(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 640
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 06 Mar 2019 06:22

Sihler is my main PIE source. My copy has like 100 bookmarks in it. It has a lot of information about PIE and about the early stages of Latin and Greek. It goes point by point through the sound changes and morphology in both languages. It's about as thorough as you can get.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3284
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 06 Mar 2019 14:37

Lambuzhao wrote:
06 Mar 2019 01:28
shimobaatar wrote:
06 Mar 2019 01:03
MysteryMan23 wrote:
05 Mar 2019 23:59
Hey there!

So, I'm looking into how PIE evolved into Latin. I've found a source on the changes up to Proto-Italic, but beyond that, I've yet to really find anything I can use. Any good sources on this out there? Thanks!
Sorry that I don’t have time to give a more thorough answer right now, but here’s a section of a Wikipedia page that I’ve used as a reference myself in the past. Hopefully this is at least partially what you’re looking for.
Sihler A New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin … mebbe what ur looking for ¿?

https://www.scribd.com/document/3241322 ... -and-Latin

:wat:
IIRC, that's given as one of the references used on Wikipedia's "Old Latin" page, which then actually brings me onto my next thing, perhaps check Wikipedia's sources if you can find a copy. scribd.com and archive.org tend to be fairly good for finding certain texts, and unlike Google Books (which is still a good source), their "previews" are usually the entirety of the book.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

MysteryMan23
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 24
Joined: 10 Jul 2015 22:07

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by MysteryMan23 » 06 Mar 2019 16:07

Hmm...not quite what I'm looking for.

Truth is, I was hoping for a source that would enumerate the sound changes, ala the source I had for PIE to Proto-Italic. (Leiden and de Vaan's Etymological Dictionary of Latin and the other Italic Languages, for those curious.

Still, Sihler does seem like a good general reference. I may well check it out. Thanks!

User avatar
alynnidalar
roman
roman
Posts: 1064
Joined: 17 Aug 2014 02:22
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by alynnidalar » 06 Mar 2019 20:25

If it's sound changes you're after, the Index Diachronica has some and cites a couple print sources you could look into.

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1647
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 18:37

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 06 Mar 2019 23:11

MysteryMan23 wrote:
06 Mar 2019 16:07
Hmm...not quite what I'm looking for.

Truth is, I was hoping for a source that would enumerate the sound changes, ala the source I had for PIE to Proto-Italic. (Leiden and de Vaan's Etymological Dictionary of Latin and the other Italic Languages, for those curious.

Still, Sihler does seem like a good general reference. I may well check it out. Thanks!
Iirc, de Vaan's pretty good at explaining things. From PIt to Latin seems to be fairly straightforward, and in the individual entries he often discusses the general rules and their exceptions, so looking up specific similar roots will often help you, even if it doesn't lay everything out for you in chronological order exactly.

Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 878
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 00:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 07 Mar 2019 06:30

Likewise I am looking for resources (besides the Index) of sound changes leading from PGmc to Biblical Gothic, as well as PGmc to other languages. (I should really get around to learning German, as they always seem to have the best resources.)

I have a pdf of Wright's Gothic grammar, but its more descriptive than anything else (nothing like Kortlandt's descriptions.)
My Blog
Current Projects:
Crimean Gothic — A Gothic language spoken in Crimea (duh)
Pelsodian — A Romance language spoken around Lake Balaton
Jezik Panoski — A Slavic language spoken in the same area
An unnamed Semitic language spoken in the Caucus.

DV82LECM
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 99
Joined: 16 Dec 2016 03:31

Un-dotted...

Post by DV82LECM » 11 Mar 2019 23:25

Undotted /ɨ/, please? For a conscript...

User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5702
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: Un-dotted...

Post by Lao Kou » 12 Mar 2019 01:11

Ask DesEsseintes :mrgreen:
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4734
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 12:16

Re: Un-dotted...

Post by DesEsseintes » 12 Mar 2019 02:57



It’s not ideal, as in fact this is a small capital Ɨ, but I haven’t been able to find a better alternative.

DV82LECM
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 99
Joined: 16 Dec 2016 03:31

Re: Un-dotted...

Post by DV82LECM » 12 Mar 2019 05:16

DesEsseintes wrote:
12 Mar 2019 02:57


It’s not ideal, as in fact this is a small capital Ɨ, but I haven’t been able to find a better alternative.
You know, I did ask for that before, a while back...and I recall that we had the same dilemma. Thanks anyway, Des.

User avatar
gach
MVP
MVP
Posts: 722
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 00:26
Location: displaced from Helsinki

Re: Un-dotted...

Post by gach » 12 Mar 2019 16:07

What about a dotless ı + the combining short stroke overlay (U+0335) " ̵" > ı̵? At least for me it renders ugly on this board but that's not to say that it won't work properly in a correctly chosen font.
ImageKištaLkal sikSeic

KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 640
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 13 Mar 2019 06:56

So there's this Japanese song I'm obsessed with now called 夜行性ハイズ (Yakousei Haizu). The translation I've found is "Nocturnal Kids". But how do you get "kids" from ハイズ? Does ハイズ actually mean anything in Japanese?

User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 390
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 17:43

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ixals » 13 Mar 2019 10:38

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
13 Mar 2019 06:56
So there's this Japanese song I'm obsessed with now called 夜行性ハイズ (Yakousei Haizu). The translation I've found is "Nocturnal Kids". But how do you get "kids" from ハイズ? Does ハイズ actually mean anything in Japanese?
My theory is that it would be from Chinese 孩子 (háizi /xaɪ̯³⁵ d͡z̥z̩³/).
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :chn:, :tur:, :fra:

Zhér·dûn a tonal Germanic conlang

old stuff: Цiски | Noattȯč | Tungōnis Vīdīnōs

User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 2596
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 13 Mar 2019 10:57

I have asked this before but what happens to the theme vowel in pl1 between Italian and Latin amamus => amiamo. Where does the i come from?

User avatar
Jackk
greek
greek
Posts: 847
Joined: 04 Aug 2012 12:08
Location: tamed.speaks.points

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Jackk » 13 Mar 2019 11:04

Omzinesý wrote:
13 Mar 2019 10:57
I have asked this before but what happens to the theme vowel in pl1 between Italian and Latin amamus => amiamo. Where does the i come from?
This was just a comment on a discussion board, so not a proper source, but I found this:
-iamo comes probably from the generalisation of the subjunctive present 1st pl. of verbs like facio. In the 1st pl. the subjunctive is a high-frequency form ("let us do it").
Eresse anga paris cur neduc, a san teonga.
The only thing more dangerous than doubt is certainty.

User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 2596
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 13 Mar 2019 12:07

Jackk wrote:
13 Mar 2019 11:04
Omzinesý wrote:
13 Mar 2019 10:57
I have asked this before but what happens to the theme vowel in pl1 between Italian and Latin amamus => amiamo. Where does the i come from?
This was just a comment on a discussion board, so not a proper source, but I found this:
-iamo comes probably from the generalisation of the subjunctive present 1st pl. of verbs like facio. In the 1st pl. the subjunctive is a high-frequency form ("let us do it").
Thank you

KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 640
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 13 Mar 2019 20:09

ixals wrote:
13 Mar 2019 10:38
My theory is that it would be from Chinese 孩子 (háizi /xaɪ̯³⁵ d͡z̥z̩³/).
Thanks! I'm sure that's what it is. I never would've figured that out [:)]

KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 640
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 25 Mar 2019 16:50

Where does the Latin adverbial suffix -ē come from? (as in longē "far, long" from longus) and the superlative longissimē

Wiktionary does not offer an etymology and I couldn't find anything about it in Sihler, so where does it come from? I was thinking maybe it was a remnant of the PIE instrumental.

User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3484
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » 25 Mar 2019 18:04

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
25 Mar 2019 16:50
Where does the Latin adverbial suffix -ē come from? (as in longē "far, long" from longus) and the superlative longissimē

Wiktionary does not offer an etymology and I couldn't find anything about it in Sihler, so where does it come from? I was thinking maybe it was a remnant of the PIE instrumental.
It's buried in Sihler, p.259.

Either an -e- grade ablative or a remnant of the instrumental. facilumed = facillimê. If instrumental, then it acquired the ablative -d then later lost it.
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera

KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 640
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 25 Mar 2019 18:11

Thank you [:D] So I was thinking correctly!

Post Reply