What did you accomplish today?

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1882
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by loglorn » 08 May 2017 18:20

I shall call it Cyriliclicks.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5780
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Toma-ʾEzra lit Vṛḵaža

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh » 08 May 2017 18:28

loglorn wrote:I shall call it Cyriliclicks.
Would be very fitting.
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Šat Wərxažu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

User avatar
LinguoFranco
greek
greek
Posts: 466
Joined: 20 Jul 2016 17:49
Location: U.S.

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by LinguoFranco » 09 May 2017 00:09

Well, I finally settled on a vowel system, which is based on Igbo, because that language has exactly what I was looking for, though I was torn between ATR harmony or going with four vowels /a e i o/ like Nahuatl.

User avatar
lsd
roman
roman
Posts: 927
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by lsd » 09 May 2017 18:30

I must rework the articulation between temporal and aspectal adpositions ... since the deletion of verbs ...

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5780
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Toma-ʾEzra lit Vṛḵaža

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh » 09 May 2017 18:46

An interesting thing about Onschen is that is has adjectival affixes, including for basic colours, temperature, and age.

сӣгута таі магхвалӯ.
[ʃẽ:gut̪a t̪ai̯ mawalõ:]
NFUT.PL-live-1.ABS. grey-sky-ERG.INAN
We live under the grey sky.

вналіазазбач хошіазве.
[vn̪alʲazazbat͡ʃ xoʃ:azvʲe]
2.ERG-NFUT.SG-possess-NEG-3.ABS blue-PL-eye-ERG.INAN
You don't have blue eyes.

тиіуліач зитуфкекамџо.
[t̪ʲijulʲat͡ʃ ʒit̪ufkʲekamd͡ʒo]
1.ERG-PL-see-3.ABS steel-white-hot-ERG.INAN
We see the white-hot steel.
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Šat Wərxažu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

User avatar
Chagen
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3970
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 05:14
Location: Texas

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Chagen » 09 May 2017 20:23

I worked on Pazmat today.

I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.

...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.

This is gonna need some simplification.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

User avatar
Egerius
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2388
Joined: 12 Sep 2013 21:29
Location: Not Rodentèrra
Contact:

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Egerius » 09 May 2017 21:11

Chagen wrote:I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.

...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
Linguistic supernova blowing up in 3, 2, 1... [xD]
Languages of Rodentèrra: Buonavallese, Saselvan Argemontese; Wīlandisċ Taulkeisch; More on the road.
Conlang embryo of TELES: Proto-Avesto-Umbric ~> Proto-Umbric
New blog: http://argentiusbonavalensis.tumblr.com

User avatar
Axiem
sinic
sinic
Posts: 394
Joined: 10 Sep 2016 06:56

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Axiem » 10 May 2017 03:32

I thought I had finally figured out Mto's moon system, and had even started creating animations and running simulations out to a million years to make sure it was stable on a reasonable timeframe for civilization, and getting everything together—and now I'm second-guessing all of my numbers and things.

To make it worse, I'm starting to think the Hot Jupiter idea probably won't work, so now I have massive decision paralysis in terms of Mto's solar system

Making decisions is haaaaaaaaard [:'(]
Conworld: Mto
:con: : Kuvian

User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5665
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Lao Kou » 10 May 2017 12:11

Egerius wrote:
Chagen wrote:I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.
...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
Linguistic supernova blowing up in 3, 2, 1... [xD]
Major Tom saw it in 4, 3, 2, 1... Long live Major Tom
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

User avatar
gestaltist
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1797
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 11:23

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by gestaltist » 10 May 2017 13:13

Chagen wrote: I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.

...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.

This is gonna need some simplification.
Are you reworking Polish or something? [xD]

User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3512
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by elemtilas » 10 May 2017 16:43

Chagen wrote: I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.

...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.

This is gonna need some simplification.

So . . . what's the issue with 30 verbal classes? Surely the more the merrier? :mrgreen:

User avatar
MrKrov
banned
Posts: 2389
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 02:47
Location: /ai/ > /a:/
Contact:

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by MrKrov » 10 May 2017 23:36

Bluntly: self-aggrandizing is what.

User avatar
Lambuzhao
korean
korean
Posts: 7784
Joined: 13 May 2012 02:57

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Lambuzhao » 11 May 2017 03:00

Lao Kou wrote:
Egerius wrote:
Chagen wrote:I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.
...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
Linguistic supernova blowing up in 3, 2, 1... [xD]
Major Tom saw it in 4, 3, 2, 1... Long live Major Tom
My momma said "To get things done
U better not conujugate Major Tom"
Vechnaya pamyat to the both of 'em [<3] [<3]

...Was just talking with my son about Space Oddity.
How odd it's mentioned herein. And now~ish.
:wat: [;)]

User avatar
Chagen
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3970
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 05:14
Location: Texas

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Chagen » 12 May 2017 01:45

elemtilas wrote:

So . . . what's the issue with 30 verbal classes? Surely the more the merrier? :mrgreen:
Ridiculous complexity in a language that is already super complex. And worse: complexity that adds no new grammatical or syntactic wrinkles, just more brain-burden.
gestaltist wrote: Are you reworking Polish or something? [xD]
Nah, lol. Verbs in Pazmat are arranged according to their base-vowel, and whatever extra stuff has an effect on what that verb's grades will look like. mat- "to speak" is an a-base, midh- "to ask" is an i-base, and śtars- "to move" is an ar-base, because it has different grades than an a-base like mat- (śtars/śtōs/śtaus vs. mat/mēt/meyt). The simplest verbs, such as mat- and midh-, which follow the "normal" ablaut patterns for their vowels, are grouped as "simple verbs".

Though, not all verbs with -ar- are ar-bases: scar- "to shout, scream" is a technically an a-base, as verbs are ranked according to how they appear when suffixed with a vowel, and verbs which end in -ar- (as opposed to -arC- like śtars-) act like normal a-bases this way: "I am shouting" is scērana akin to mētana "I am talking", compared to śtōsana "I am moving (s.thing else)". This is becaue almost every verbal suffix ends in a vowel. However, for the few times they don't (such as when compounding, or nominal suffixes such as -tū (but not when the suffix begins with /r/ itself), then verbs like scar- would behave like ar-bases, as in the word scōtū "loudspeaker". As such, they are sometimes considered not a-bases nor ar-bases, but a separate class: the mixed rhotic a-bases (confusingly enough, ar-bases and er-bases are called "rhotic verbs"!)

If that were not enough, Pazmat grammatical tradition often has redundant classes. Remember how I said the ar-bases and er-bases were considered "rhotic verbs"? Well, -irC-, -urC-, and -orC- (i.e ir-base, ur-base, and or-base) verbs are also part of the rhotic verbs. However, these verbs behave identically to their non-rhotic counterparts, making these classes honestly superfluous. Look at the identical grades between vus- "lay prone" and burst- "feel (emotionally)":

vus/voys/vūs
burst/boyrst/būrst

In Pazmat grammatical tradition, vus- is a u-base and burst- is a ur-base, even though they behave identically and nothing prevents burst- from being a simple u-base. It's classed as a ur-base solely so the rhotic verbs have five classes like the simple ones, to appear more "orderly" and "pleasing". The traditional even calls these three "rhotic" verbs "fake rhotics". This does inflate the amount of classes a little more. Of course, I could always change the ablaut patterns of the three fake rhotics to make them true rhotics, but that's a lot of extra complexity...

Also, remember how I said the simple verbs had five classes? They actually should have seven, including the ṛ-bases and ṇ-bases, but these are considered a separate subset called "syllabics" (there are no syllabic rhotics, because honestly how the hell do you pronounce -ṛrC- or -ṇrC-). Then we have the ṃ-bases, except those...became their own weird class as ṃ disappeared early. Then syllabics are split into "open" and "closed", depending if they have a consonsant post-the syllabic or not (which honestly changes almost nothing...I think).

Moving on from that there are what can be considered Pazmat's "true" irregular verbs: verbs whose roots end in -y- or -w-. These verbs are fine when suffixed with vowels (as nearly all verbal suffixes are...except the infinitive), it's when consonants are suffixed that they act weirdly (as of now, -y- becomes -ṣ- and -w-...uh, geminates verbs or messes with the vowels before it?*). This does mean that like 95% of the time they act like regular old simple verbs, but...gotta elaborate on everything, man!

*:I've been debating changing Pazmat's historical phonotactics, and allow /j w/ to be appear post-vocally like how they could in Proto-Indo-European, forming...diphthongs, sort of, but now really? I'm thinking of having these resonants screw up the ablaut of their vowels, or mess with the consonants following them (though I'm loath to alter the consonantal portions of roots too drastically), or perhaps become i/ī and u/ū under some circumstances (for instance: *dááyt > *deyyt > deyīt or maybe the /a/ never changes to /e/ and the result is dayīt or dayat or SOMETHING...feels extremely strange to expand a monosyllabic root to a disyllabic one though .__.

See, this is emblematic of one of my problems: I have to elaborate on every single possible permutation. The result is I'm wracking my brain to come up with all of them and coming up with solutions which is just extremely taxing...

Anyway, Pazmat grammatical tradition, like the Arabic one, uses a set of made up verbs to describe every class. In Pazmat's case, it's mV(r)th- for consonantal/"closed" verbs and mV(r/y/w)- for the ones which end in special consonants or are vocalic. The results gives us the following classes; in the following chart, a * in a class's name means that it's redundant and identical to its simple counterpart in all respects, while a ** means it's identical to the simple counterpart except when a consonant is directly suffixed. Along with the three grades, three normal forms are given: an reduced ar-stem, a tū-stem, and an infinitive, showing the long and overlong grades, respectively, when a consonant is suffixed. The only reason an ar-stem and tū-stem are given when both are long grade is because rhotic simple a-bases and e-bases (that is, verbs which end directly in -ar or -er) act differently when -r- is suffixed compared to any other consonant. Yes, the grammarians go to that level of detail...except I realized that this does not show what happens when an r is suffixed to an overlong root. OH WELL. That's such an extremely rare occurance it doesn't matter!

Oh, and one final thing: three asterisks (***) is reserved for a few classes which don't even exist (and probably never did) but were made just to make things even more orderly. They are classes involving ṃ.
Spoiler:
(I decided to cut out the nominal examples since it was taking forever and I'm only focused on the amount of classes)
(using a made-up verb for every class feels kinda boring when I could use real verbs, but I'm too lazy to trawl through my dictionary, and the point is to show off the ablaut with as few extraneous bits as possible)

Image

(this is not set in stone and honestly I will probably change some of this stuff).
There are 28 classes total, but cutting out all the 17 redundant ones give us a mere...11. Wow. That is a SHITLOAD of redundant classes. Granted, I really want to make the redundant classes unique, but I don't want classes to appear too similar...I'm very limited with only five vowel qualities, and four diphthongs (though I want to add a few more).

You know, I probably should have posted this explanation in my Pazmat thread. Now I'll have to write it all over again later...I spent like an hour making this pointless chart and post.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

User avatar
jimydog000
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 104
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by jimydog000 » 12 May 2017 11:06

I made around 200 nonsense words in my unnamed conlang, with it's phonotactics.
“Comparison is the death of joy.” -Mark Twain

User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3512
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by elemtilas » 12 May 2017 12:31

Chagen wrote:
elemtilas wrote:

So . . . what's the issue with 30 verbal classes? Surely the more the merrier? :mrgreen:
Ridiculous complexity in a language that is already super complex. And worse: complexity that adds no new grammatical or syntactic wrinkles, just more brain-burden.
I'm sure if anyone can uncover ever new ever wonderful syntactical or grammatic wrinkles it'ld be you.
There are 28 classes total, but cutting out all the 17 redundant ones give us a mere...11. Wow. That is a SHITLOAD of redundant classes. Granted, I really want to make the redundant classes unique, but I don't want classes to appear too similar...I'm very limited with only five vowel qualities, and four diphthongs (though I want to add a few more).

You know, I probably should have posted this explanation in my Pazmat thread. Now I'll have to write it all over again later...I spent like an hour making this pointless chart and post.
Just copy-n-paste. Anyway, looks like you're well on the way to approaching the complexity of, e.g., English for complexity!

Here's an interesting take on syntactic verb classes in English.

User avatar
Chagen
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3970
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 05:14
Location: Texas

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Chagen » 12 May 2017 20:11

elemtilas wrote:
Chagen wrote:
elemtilas wrote:

So . . . what's the issue with 30 verbal classes? Surely the more the merrier? :mrgreen:
Ridiculous complexity in a language that is already super complex. And worse: complexity that adds no new grammatical or syntactic wrinkles, just more brain-burden.
I'm sure if anyone can uncover ever new ever wonderful syntactical or grammatic wrinkles it'ld be you.
I'd love to but ablaut in Pazmat works like it does in PIE--it's, honestly, completely arbitrary. I like it because it adds variety to inflections.

I'd like to add one or two more diphthongs to Pazmat, but I'm not sure which ones. I really would love to have one spelled <iy> for that Arabic feel (how is that pronounced in Arabic exactly, by the way?), but that in Arabic only appears at the end of words it seems and so in the middle it does look kinda weird. I could also do /uj/ but that also sounds weird. There's only one Vu diphthong in Pazmat right now, /aw/ (/ew/ got turned into /o:/) but none of the others (/iw ow ew/) really fit well how I want the language to look. /aw/ is honestly the only Vu diphthong I think sounds good. /ew/ sounds goofy /ew/ sounds too close to /o/ because English is weird and doesn't have /o/, and /iw/ also sounds weird. I want Pazamat to only have the "classic" five vowels /a i u e o/ so that limits me quite a bit.

For the record, /ej/ has the same problem as /ow/ for me: since English has /ej ow/ instead of /e o/, the former sound almost identical as the latter to me. /ey/ is pretty much only there because it was there from the beginning.

All in all Pazmat's ablaut patterns are a little weird. They don't really have any good logical reasoning, and exhibit some weird patterns which...can't really be used in an interesting way. For instance, I've noticed a pattern amongst the five vowels: The mid and low /a e o/ have a long vowel for their long grades, and a diphthong for their overlong grades:
a/ē/ey
e/ī/ay
o/ā/oy (really wish I could come up with something better for this, having /oj/ as a form of /o/ just bugs me)
Meanwhile the high vowels /i u/ have diphthongs for their long grades and long vowels for their overlongs:
i/au/ū
u/oy/ū

...but nothing can really be done with this. Well, outside of changing the ablaut patterns which feels like sacrilege now that they're s

Truthfully, a large amount of my problems come from my own flaws and weird hang-ups. For instance, I feel the need to laboriously elaborate every single possibility. The result is that I tax my brain thinking of every single possibility instead of coming up with a decent framework and working on stuff as it appears. As such, I blow all my brainpower for the day endlessly going over charts and calculating forms until my head explodes from checking everything and I burn out for the day, and I keep doing it day after day after day until I just want to smash something.

Another thing I often do is come up with a cool new rule, and then realize it fucks some earlier thing up or has far-reaching implications. For instance, I recently decided that /w/ in Old Pazmat became a weakly fricated approximant /ʋ/, spelled <v> in the orthography (though distinct from the identically-spelled /v/, and viewed as a variant of /w/ by Pazmat speakers in certain situations: more specifically, post-consonantally and non-initially. This is a great way to explain otherwise inexplicable Cv clusters: tvīsena- "I am soaking/relaxing in hot water"* and madhaśva "we(incl.) lead" in Old Pazmat were twēsena and madhaśwa.

*: Apparently I do not actually have a single root with initial Cv in my dictionary. Funny. I made tves- "soak in hot water", and then made a counterpart yarch- "soak in cold water" because that's a quirky and unique set of verbs.

Sounds great...except this means that madhawa should be madhava. Also, any verb ending in -w- like tuw- "fly" would exhibit a -v- in almost every single conjugation (tuvū "it flies", toyvutha "it is flying", toyvuvyū "it flew", etc.) Granted this is easily fixable by removing the "non-initial" requirement. I think /w/ > /ʋ/ in between vowels is an interesting change, but...from what? When? See, this is what I mean, I end up stressing my brain to think of every single situation and I burnout. Maybe before /u/, but not initially (so wurfarā "boy" remains unchanged, though initial /wu/ will probably be pronounced [hʍ~ɦw] or summat, my voice settles on either that or a raised aspirated [w̝ʰ]...is that even a thing?

To be honest, I don't think any wV syllable other than /wa/ sounds nice for Pazmat. /wi wu we wo/ sound "weird" except initially. I might have all instances of them become /v/ medially, though they remain initially and when the /w/ is part of a root, I guess. Not like they appear that often anyway: -awa is about the only (V)wV suffix in Pazmat right now IIRC.

Also this doesn't explain what happens when /w/ is pre- vocal or final. Rare, yes, but let's say "bird" is tuwā, derived from tuw-. "a bird" is *toyw, "to a bird" is *toywyā. Now I've thought that /w/ > /ʋ/ before resonants (/r l m n ŋ w j/), so "to a bird" is toyvyā. But what happens when /w/ is final? Is there an epenthetic vowel? I have a few ideas: for instance, post dipthongs like in *toyw, it could vocalize to a /u/, breaking the diphthong: toyu "a bird", and in the case of -auw# you get -avu I guess: ḥavu "a gasp" (cf. hiwā "the gasp")...it feels incredibly weird having irregular nouns like this, even if they follow a logical rule.

I have some other ideas, such as -oywu- > -oyuu- > oyū, such that "I am flying" is toyūna, not toywuna. Another way to go about it would be -oywu- > -owwu- > -ōwu-, thus tōwuna "I am flying". I like this second one because it preserves the root's consonantal structure (tVw) and I generally don't like fucking with that around too much. This would apply in in the case of -aywu- and -eywu-, but these are extremely rare compared to -oywu- (which will appear in the Imperfect and Perfect of any w-final u-base root like tuw- No wait, they would appear in w-final e- and a-bases conjugated to the Stative: maw- "float" > meywubbū > mēwubbū "it begins to float"; nyew- "squeeze" > nyaywubbū > nyāwubbū "he begins to squeeze".

But...as much as I like this, the part of my brain that hates messy irregularity is screaming at me for it. We've got a situation where a root appears differently in one specific ablaut grade when one specific vowel follows it. Nothing else in Pazmat is like this. It just feels wrong. In the case of w-final a-bases like maw-, the Overlong grade is identical to the Long one in one specific conjugation, whereas in w-final e-bases like nyew- the Overlong grade looks like an o-base's Long grade.

But isn't this a good thing? After all, no language is 100% regular, and irregular stuff like this is common. Yet, it just...I don't know. I just don't.

After writing this, I realized that I could just analogize this, so that, say, -oywV- becomes -ōwV- in all cases. It sounds strange that one irregularity could force analogy, but -oywu- happens to be in the most common conjugation for w-final u-bases, so it makes sense, and makes the irregularity now fit Pazmat's tendencies. Single forms have been the analogy pivot before in natlangs anyway...this does not help for the other w-final roots, however, where -aywu- and -eywu- aren't nearly as common...but then again, that's one of the few times the Overlong grade ever appears at all! (I really need to use it more)

...I haven't even talked about when obstruents are suffixed to w-final roots. I thought about geminating the consonant. But that messes up the consonantal structure of the root and I hate that (even though that happens in y-finals, where the <y> becomes <ṣ>). Christ. I need to get over my weird hang-ups.

This doesn't even affect grammar! You know, the stuff I really would like to work on again. Ugh. In any case I think I'm gonna add a Cessative and think about making the Stative a derived stem (that is, you form a new verb meaning "to begin to [VERB]" with the stative which is derived like a normal verb), along with the Cessative I guess. But if I go that far, might as well make the Desiderative a derived stem.

You know, I think I should make Desiderative, Stative, and Cessative stems for participles. Pazmat uses participles for relative clauses and this means awkward participle and infinitive combinations (i.e "want to X" in a relative clause requires an infinitive with a participle of ray-, which means "to desire". At the same time, I like having periphrastic combinations. Having the verb inflect with everything feels like a...cop-out? I don't know. I really don't. God dammit. I could have the infinitives merge with the participles to form single words, but that also feels lazy.

I also played myself, as the Desiderative is based around -ar-, roughly, except -ar- is also the present active participle suffix (though I should probably change that..maybe to placing the base vowel in its place? That does sound nice), so I dunno what Desi. stem that isn't near-identical to the present active participle stem would even look like. Also, an almost completely unrelated note, I like the idea of the -ara- Desi.pres. ending becoming aCC in casual speech, so, say, milarana! "I want to lie down!" becomes milanna!. Except that looks a little...undistinct? What the fuck Chagen, it is pretty distinct, stop being an idiot. Maybe Pazmat needs a set of irrealis person markers. Or maybe that's just me coming up with an extremely overcomplicated solution to a simple problem again. Yeah.


Dear god look at this super long post. I'm sorry guys, I just find this ranting and describing my various processes and work to be therapeutic in a way. That's why they get so long, I just keep adding stuff because it's entertaining to write these posts even as they get super long.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S

User avatar
KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 681
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10
Location: Northern California

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 13 May 2017 00:51

^One thing I've liked about studying PIE ablaut is the extent to which it often seems arbitrary. The same ablaut patterns occur throughout the language, but they don't have the same functions when they do. For some things, it seems to be redundant. Why change /e/ to zero in the root in the genitive case; isn't the genitive ending enough? I've used this same kind of ablaut in my conlang, and I don't mind it at all. I love the variety that it adds.

User avatar
Parlox
greek
greek
Posts: 457
Joined: 10 Feb 2017 20:28
Location: Ehh

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Parlox » 13 May 2017 02:11

I have finished (I think) a new writing system bases off of insular script.
  • :con: Cajun, a descendant of French spoken in Louisiana.
  • :con: Bàsupan, loosely inspired by Amharic.
  • :con: Oddúhath Claire, a fusion of Welsh and Arabic.

User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3512
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by elemtilas » 13 May 2017 02:54

Chagen wrote:I'd love to but ablaut in Pazmat works like it does in PIE--it's, honestly, completely arbitrary. I like it because it adds variety to inflections.
Not entirely arbitrary. Of course, Pazmat ablaut doesn't háve to be so arbitrary!
I'd like to add one or two more diphthongs to Pazmat, but I'm not sure which ones. I really would love to have one spelled <iy> for that Arabic feel (how is that pronounced in Arabic exactly, by the way?), but that in Arabic only appears at the end of words it seems and so in the middle it does look kinda weird. I could also do /uj/ but that also sounds weird. There's only one Vu diphthong in Pazmat right now, /aw/ (/ew/ got turned into /o:/) but none of the others (/iw ow ew/) really fit well how I want the language to look. /aw/ is honestly the only Vu diphthong I think sounds good. /ew/ sounds goofy /ew/ sounds too close to /o/ because English is weird and doesn't have /o/, and /iw/ also sounds weird. I want Pazamat to only have the "classic" five vowels /a i u e o/ so that limits me quite a bit.
Mine has /o/. Like /bot/. Anyhoo. English defs weirds, and ymmv, etr.
For the record, /ej/ has the same problem as /ow/ for me: since English has /ej ow/ instead of /e o/, the former sound almost identical as the latter to me. /ey/ is pretty much only there because it was there from the beginning.
/plet/
All in all Pazmat's ablaut patterns are a little weird. They don't really have any good logical reasoning, and exhibit some weird patterns which...can't really be used in an interesting way. For instance, I've noticed a pattern amongst the five vowels: The mid and low /a e o/ have a long vowel for their long grades, and a diphthong for their overlong grades:
a/ē/ey
e/ī/ay
o/ā/oy (really wish I could come up with something better for this, having /oj/ as a form of /o/ just bugs me)
Meanwhile the high vowels /i u/ have diphthongs for their long grades and long vowels for their overlongs:
i/au/ū
u/oy/ū

...but nothing can really be done with this. Well, outside of changing the ablaut patterns which feels like sacrilege now that they're set.
Why not? You could combine ablaut gradation with accent shift. Perhaps build some verbal nouns or some other interesting structure on one or other of the grades. A heavier grade accented form could sap the strength of a neighbouring vowel and reduce it or delete it.
Truthfully, a large amount of my problems come from my own flaws and weird hang-ups. For instance, I feel the need to laboriously elaborate every single possibility. The result is that I tax my brain thinking of every single possibility instead of coming up with a decent framework and working on stuff as it appears. As such, I blow all my brainpower for the day endlessly going over charts and calculating forms until my head explodes from checking everything and I burn out for the day, and I keep doing it day after day after day until I just want to smash something.
Sounds about right.
Another thing I often do is come up with a cool new rule, and then realize it fucks some earlier thing up or has far-reaching implications. For instance, I recently decided that /w/ in Old Pazmat became a weakly fricated approximant /ʋ/, spelled <v> in the orthography (though distinct from the identically-spelled /v/, and viewed as a variant of /w/ by Pazmat speakers in certain situations: more specifically, post-consonantally and non-initially. This is a great way to explain otherwise inexplicable Cv clusters: tvīsena- "I am soaking/relaxing in hot water"* and madhaśva "we(incl.) lead" in Old Pazmat were twēsena and madhaśwa.
Excellent! Complexity breeds complexity. I'd say keep it up!
*: Apparently I do not actually have a single root with initial Cv in my dictionary. Funny. I made tves- "soak in hot water", and then made a counterpart yarch- "soak in cold water" because that's a quirky and unique set of verbs.
I love sets like that. Queranaran is chock full of the things. But that's just how Daine are: if they have a verb for something, they also find they have to have a verb for a range of oppositional points. (.i. "soak in hot water" would be opposed by not only "soak in cold water" but also "dunk in hot water" & "dunk in cold water" and "soak / dunk in warm / cool water"). Probably also verbs for "dipping one's left foot into cool / warm water" and "dipping one's right foot into warm / cool water".
Sounds great...except this means that madhawa should be madhava. Also, any verb ending in -w- like tuw- "fly" would exhibit a -v- in almost every single conjugation (tuvū "it flies", toyvutha "it is flying", toyvuvyū "it flew", etc.) Granted this is easily fixable by removing the "non-initial" requirement. I think /w/ > /ʋ/ in between vowels is an interesting change, but...from what? When? See, this is what I mean, I end up stressing my brain to think of every single situation and I burnout. Maybe before /u/, but not initially (so wurfarā "boy" remains unchanged, though initial /wu/ will probably be pronounced [hʍ~ɦw] or summat, my voice settles on either that or a raised aspirated [w̝ʰ]...is that even a thing?
Salright. You don't have to create Pazmat in a fortnight, you know. If you're halfway done with it by the time you're 60, I'd be frankly surprised.
...But...as much as I like this, the part of my brain that hates messy irregularity is screaming at me for it. We've got a situation where a root appears differently in one specific ablaut grade when one specific vowel follows it. Nothing else in Pazmat is like this. It just feels wrong. In the case of w-final a-bases like maw-, the Overlong grade is identical to the Long one in one specific conjugation, whereas in w-final e-bases like nyew- the Overlong grade looks like an o-base's Long grade.
But this is what is becoming very cool about Pazmat. It's actually accreting irregularity, spawning seemingly senseless divergence and, in short, looking for all the world like an actual language.

This is not a Bad Thing at all.
But isn't this a good thing? After all, no language is 100% regular, and irregular stuff like this is common. Yet, it just...I don't know. I just don't.
It's a very good thing indeed. It's a sign a) that you're skilled in the Art and b) that Pazmat is a / the language you need to focus on long term. I don't mean "if I'm still working on it next Saturday, that'll be like forèver!" kind of long term. I mean this is clearly your heart language and ought to be lovingly worked on until can't work on it any more, be that fifty or sixty or seventy years hence.

(snip)
Dear god look at this super long post. I'm sorry guys, I just find this ranting and describing my various processes and work to be therapeutic in a way. That's why they get so long, I just keep adding stuff because it's entertaining to write these posts even as they get super long.
Please don't apologise for a long meaty post of this sort. I really don't mean to come off sounding insulting, but most posts we see on language work (the half-a-sentence-that-sums-up-a-month's-work kind of posts) are like this:

Image

Your post is the kind I (and I'm sure many others here) really enjoy! It's like this:

Image

Post Reply