What did you accomplish today?

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Egerius
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Egerius » 06 May 2015 10:20

shimobaatar wrote:@Egerius: I like the idea of church services being "open" at certain points in history. Any reasons in particular why the practice declined in the Middle Ages? And I'm afraid I can't suggest anything for your Gothic project, but I like the words you have so far, especially the one meaning "to be".
A (relatively) high rate of literacy (30% in the rural areas) and familiarity with the words of the holy scripture would be the reason for a discussion during mass in Late Antiquity.
During the Middle Ages, the literacy rate would drop, combined with a church-internal change of policies, this would make the mass stiff and unresponsive.

More will come, at some point. This is only a phonetic transcription of existing Gothic words, according to this book, the consonant inventory listed here and Wikipedia.

Gestaltist, your temple-story is cool - reminds me of Christmas in Poland during the early/mid-2000s.

Chagen, your Pazmat-descendant looks interesting. Sanskrit mixed with Russian suffixes, I'd say.
Languages of Rodentèrra: Buonavallese, Saselvan Argemontese; Wīlandisċ Taulkeisch; More on the road.
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elemtilas
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by elemtilas » 06 May 2015 14:08

gestaltist wrote:
Uy. Perilous places, mountains! Only a fool would go looking for trouble there. Bonky with magic and infested with all kinds of strange beasts and people. Until they get old and wear down and become mellow and sociable and grasscrowned. Much nicer folks then, mountains. Might even hear a story or two from them, if you're quiet like and listen real hard...
Yes, they do seem to have a mind of their own, in a way. It doesn’t suffice to listen, though. You have to also be able to understand. And you have to have a lot of patience, and a lot of time. They are in no hurry to speak.
Yes indeed! You have the right of it on that account!

After a long, long silence, a voice was heard. Old sounding it was. Gravelly. Like a rock slide, it beginning somewhere in the heights, careening raucously over the precipice and cascading into the deeper valleys below, ending with a cavernous roar.

“You know, we didn’t used to have all this, this greenery all over the place! It was just us, all sharp crags and steep cliffs. Bare rock and clear sky above and the bitter cold water at our feet.”

“Grass.”

“What?”

“Grass! The greenery that’s all over. ‘S called ‘grass’.”

“Oh. Yeah? Yeah, that. Grass.”

The first speaker was called Amath and he was old and bent, gnarled with age and bald on top. He was older than old and his age had long since lost the count of years. His neighbour was Gahalt, similarly old and just as bent, equally gnarled with age and as bald on top as his friend Amath. They were practically twins. Both were covered with green grass and deep woodlands on their lower verges. Amath and Gahalt was what they were called by Daine and Men, and they were hills, low and round with very gentle, rolling slopes. Gahalt sat just to the south of Amath, while Amath sat right at the water’s edge to the north, his toes dangling in the bitter cold water.

They were Mountains, old and haggard. Ancient by far, even according to the reckoning of their kind, worn down by the gnawing teeth of wind and merciless pummeling of rain to little more than nubbins, leaving them little more than ghosts of their younger, loftier selves. If Mountains had a pension scheme, “Amath” would have been the first name on the first list of benefits recipients. ...


Nope. You'll never get much of a story out of a younger mountain. Stark and standoffish are they, inhospitable and pitiless. They don't even take note of the small weak creatures of flesh and wood scurrying about, here today gone in a minute and a half.
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If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by elemtilas » 06 May 2015 14:24

gestaltist wrote:
This I like. I knew you'd tell us some good stories!
Thanks! I myself wasn’t so certain of that.
Just keep it coming, and in delectable quantities! None of this hoity-toity finger food nonsense. Heap our plates up til we can't take no more!
Interesting. I think you’ll find that what is going on here is a rather different experience, though. There is a reason some people prefer not to attend the ceremony.
Hm. Something dark going on there? I shall indeed be interested to find out what happens next!
I want to follow up on this story so badly. Grai Vidár is a place I like very much. In fact, it pre-dates the World of Twin Suns, as does all of Arann and Shayin. There is so much groundwork that needs to be done before I can satiate your curiosity, though... The World of Twin Suns is reshaping Arann, and I have to wait for a while to see what the result will be.
Okay. We'll wait patiently. Mind you, if you keep us waiting too long, we'll come thumping on your door, demanding the three usuals: a welcome, hospitality and a good story of WoTS!
Yep. This is an indirect consequence of the Nature of Things (let’s call it that - 'cause is it really magic if it flows through the very bones of the world?).
A nice way of putting it, actually. Though I would argue that tis indeed magic, dwimmery, for all it flows through the bones of the World.
As you know, most weapons in the World are bronze, iron being considered far too precious to waste on mere swords. Those smiths who do make iron weapons (but not those who make bronze ones) have a similar practice, though they use people -- strong, powerful slaves or prisoners -- to impart their blood-strength to the sword's blade. There's a kind of magic in the blood that the iron finds quite attracted to, but that bronze is indifferent to.
I didn’t know that. Is iron rarer in the World than it is on Earth? Or does it find other uses?
Large concentrated surface deposits I think must be rarer -- there are places where iron is mined but it's not as commonly found as *here*. The World is definitely in a perpetual bronze age. Such iron as comes out of the earth is put to better uses: tools, infrastructure. A good tyre rim and an iron chisel are far more valuable than any sword of iron that's liable to be lost in the heat of battle. The best iron still comes out of Sandhia, where it's called wotaz and it is from such sources that the rails of the great caravanways are made. Some iron is gotten from more locally from the Arnal Mountains, but the Dwarrows charge a pretty penny for the (admittedly very high quality) tools they make.

I'm sure there are other possibly religious or cultural reasons that favor bronze over iron. I know most Daine won't touch the stuff -- the concentrated metal leaves a kind of burn mark on the skin and hurts the most sensitive of them.

For now, let’s say its a family secret. Also, the sword is no longer tame now.
I see -- yes, smiths, magic and trade secrets. It makes sense now!
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If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by gestaltist » 06 May 2015 14:57

Egerius wrote: Gestaltist, your temple-story is cool - reminds me of Christmas in Poland during the early/mid-2000s.
That’s... and odd comparison. Do you mean the midnight Christmas Eve mass?
elemtilas wrote: Nope. You'll never get much of a story out of a younger mountain. Stark and standoffish are they, inhospitable and pitiless. They don't even take note of the small weak creatures of flesh and wood scurrying about, here today gone in a minute and a half.
Nice one, that story. Alright then. Let’s talk some more about mountains, then:

The water spring was in the unlikeliest of places. A small pond of hot, bubbly water surrounded by granite rock and swathes of dirty ice. The young man fell to his knees, exhausted but relieved. „She did speak to me“ - he shouted - or rather, he tried to. His throat was so parched and his face so stiff from the cold, that only a creak escaped his lips.

At that moment, he didn’t think. He laid down his thoughts at the feet of the glacier. They were no good on this journey conceived of dreams and folly. He disrobed and entered the pond. Warmth surrounded his body like a blanket. The water massaged him gently, untying the knots in his muscles, soothing the desperation in his heart, lulling him to sleep. Soon enough, his limp body was floating, as was his spirit.

Later on, he was never able to put into words what he experienced up there. When asked, he only smiled faintly. „The Mountain spoke to you, didn’t it?“ - they would inevitably inquire. And he wouldn’t deny.

They knew he was spoken to because he came back a different person. His movements became slow, steady and secure. He was still the scrawny boy from before, and yet he seemed big and strong in a way they couldn’t explain; almost like his body became too small for him. They often found him lost in thought - he would be sitting there and wouldn’t notice them at all; and he wouldn’t return to them for hours. Once so talkative, he would now respond with a single word, or a gesture - and inevitably hit the proverbial nail on the head.

He was what they needed. Their secure rock in time of war and turmoil. Their gift. Their Mountain.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by shimobaatar » 07 May 2015 05:46

Love the extended mountain story so far, gestaltist! [:D]

I was bored, so, on a whim, I took the nine definition-less example words from my latest post in the Project Ypsilon thread, and applied the appropriate sound changes (which I now realize need one or two adjustments) to them to get the words' expected descendants in Proto-Western-Ypsilon.

ggoarein /ˈgːoɐ̯ɻeɪ̯n/ > /gːoɐ̯ˈɻeːn/ ggoareen
yatššxoọmuq /ˈjat͡ʃːxoɔ̯muʔ/ > /jat͡ʃːʜ̩aːˈmu/ yačšḥaamu
iθŋāoppḷhār /ˈiθŋaɔ̯ːpːl̩haːɻ/ > /isŋoːpːɪˈʜaːɻ/ isŋooppɪhaar

hdžimvvókłar /hd͡ʒimˈβːokʟaɻ/ > /ʢ̩dʑɨmβːoˈklˠaɻ/ ɦ̣dźɨmββokłar
ssēoggṛ́fṇməs /sːeɔ̯ːˈgːɻ̩ɸn̩məs/ > /sːeɔ̯gːəˈɸɪ̃məs/ sseoggəɸɪ̃məs
wiottṃðə̄́qřōin /wiɔ̯tːm̩ˈðəːʔroɪ̯ːn/ > /woɨtːũvaːʡ̩ˈroɪ̯ːn/ woɨttũvaaq̇řoîn

žžoəlín /ʒːoɜ̯lˈin/ > /ʒːʉˈəlin/ žžʉəlin
ðkxmadduašúq /ðk͡xmadːuɐ̯ʃˈuʔ/ > /s̪kxmədːuˈaʃu/ ṩkxmədduašu
bvorimunár /b͡βoɻimunˈaɻ/ > /bβəˈɻimunaɻ/ bβərimunar

It's meant to be the most phonologically conservative daughter language, and these are only phonetic changes, but in all honesty, a very small and not very practical part of me is still disappointed that the daughter forms came out so similar to the proto forms. So, based on some currently pretty poorly-defined ideas for what sound changes will take place over the next 4,000-5,000 or so years after Proto-Western-Ypsilon:

ggoareen /gːoɐ̯ˈɻeːn/ > /ˈʑøɽe/ jöṛe
yačšḥaamu /jat͡ʃːʜ̩aːˈmu/ > /ˈjaʃamo/ iaşamo
isŋooppɪhaar /isŋoːpːɪˈʜaːɻ/ > /ezˈnøfexæ/ eznöfeḥä

ɦ̣dźɨmββokłar /ʢ̩dʑɨmβːoˈklˠaɻ/ > /aʑdemˈvogla/ ajdemvogla
sseoggəɸɪ̃məs /sːeɔ̯gːəˈɸɪ̃məs/ > /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/ ḥeojem
woɨttũvaaq̇řoîn /woɨtːũvaːʡ̩ˈroɪ̯ːn/ > /voθoˈvaæ̯roɪ̯/ vothovaäroe

žžʉəlin /ʒːʉˈəlin/ > /ˈʃare/ şare
ṩkxmədduašu /s̪kxmədːuˈaʃu/ > /skamoˈvaʃo/ skamovaşo
bβərimunar /bβəˈɻimunaɻ/ > /boˈɽimna/ boṛimna

These forms will almost certainly change as I actually set down lists of sound changes, and as I figure out other kinds of diachronic changes. This was still fun, though. Based on the amount of time separating Proto-Western-Ypsilon and these hypothetical forms, these would be words in Zendlektek/Netonese, my "first conlang" that I'm trying to eventually remake diachronically.

The orthography I've used for Zendlektek/Netonese above is pretty phonemic, but I'm not sure if that will end up being the orthography I actually use, or if I'll go for something deeper. For example, the Proto-Ypsilon dative plural form of ssēoggṛ́fṇməs /sːeɔ̯ːˈgːɻ̩ɸn̩məs/ is ssēoggṛ́fṇmūvə̄ /sːeɔ̯ːˈgːɻ̩ɸn̩muːβəː/. According to regular sound changes alone, those become sseoggəɸɪ̃məs /sːeɔ̯gːəˈɸɪ̃məs/ and sseoggəɸɪ̃muuβəə /sːeɔ̯gːəˈɸɪ̃muːβəː/, which, far in the future, may become (phonemically) /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/ and /xeɔ̯ʑeˈmygø/.

In the phonemic orthography, these two forms would be written as ḥeojem /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/ ḥeojemygö /xeɔ̯ʑeˈmygø/, but, in a potential deep orthography I came up with, they could instead be written as shéoghehémes /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/ and shéoghehémúweh /xeɔ̯ʑeˈmygø/. Those spellings kind of look Goidelic to someone like me who's largely unfamiliar with Irish, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by DesEsseintes » 07 May 2015 13:52

shimobaatar wrote:in a potential deep orthography I came up with, they could instead be written as shéoghehémes /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/ and shéoghehémúweh /xeɔ̯ʑeˈmygø/. Those spellings kind of look Goidelic to someone like me who's largely unfamiliar with Irish, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx.
I very much like the deep orthography. There's a touch of Cheyenne there... Two words: Use. It. :mrgreen:

As for my own accomplishment, a bit of diachronic experimenting revealed a very surprising result which I'm seriously considering implementing; the Hííenununóóoþa cognate to the Limestone -awa -ewe plurals seems to be -ío with allomorphs in -éo -ówo after n s ł h and a less common variant in -íío that causes palatalisation. How this plural pattern interacts with the plurals in -tseh -eh remains to be seen. They may simply be different noun classes.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by shimobaatar » 07 May 2015 23:10

DesEsseintes wrote:As for my own accomplishment, a bit of diachronic experimenting revealed a very surprising result which I'm seriously considering implementing; the Hííenununóóoþa cognate to the Limestone -awa -ewe plurals seems to be -ío with allomorphs in -éo -ówo after n s ł h and a less common variant in -íío that causes palatalisation. How this plural pattern interacts with the plurals in -tseh -eh remains to be seen. They may simply be different noun classes.
I like the looks of those suffixes!
DesEsseintes wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:in a potential deep orthography I came up with, they could instead be written as shéoghehémes /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/ and shéoghehémúweh /xeɔ̯ʑeˈmygø/. Those spellings kind of look Goidelic to someone like me who's largely unfamiliar with Irish, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx.
I very much like the deep orthography. There's a touch of Cheyenne there... Two words: Use. It. :mrgreen:
Thank you! These are the nine words, with the deep orthography, phonemic orthography, and "modern" pronunciation:

ghoaréin ~ jöṛe - /ˈʑøɽe/
yačhámu ~ iaşamo - /ˈjaʃamo/
isngouphéhár ~ eznöfeḥä - /ezˈnøfexæ/

ajdemwhoklar ~ ajdemvogla - /aʑdemˈvogla/
shéoghehémes ~ ḥeojem - /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/
woethováarroín ~ vothovaäroe - /voθoˈvaæ̯roɪ̯/

žwherrin ~ şare - /ˈʃare/
skamedwhašu ~ skamovaşo - /skamoˈvaʃo/
bwerimunar ~ boṛimna - /boˈɽimna/

Although I do quite like some of the deep spellings (particularly shéoghehémes and ghoaréin), I'm not so sure how I feel about them as a whole. Maybe I'm just not used to them? Anyway, it's certainly a possibility that I'll end up using a deeper orthography when the time comes to make that decision, if not for Zendlektek/Netonese, then perhaps for one of its closely related sister languages.

(From here on out, this was cross-posted in German here.)

Yesterday, I finally watched some of the LCC stream on Youtube. The part I watched was about the conlang Jovian and romlangs in general. I thought it was quite interesting, so, today, I tried using this website to write a sentence in Vulgar Latin… the key word being tried.

Ego volio fabulare bene in illa lingua romana de matres quando ego fabulo cun ti.
/'ego 'vɔljo fabʊ'lare 'bɛne ɪn 'ɪlla 'lɪŋgwa ro'mana de 'matres 'kwando 'ego fa'bʊlo 'kʊn ti/
"I want to speak the Roman mother-tongue well when I speak with you."

Then, after some sound changes and other such adjustments:

Vojo venne favorrare n'ej ringua rhomàn màtceże qan ti favurro.
/ˈvojo ˈvẽne favoˈraʁe nej ˈrĩŋwa ʁoˈmã ˈmat͡ːʃeðe kwã t͡ʃi faˈvuro/
"I want to speak the Roman mother-tongue well when I speak with you."

I'm still not sure what I'll do with this idea, if anything.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by DesEsseintes » 08 May 2015 14:18

More diachronic speculation today: Limestone sóssonıewe and Hííenununóóoþa hííþıchıo may be cognates.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by loglorn » 08 May 2015 14:25

DesEsseintes wrote:More diachronic speculation today: Limestone sóssonıewe and Hííenununóóoþa hííþıchıo may be cognates.
What would the sound changes of that be?
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by atman » 08 May 2015 14:26

I've finally polished up my Atlántika translation of the Lord's Prayer. It wasn't easy, not just because of the limitations of my conlang, but also because of the religious nature of the text, which requires special care.

Anyway I'm pretty impressed with the result: I think some lines flow really well, like "bazlèha sèhu recal, tlèma sèhu subanal", "ma dilhajmadi mas aji" and a few more.

Fatar mèhon, hus ornèsen xtèse
òrma Sèhu hajajdète
bazlèha Sèhu recal
tlèma Sèhu subanal
hòs òrnoyen hòxpri gajas yefe.
Katèbrion mèhon ròton
sèbron min zidi
que dieptas mèhon min luvi
hòs dieptrèse mèhon wati luvmin
que ma dilhajmadi mas aji
al kakoyex mas sòjdi
[Sèhu gòr ixtin bazlèha que durmis que duxa
Fatros que Cujo que Hajo Vnèmas
lun que aye que ajònajdi ajonèhon]
Aman.


Koiné version for comparison:

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·
ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου,·
ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.
[Ὅτι σοῦ ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα·
τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος·
νῦν καὶ ἀεὶ καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.]
Ἀμήν.
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Omzinesý » 08 May 2015 15:32

I added Vtayn to CALS, and found surprisingly that it's a very averege language, when it comes to measures used in the typology there.
The language is, by the way, written whith y nowadays, not Vtain anymore. I just saw I always pronounce its vowels back, so let them be back, then.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by loglorn » 08 May 2015 15:32

atman wrote:I've finally polished up my Atlántika translation of the Lord's Prayer. It wasn't easy, not just because of the limitations of my conlang, but also because of the religious nature of the text, which requires special care.

Anyway I'm pretty impressed with the result: I think some lines flow really well, like "bazlèha sèhu recal, tlèma sèhu subanal", "ma dilhajmadi mas aji" and a few more.

Fatar mèhon, hus ornèsen xtèse
òrma Sèhu hajajdète
bazlèha Sèhu recal
tlèma Sèhu subanal
hòs òrnoyen hòxpri gajas yefe.
Katèbrion mèhon ròton
sèbron min zidi
que dieptas mèhon min luvi
hòs dieptrèse mèhon wati luvmin
que ma dilhajmadi mas aji
al kakoyex mas sòjdi
[Sèhu gòr ixtin bazlèha que durmis que duxa
Fatros que Cujo que Hajo Vnèmas
lun que aye que ajònajdi ajonèhon]
Aman.


Koiné version for comparison:

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·
ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου,·
ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.
[Ὅτι σοῦ ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα·
τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος·
νῦν καὶ ἀεὶ καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.]
Ἀμήν.
What would be the IPA of the Atlántika one?
I'm curious as how its pronounced.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by DesEsseintes » 08 May 2015 15:48

loglorn wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:More diachronic speculation today: Limestone sóssonıewe and Hííenununóóoþa hííþıchıo may be cognates.
What would the sound changes of that be?
Well, I say "speculation" because I haven't really figured out any sound proper changes from Proto-Híí to Limestone and am almost treating Limestone as the protolanguage. Which means that eventually I'll have to go and change things. But I'm not gonna let that stop me. [B)]

The main changes at work that lead to the Hííenununóóoþa form are
o → i
a → o
s → h / #_
nj → t͡ʃ

The original plural form *-jawa went to -ewe due to vowel harmony. I'm thinking Proto-Híí *θ became ss in Limestone.

I'm hoping to get a post up in the Hííenununóóoþa thread soon on some of these changes.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by k1234567890y » 08 May 2015 17:30

DesEsseintes wrote:
loglorn wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:More diachronic speculation today: Limestone sóssonıewe and Hííenununóóoþa hííþıchıo may be cognates.
What would the sound changes of that be?
Well, I say "speculation" because I haven't really figured out any sound proper changes from Proto-Híí to Limestone and am almost treating Limestone as the protolanguage. Which means that eventually I'll have to go and change things. But I'm not gonna let that stop me. [B)]

The main changes at work that lead to the Hííenununóóoþa form are
o → i
a → o
s → h / #_
nj → t͡ʃ

The original plural form *-jawa went to -ewe due to vowel harmony. I'm thinking Proto-Híí *θ became ss in Limestone.

I'm hoping to get a post up in the Hííenununóóoþa thread soon on some of these changes.
looks that you implied the interesting sound change o > i that you had mentioned once in another thread in one of your conlangs. Good job :)
...

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by felipesnark » 08 May 2015 23:08

@shimobaatar - The possible Zendlektek/Netonese words look quite interesting! I'm more partial to the more phonemic orthography, but both look neat.

@atman - It's good to see some more Atlántika! I've always found this language of yours to be intriguing.

I've been working on the sequence of tenses and moods for Shonkasika's conditional constructions. I've used Latin and Greek as inspiration. Basically, general and simple factual conditions present and past will use the indicative mood in both clauses. Present contrary-to-fact conditions use the simple conditional mood in both clauses, whereas past contrary-to-fact conditions will use the perfect conditional in both clauses. Future conditionals will use the future or future perfect indicative if they are considered very probable, the future subjunctive is they are considered less likely and the future optative in both clauses if they are considered quite unlikely.

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by shimobaatar » 09 May 2015 02:08

DesEsseintes wrote:More diachronic speculation today: Limestone sóssonıewe and Hííenununóóoþa hííþıchıo may be cognates.
Do the words have meanings, or are they just examples at the moment? Either way, awesome!
atman wrote:I've finally polished up my Atlántika translation of the Lord's Prayer. It wasn't easy, not just because of the limitations of my conlang, but also because of the religious nature of the text, which requires special care.
Looks great! It was cool to read over, especially since I'm so used to hearing the Koiné version. It's always fun to hear/read/see something that's similar to something you're used to, but still considerably different.
felipesnark wrote:@shimobaatar - The possible Zendlektek/Netonese words look quite interesting! I'm more partial to the more phonemic orthography, but both look neat.
Wow, thank you! That's so nice to hear! [:D]

I think I'm pretty partial towards the phonemic orthography as well, since I've spent several years now slowly tweaking it in an attempt to make it more aesthetically pleasing (at least to me), whereas I made up the deep orthography while I was working on that post.
felipesnark wrote:I've been working on the sequence of tenses and moods for Shonkasika's conditional constructions. I've used Latin and Greek as inspiration. Basically, general and simple factual conditions present and past will use the indicative mood in both clauses. Present contrary-to-fact conditions use the simple conditional mood in both clauses, whereas past contrary-to-fact conditions will use the perfect conditional in both clauses. Future conditionals will use the future or future perfect indicative if they are considered very probable, the future subjunctive is they are considered less likely and the future optative in both clauses if they are considered quite unlikely.
I love the variety here, especially how the mood used in the future indicates how the speaker feels about the probability of what they're talking about happening!

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by DesEsseintes » 09 May 2015 02:24

shimobaatar wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:More diachronic speculation today: Limestone sóssonıewe and Hííenununóóoþa hííþıchıo may be cognates.
Do the words have meanings, or are they just examples at the moment? Either way, awesome!
I got fed "tribe" over in Reverse Lexicon Building, and I'm thinking the eventual meaning will be sth like "tribal affiliation/lineage". An interesting idea here would be to make it an inalienably possessed noun. If that's the case the component hı(ı)- (so- in Limestone) might either mark an indefinite possessor or a 3rd person possessor.
shimobaatar wrote:
felipesnark wrote:@shimobaatar - The possible Zendlektek/Netonese words look quite interesting! I'm more partial to the more phonemic orthography, but both look neat.
Wow, thank you! That's so nice to hear! [:D]

I think I'm pretty partial towards the phonemic orthography as well, since I've spent several years now slowly tweaking it in an attempt to make it more aesthetically pleasing (at least to me), whereas I made up the deep orthography while I was working on that post.
Whichever you go for, it would be great to see a description of the deep orthography at some point. [:)]

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Lambuzhao » 09 May 2015 02:42

atman wrote:I've finally polished up my Atlántika translation of the Lord's Prayer.
τετελεσται !
Spoiler:
(for now)
<PFT>complete-PFT.PASS.3SG

Anyway I'm pretty impressed with the result: I think some lines flow really well, like "bazlèha sèhu recal, tlèma sèhu subanal", "ma dilhajmadi mas aji" and a few more.
ναί ναί !

Interestingly, 'bazlèha sèhu' seems to sound a little like :ukr: Благослoвіть bless<IMPTV>. Squadelphious serendipity!


I find quite interesting the similar fates of the collapsed medial consonant clusters in

οὐρανοῖς , ὄνομά and δύναμις .
[+1]

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Khemehekis » 09 May 2015 02:58

What language of origin would "squadelphiois" be? The Q makes it sound Latin; with its squ- beginning it could even be Algonquian (squash, squaw, Squanto, etc.) And yet "delph" is clearly Greek (Philadelphia, Delphim, adelphopoiesis, etc.)
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by shimobaatar » 09 May 2015 06:07

DesEsseintes wrote:I got fed "tribe" over in Reverse Lexicon Building, and I'm thinking the eventual meaning will be sth like "tribal affiliation/lineage". An interesting idea here would be to make it an inalienably possessed noun. If that's the case the component hı(ı)- (so- in Limestone) might either mark an indefinite possessor or a 3rd person possessor.
Ahh, OK. Is this hı(ı)- prefix related in any way to the beginning of the word Hííenununóóoþa?
DesEsseintes wrote:Whichever you go for, it would be great to see a description of the deep orthography at some point. [:)]
Oh, certainly! I'll do my best to explain the basics now, but a full description will require me to know things I haven't decided on just yet. Thank you for your interest, by the way! [:D]

The deep orthography is based on the pronunciation of a direct ancestor of Zendlektek that predates it by about 2000 years. This is not a perfect comparison by any means, but it would be something like the French spelling French words in a way that's pretty close to how earlier forms of those words would have been pronounced in Classical Latin, but occasionally with some consciousness of sound changes. I think it's worth noting that this "Classical" language (called Central Beta or Proto-Central-Beta for now) is just as far removed temporally from Proto-Western-Ypsilon as it is from Zendlektek.

So, the Zendlektek deep orthographic form shéoghehémes /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/ will be our example. Only sound changes relevant to the word in question will be mentioned below.

As we've seen, the Proto-Ypsilon word was originally ssēoggṛ́fṇməs /sːeɔ̯ːˈgːɻ̩ɸn̩məs/, which became Proto-Western-Ypsilon sseoggəɸɪ̃məs /sːeɔ̯gːəˈɸɪ̃məs/ when long diphthongs in initial unstressed syllables shortened, syllabic sonorants became "proper" vowels, and stress shifted to the syllable immediately after the last syllable of the word to have a long phoneme of any kind.

Over the next 2000 years, /ɸ/ debuccalized to /h/, /ɪ̃/ lowered to /e/, diphthongs consisting of two vowels of approximately the same height were separated, and all geminate consonants became aspirated, leaving us with sheyoghëhemës /sʰejogʱəˈheməs/ in Proto-Central-Beta. Pretty close to our modern deep orthography, but not quite.

Leading up to Zendlektek, final consonants elided, aspirated voiceless fricatives debuccalized to /h/, /ejo/ sequences returned to /eɔ̯/ due to the influence of overlong vowel breaking, /ə/ elided completely, /h/ disappeared next to consonants, /gʱ/ lenited to /ɣ/, /ɣ/ merged with /ʑ~ʝ/, /h/ merged with at least one other phoneme to become /x/, and stress tended to shift in favor of creating syllables with consonant onsets, giving us /xeɔ̯ˈʑem/, spelled ḥeojem in a more phonemic orthography, but shéoghehémes in a deeper one.

So why shéoghehémes instead of sheyoghëhemës?

Regarding the diphtong: First of all, /eɔ̯/ > /ejo/ > /eɔ̯/ happened pretty much universally and /ejo/ didn't last very long. Furthermore, /ejo/ sequences became /eɔ̯/ between Proto-Central-Beta and Zendlektek even if they hadn't come from /eɔ̯/ before Proto-Central-Beta, meaning absolutely all Proto-Central-Beta /ejo/ sequences became /eɔ̯/ in Zendlektek. I'm sure I'm over-explaining this, but the gist of it is that writing Proto-Central-Beta <eyo> as <eo> in the Zendlektek deep orthography would be more efficient and created little to no ambiguity.

The schwa situation is still one that needs a lot of figuring out, but the change from Proto-Central-Beta's /e ə/ <e ë> to Zendlektek's /e Ø/ <é e> (since schwa elided) could probably be described in an overly simple way as "accenting the more strongly pronounced vowel". <é> is depicted as a long version of the silent schwa <e>, despite the fact that /e/ <é> has a long form itself. Conservative orthographies often don't make the most sense. So, shéoghehémes it is.

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