

Oxford Arabic Dictionary

Langenscheidt Pocket Dictionary Mandarin Chinese

Collins Chinese Dictionary

Random House Japanese-English English-Japanese Dictionary

Langenscheidt Pocket Dictionary Korean

Langenscheidt Pocket Dictionary Vietnamese

Does anyone have any recommendations of up-to-date dictionaries in other languages that distinguish the meanings of foreign-language translations for an English word (e.g. telling you that zaggan is used for "sail" when you are the captain and ziggan is used for "sail" when you are a passenger)?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 58,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

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