What did you accomplish today?

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Khemehekis
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Khemehekis » 18 Sep 2016 16:39

Iyionaku wrote:Also, I would just write "cut.PROG" as I usually regard present tense as default.
In Kankonian, no ending means infinitive or gerund (or irrealis). Present tense is marked by the suffix -as. So I always include PRS when glossing Kankonian.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by felipesnark » 18 Sep 2016 16:49

I have been working on complement and relative clauses which are usually a neglected part of my conlangs. As of now, Shonkasika's strategy includes a complementizer, wek, which can decline for case, relative pronouns dus/nek, for animate and inanimate nouns respectively, and indefinite correlative/resumptive pronouns sus/sek. Sometimes clauses can be nominalized with gerunds or relativized with participles, but I won't go over that here.

Complement clause
Spoiler:
wek is used as a subordinating conjunction in noun clauses. It declines for case.

Zeilos jes we wistat.

happy-MASC-NOM be-3SG COMP.ACC know-1SG
“I know that he is happy”

Wistat we zeilos jes.
know-1SG COMP.ACC happy-MASC-NOM be-3SG
“I know that he is happy”

Hired laidoyem wek tev beces.

chicken-ACC eat-SUBJ-2SG COMP-NOM 1SG-DAT annoy-3SG
"It annoys me that you eat chicken"
Relative clause
Spoiler:
Kotana na Jack ramasas, glait.
house-DEF.ACC REL.TERR.ACC Jack build-PST-3SG, see-1SG
"I see the house that Jack built."
Headless relative clause
Spoiler:
Sek nek (sus dus - for animate zero antecedents)- Free (or indefinite or headless) relative clauses take the combination “sek nek” with “sek” declining according to the function in the main clause and “ne” declining according to the function in the subordinate clause. If “sek” and “nek” would be in the same case, “sek” can be left out.


(Se) ne jenasam, wistat
(COR.ACC) REL.ACC make-PST-2SG, know-1SG
“I know what you made”

Ne jenasam, (se) wistat
Wistat (se), ne jenasam
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!

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Chagen
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Chagen » 18 Sep 2016 22:33

I finally figured out a way to have both diphthong breaking and vowel merging during infixing in Kirroŋa. Old Kirroŋa could infix both semivowels and actual vowels to roots: more specifically, /w j h/ and /u i a/. For Kirroŋa, the consonantal infixes cause breaking in complex roots, but the vowel ones cause merging (in non-complex roots, the consonantal infixes cause gemination (as any consonant-final infix would), while the vowel ones merge like usual):

For instance, Kirroŋa has a set of abstract nouns formed from the model Ø-<j>-į which forms abstract nouns. Compare it to the aC-<i>-Ø model which forms aorist nouns:

bhod "meditate" (complex root)
> bhayudį "meditation"
> abhud "enlightenment, understanding"

ḍiŋ "bring" (simple root)
> ḍiŋŋį "offering", contribution"
> aḍḍįŋ "assistance"

(As a side note: good lord this language's morphophonology is getting pretty crazy. There's a TON of rules one has to remember to keep everything straight).
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

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Axiem
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Axiem » 18 Sep 2016 23:13

Iyionaku wrote: Most people in this board go after the Leipzig glossing conventions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... reviations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlinear_gloss
Ah! Those are incredibly helpful! I keep forgetting "Leipzig", which is of course the key word for googling it :)

Though I'm not 100% sure about the actual names for various things in my language. Once I actually get a summary a bit more put together (and fill out some more declension charts), I'll post and ask people who Know Better whether I picked the right names or not.
Also, some people (including me) tend to leave out information that is seen as inherently. For example, I would not gloss the genders as they don't seem to have any influence on other words. Also, I would just write "cut.PROG" as I usually regard present tense as default.
For some reason, I thought I'd seen people glossing genders of nouns before, though it could have been in situations where the gender of the noun impacted how other words were inflected (and to be fair, adjectives in Kuvia inflect to accord with the gender of the noun they modify, like Latin).

I hadn't realized present tense was a default. I'll have to think about how verbs conjugate in Kuvian (which, while I know some of the conjugations, I don't know all of them) to see whether it makes sense to assume that as a default (per Kankonian).

I also realized about an hour after I posted this that I forgot to include the pronunciation :( Or is that something okay to skip with these sorts of entries in random posts?
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Iyionaku
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Iyionaku » 19 Sep 2016 02:32

When your present is marked, like in Kankonian, you have to gloss it, yes. As you haven't given morpheme borders in your example, I cannot tell.

Pronunciation is not a must, but in many cases very helpful. Also, it is not as hard to add them. Use the webpage ipa.typeit.org/full to have a very easy way of typing IPA signs. You can also use X-SAMPA, which only contains ASCII. But please do not, I despise its look. :/
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Axiem
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Axiem » 19 Sep 2016 03:02

Iyionaku wrote:When your present is marked, like in Kankonian, you have to gloss it, yes. As you haven't given morpheme borders in your example, I cannot tell.
As it currently stands, the dictionary form is the present progressive, so I guess that means I don't have to gloss it. Point noted.
Pronunciation is not a must, but in many cases very helpful. Also, it is not as hard to add them. Use the webpage ipa.typeit.org/full to have a very easy way of typing IPA signs. You can also use X-SAMPA, which only contains ASCII. But please do not, I despise its look. :/
Waaaay back when I was on the CONLANG-L, I used X-SAMPA a lot. Now that Unicode is actually widely supported, I'm all on board with using real IPA. I'm just lazy about going to a separate webpage to type pronunciation :)
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by loglorn » 19 Sep 2016 04:10

I had a stroke of laziness that actually proved to be quite time consuming. I decided to use a random generator to come up with words for the new conlang i'm working on (which as of yet doesn't have a name, following the 'Project ...' trend i'll call it Project Khidr for now).

Just spent the last few hours fine tuning the phoneme frequencies in the word generator until the results felt just right.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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alynnidalar
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by alynnidalar » 19 Sep 2016 18:20

Been messing around with a sort of moraic system. I don't know very much about morae so most of this has been made up as I went along.

Anyway. Here's how you determine syllable weight:

initial consonant, semivowel, or short vowel: 1
long vowel, diphthong initial consonant cluster (CC only), coda consonant, geminate: 2
coda cluster (CC only): 3

Geminates are only of unvoiced stops (maybe fricatives? I don't even know what the phonology is, though) and only occur syllable-initially (including word-initially... probably).

Light syllables have a weight of 2, so they can either be a long vowel (e.g. /a:/), a diphthong (e.g. /oa/), a semivowel + vowel (/we/ or /aw/), or an initial consonant + vowel (/sa/, /fi/, etc.)
Medium syllables have a weight of 3. For example, /dei/ CVV, /eŋ/ CV, /t:a/ C:V, /blo/ CCV, etc.
Heavy syllables have a weight of 4. Examples: /xlu:/ CCV:, /t:wa/ C:SV, /eut/ VVC, /aŋk/ VCC, etc.
Superheavy syllables have a weight of 5. Examples: /k:un/ C:VC, /dawn/ CVSC, /vlioj/ CCVVS, etc.

From a brief perusal of literature (read: I skimmed a couple Wikipedia articles), it sounds like most languages actually only have a three-way distinction? So I might rename them to zero-weight, light, heavy, and superheavy, adjusting the weight values accordingly. (so initial consonants/vowels will have a weight of zero, long vowels have a weight of 1, etc.)

There are also the following rules for how words can be composed:
  • No more than 1 superheavy syllable per word.
  • Adjacent syllables cannot have the same weight.
  • Light and superheavy syllables cannot be directly adjacent. (i.e. LMS is fine, but MLS is not)
  • Words have a maximum weight based on the number of syllables:
    • 1 syllable = max of 5
    • 2 syllables = max of 8
    • 3 syllables = max of 11
    • 4 syllables = max of 14 (or maybe 15, although that would break the pattern)
Sample words (using a sample phonology) and their analysis (weight in parentheses):
dawn = S (5)
tjo.fi = ML (5)
ɣauɣ.dei = SM (8)
siw.kkuŋ.fā = MSM (11)
we.dda.eut = LMH (9) (could also be analyzed as we.ddae.ut (LHM (9)))
pē.ā.vet = MLH (9) (could also be analyzed as pē.āv.et (MHM (10)))
ā.pē.ttaiw = LMS (10) (could be analyzed as āp.ē.ttaiw (HLS (11)--invalid because you can't go from a light syllable directly to a superheavy one) or ā.pē.tta.iw (LMMM (11)--invalid because adjacent syllables can't have the same weight))
ja.tte.zlan.dei = LMSM (13) (could be analyzed as ja.ttez.lan.dei (LSHM (14)) or ja.ttez.land.ei (LSSL), but both would result in a light syllable (/ja/) next to a superheavy one (/ttez/). ja.tte.zland.ei is not a valid analysis either, because *zland would have a weight of 6, and only a max of 5 is allowed, in superheavy syllables)

Presumably this would do something interesting to stress (or pitch accent or something), but I haven't gotten that far yet. There may also be further rules about what sort of syllables can begin or end words--for example, no word-initial superheavy syllables or something. Possibly even some rules that work across word boundaries, allophonically?

Tentatively, affixes (probably suffixes) would have lighter and heavier variants, to be used as necessary. Not sure what you'd do if neither affix was appropriate; possibly each affix would have a full set of four variants.

(don't actually expect any more of this, by the way. I just got inspired this morning and thought I'd work some details out--who knows when I'll get interested in it again??)

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Isfendil
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Isfendil » 19 Sep 2016 18:48

I finally started my own conlang thread today, with the hopes that it will motivate me to organize my language. I am pretty happy about that.

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OTʜᴇB
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by OTʜᴇB » 19 Sep 2016 18:51

Isfendil wrote:I finally started my own conlang thread today, with the hopes that it will motivate me to organie my language. I am pretty happy about that.

I'm just about to start one too. Just an hour or so to give all my roots their own bits of word and I can create some sample sentences so you can all understand my jibberish [:D]
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BTW I use Arch

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Chagen
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Chagen » 19 Sep 2016 19:03

I am perpetually unsatisfied with Kirronga's cases no matter what I do. I'm going to truly tear down and rebuild endings (the actual set of cases will almost certainly remain very similar). I'm never going to be content with this language, am I? Watch this new anotherer situation where I say that I'm rebuilding everything and then the final result barely differs from before. It's really hard to get rid of stuff you've used for a while, huh?

I don't know why Kirronga gives me this much trouble. Pazmat's cares are nearly identical to my first draft and I love them (and I can't even be cheap and pilfer from it since the two languages have drastically different phonologies). Perhaps I need to pull a Pazmat and use entirely different cases for the two noun/adjective classes, though I struggle to find a good diachronic justification for that. I have some interesting ideas involving the Explicit Nominative, though. Unfortunately I will have to rewrite all of my nominal charts. Great.

Heocg is spoken in the same sprachbund--maybe I should pilfer some stuff from it (Kirronga's complete lack of fricatives hinders this though). God, I don't even remember that language at all. I'm also thinking of keeping the old case markers around for the pronouns, demonstratives, and pronominal suffixes. After all, having drastically different forms for those elements is most certainly attested in the real world.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

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Isfendil
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Isfendil » 19 Sep 2016 21:36

OTʜᴇB wrote:
Isfendil wrote:I finally started my own conlang thread today, with the hopes that it will motivate me to organie my language. I am pretty happy about that.

I'm just about to start one too. Just an hour or so to give all my roots their own bits of word and I can create some sample sentences so you can all understand my jibberish [:D]

Organize is a variably spelt word, and we were taught to use "z" in my province's education system.

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Anwelda
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Anwelda » 19 Sep 2016 21:58

My goodness! You guys do a lot of things in a day! I am impressed!

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DesEsseintes
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by DesEsseintes » 20 Sep 2016 04:05

Isfendil wrote:organize
OTʜᴇB wrote:
Isfendil wrote:organie

Seriously, OTʜᴇB? You're planning to teach "them" how to spell like "us"?
I refuse to believe that you are unaware of the different spelling conventions in the US.

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Egerius
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Egerius » 20 Sep 2016 11:20

Rule Britannia... [;)]
Hm... I worked out a few details of the Psammian conreligion.
Basically, there's four symmetrically placed feasts (one per season), commemorating the four prophets' gain of divine powers.
Furthermore, two of these feasts are significantly longer than the other two (4 days), because they commemorate the birth (winter – 8 days, similar to Christmas) and the death (summer – 6 days, not unlike Easter) of the prophets at about 36 years of age.
Languages of Rodentèrra: Buonavallese, Saselvan Argemontese; Wīlandisċ Taulkeisch; More on the road.
Conlang embryo of TELES: Proto-Avesto-Umbric ~> Proto-Umbric
New blog: http://argentiusbonavalensis.tumblr.com

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OTʜᴇB
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by OTʜᴇB » 20 Sep 2016 15:12

DesEsseintes wrote:
Isfendil wrote:organize
OTʜᴇB wrote:
Isfendil wrote:organie

Seriously, OTʜᴇB? You're planning to teach "them" how to spell like "us"?
I refuse to believe that you are unaware of the different spelling conventions in the US.

I know they spell it differently there... I just couldn't help it. Besides, was it really such a significant thing as to replace one letter in one word?
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Frislander
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Frislander » 20 Sep 2016 16:00

OTʜᴇB wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:
Isfendil wrote:organize
OTʜᴇB wrote:
Isfendil wrote:organie

Seriously, OTʜᴇB? You're planning to teach "them" how to spell like "us"?
I refuse to believe that you are unaware of the different spelling conventions in the US.

I know they spell it differently there... I just couldn't help it. Besides, was it really such a significant thing as to replace one letter in one word?


Well imagine how you'd feel if an American did that to you?

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gestaltist
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by gestaltist » 20 Sep 2016 16:05

OTʜᴇB wrote: Besides, was it really such a significant thing as to replace one letter in one word?
It wasn't. Unless you care about tact and politeness...
Last edited by gestaltist on 20 Sep 2016 20:29, edited 1 time in total.

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OTʜᴇB
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by OTʜᴇB » 20 Sep 2016 16:31

Frislander wrote:
OTʜᴇB wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:
Isfendil wrote:organize
OTʜᴇB wrote:
Isfendil wrote:organie

Seriously, OTʜᴇB? You're planning to teach "them" how to spell like "us"?
I refuse to believe that you are unaware of the different spelling conventions in the US.

I know they spell it differently there... I just couldn't help it. Besides, was it really such a significant thing as to replace one letter in one word?


Well imagine how you'd feel if an American did that to you?

I'd ignore it because what I had typed would still be the same. It would just appear very slightly different in his/her one quote.
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BTW I use Arch

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Chagen
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Chagen » 21 Sep 2016 22:11

Working on Kirroŋa is gonna drive me insane, and there's one reason for it: the nominal case affixes. I spent several hours on Monday creating a new set of nominal case affixes and I still cannot get them in a way I like. I don't know why. The verbal affixes--all of the TAM markers and the verbal case markers never caused me this much trouble.

Well, actually, I do know why: Kirroŋa's nominal system is a fight between two kinds of nouns: the consonant-stems, and the vowel-stems (henceforth "c/v-stems"). V-stems are cool because they showcase vowel merging (simple v-stems) and breaking (complex v-stems). However, it is boring if the nouns showcase merging/broken forms in every case. I have only 12 cases to showcase these features. Since I want the c-stems and v-stems to overall share the same endings, I have to make twelve endings, about half of which are vowel-initial (which cause merging/breaking in v-stems) and the other half of which are consonant-initial (which don't; also, let's ignore that the cases would not be evenly distributed through a text anyway, because I'm a fucking idiot who doesn't take stuff like that into account when I'm panicking). But wait! C-stems will assimilate the first vowel of consonant-initial endings, meaning that the initial consonant is useless; e.g idat-mi and idat-bi will both assimilate to idatti, unless I have voicing assimilation as well (idatti idadi/idaddi), but voicing assimilation does not occur at ALL in suffix assimilation. I mean, it could, but I'd have to go back and rewrite at least some of all of my goddamn charts. Also, it would be weird (but hey, weird is cool!).

Not to mention that my oh-so-genius plan of creating proto-forms and then deriving the case suffixes from those was a complete pain and only made things even more annoying. For instance, in my work on Monday, I wrote "Case suffixes all have proto-forms of VCV", a rule I broke within four minutes by making the genitive marker's proto-form *mi. I also keep trying to do this distinction between "Core Cases" (NOM,EXNOM,ACC,DAT,GEN,S.OBL,M.OBL) and "Secondary Cases" (BEN,CAUS,SEM,TRANS,ABL) that makes no sense and just made me make more rules I broke immediately.

This would be much easier if Kirroŋa had more categories on the noun. If I marked, say, plurality, I could make all the case suffixes -CV(Y)(C) and then have a plural suffix -V- before the cases. Then v-stems would be merged/broken in the plural but not in the singular. However, Kirroŋa nouns only mark case and nothing else.

Then I have problems of length. I have always been conscious of the length of utterances in my conlangs compared to English (which is fucking stupid, I know), and anything "too long" makes me super-anxious. To make things worse the c-stem I used for testing the endings out is idat "boy", which is longer than its English translation already (yes, I am well aware that Kirroŋa's lack of articles means that idat actually means "the boy" or "a boy" and there is not longer than its translation, but I never said I thought rationally). The rest of the language doesn't matter. No, I have to freak out about idataka "because of the boy" "by the boy" even though Kirroŋa also has yo øwe
garranabaremobba
"he might have wanted to begin studying by then".

(I have just decided with this one sentence that øwe "now, by now" is actually relative to its clause's tense; hence, in past or future tense sentences it means "by then, at that time, when". I like this!)

Then there are the adjectives and demonstratives. Should they share endings or should the adjectives use the c-stem and v-stem endings? Maybe they use a mix of the dem. and nom. endings, with the athematics using only dem. endings?

Let's not forget that I can not let my old endings the fuck go. I've used them for long enough that sacrificing them is incredibly hard--they are part of what makes Kirroŋa, well, Kirroŋa! I think "well, I've keep the genitive as mi and the Motive Oblique as -(a)tu and before you know it I've barely changed anything.

Speaking of, there's other unfinished business, such as the fact that the pronominal system is a completely dumpster fire. I have three different pronominal systems (pronouns, possessive suffixes, person infixes) and they all are different from each other for no reason. It makes remembering things a pain and I have to check my notes a lot. I should at least make the possessive suffixes and person infixes the same (which means I have to re-do MY ENTIRE VERBAL CASE SUFFIX CHART. Fuck.)

The worst part of all this, by far, is that I can't really work on the rest of the language until this is sorted out. I'm not the kind of person who can work entirely with glosses alone when determining grammar, I need to have the actual text in front of me (hence why I always start with phonology). This is gonna drive me crazy. I might go back to Pazmat for a while--oh who am I kidding, we all know I'm gonna ram my head against this shit until I finally get it right.

man who am I kidding, who the hell is gonna read all this shit
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

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