Non-English Orthography Reform

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Sep 2012 14:02

Helios wrote: German [High German]
/aɪ/ Au au
/aʊ/ Ei ei

/ɔʏ/ Eu Eu
Are you sure?
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Zontas » 29 Sep 2012 17:27

Creyeditor wrote:
Helios wrote: German [High German]
/aɪ/ Au au
/aʊ/ Ei ei

/ɔʏ/ Eu Eu
Are you sure?
Whoops, lemme fix that.
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Sep 2012 17:39

Helios wrote: /ç/ Cc
[...]
/ts/ Cc
Sorry, it's me again. Is there any reason for your phonemes /ts/ and /ç/ being the same grapheme <c>
I like your <tj> and <dj> a lot [:)] When romanizing into German, I hate all off these *&%$§? trigraphs
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Zontas » 29 Sep 2012 19:20

Creyeditor wrote:
Helios wrote: /ç/ Cc
[...]
/ts/ Cc
Sorry, it's me again. Is there any reason for your phonemes /ts/ and /ç/ being the same grapheme <c>
I like your <tj> and <dj> a lot [:)] When romanizing into German, I hate all off these *&%$§? trigraphs

Fixed, and thank you.
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Sep 2012 21:58

The Official Helios High German National Anthem (TOHHGNA)
Einichkeit und recht und freihheit führ das deutje faterland. Dahnahx last uns ale sjtreeben, brüüderlich mit herc und hand. Einichkeit und recht und freiheit zind des glükes unter pfand. blüü im glance dieses glükes, blüühhe deutjes faterland.
Right?
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Zontas » 17 Oct 2012 21:40

Creyeditor wrote:The Official Helios High German National Anthem (TOHHGNA)
Einichkeit und recht und freihheit führ das deutje faterland. Dahnahx last uns ale sjtreeben, brüüderlich mit herc und hand. Einichkeit und recht und freiheit zind des glükes unter pfand. blüü im glance dieses glükes, blüühhe deutjes faterland.
Right?

Seems legit.
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Zontas » 17 Oct 2012 22:10

Brief Transliteration Time!

Zhuyin: All tones (if any) are the same. I already fixed the one language that can't write tones.

ㄅ-p
ㄆ-ph, p'
ㄇ-m
ㄈ-f
ㄉ-t
ㄊ-th, t'
ㄋ-n
ㄌ-l
ㄍ-k
ㄎ-kh, k'
ㄏ-h
ㄐ-tx
ㄑ-txh, tx'
ㄒ-x
ㄓ-tc
ㄔ-tch, tc'
ㄕ-c
ㄖ-r
ㄗ-ts
ㄘ-tsh, ts'
ㄣ-s
ㄤ-ang
ㄥ-eng
ㄦ-er
ㄪ-v
ㄫ-ṅ,ng
ㄬ-ñ, gn
ㄚ-a
ㄛ-o
ㄜ-ë, e'
ㄝ-e
ㄞ-ai
ㄟ-ei
ㄠ-au
ㄡ-ou
ㄢ-an
ㄣ-en
市-ũ
ㄧ-(y)i
ㄨ-(w)u
ㄩ-(ÿ)ü
ㆠ-b
ㆡ-z
ㆢ-j
ㆣ-g

Transliteration Time Over!

Kana- (I'm only doing the ones I'm changing). (key: hiragana, katakana).

じ-Zhi
ぢ-Ji
づ-Dzu
ひ-Ci
じゃ-Zha
じゅ-Zhu
じょ-Zho
ジぇ-Zhe
ひゃ-Ca
ひゅ-Cu
ヒィ-Hi
ひょ-Co
ヒぇ-Ce
フぁ-Fa
フぃ-Fi
フぅ-Hu
フぇ-Fe
フぉ-Fo
ヷ-Va
ヸ-Vi
ヴ-Vu
ヹ-Ve
ヺ-Vo
イぃ-Yi
ウぅ-Wu
ゑ,ヱ-We
ゐ,ヰ-Wi
いェ, イぇ-Ye
ツァ-Tsa
ツィ-Tsi
ツゥ-Tu
ツェ-Tse
ツォ-Tso
ヅァ-Dza
ヅィ-Dzi
ヅゥ-Du
ヅェ-Dze
ヅォ-Dzo
スぃ-Si
ズぃ-Zi
ラ゛-La
リ゛-Li
ル゛-Lu
レ゛-Le
ロ゛-Lo
ミぇ-Mye (this and the next character are just demonstrations, the initial consonant can be anything)
ミぃ-Myi
はヮ- Indicates <ha> as /wa/ (hwa)
をォ- Indicates <wo> as /o/ (hwo)
へェ- Indicates <he> as /e/ (hwe)
ち゜-Ti
チ゜-Di
ヮ-w
ゃ-y
リぁ-Lya
リぃ-Lyi
リぅ-Lyu
リぇ-Lye
リぉ-Lyo
ぅ゜-zero (with the "-u" forn before it or in the case of t, d, and h- the "-o" form)
ゥ゜-indicates non-phonemic spelling (optional)

Now let's see it in action!

Original- ザゥ゜イぇル゛ぅ゜アポッロ グぅ゜ランズぅ゜
Rōmaji- Xzayelù Aporro Gùranzù
English- Szayel Aporro Granz
Last edited by Zontas on 17 Oct 2012 23:46, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » 17 Oct 2012 23:16

French
/m/ <M m>
/n/ <N n>
/ɲ/ <Ñ ñ>
/p/ <P p>
/b/ <B b>
/t/ <T t>
/d/ <D d>
/k/ <K k>
/g/ <G g>
/f/ <F f>
/v/ <V v>
/s/ <S s>
/z/ <Z z>
/ʃ/ <Š š>
/ʒ/ <Ž ž>
/j/ <J j>
/ɥ/ <H h>
/w/ <W w>
/ʁ/ <R r>
/l/ <L l>

/i/ <I i>
/y/ <Ü ü>
/u/ <U u>
/e/ <É é>
/ø/ <Eu eu>
/o/ <Oo>
/ɛ/ <Ai ai>
/œ/ <Ö ö>
/ə/ <E e>
/ɔ/ <Au au>
/a/ <A a>
/ɑ/ <Â â>
/ɛ̃/ <Ẽ ẽ>
/œ̃/ <Ṏ ṏ> as it allready merged with /ɛ̃/ possibly also <Ẽ ẽ>
/ɔ̃/ <Õ õ>
/ɑ̃/ <Ã ã>

Affixes will be affixes and clitics will be clitics.

Nous avons laissé la fenêtre ouverte.
/nu avɔ̃ lese la fǝnɛːtʁ uvɛʁt/
[nu.za.vɔ̃.le.se.laf.nɛː.tʁu.vɛʁt]
Nuzavõlésé lafenaitr uvairt.

Irish
/pˠ/ <p>
/pʲ/ <py>
/t̪ˠ/ <t>
/tʲ/ <ty>
/k/ <k>
/c/ <ky>
/bˠ/ <b>
/bʲ/ <by>
/d̪ˠ/ <d>
/dʲ/ <dy>
/g/ <g>
/ɟ/ <gy>
/fˠ/ <f>
/fʲ/ <fy>
/sˠ/ <s>
/ʃ/ <sy>
/x/ <kh>
/ç/ <khy>
/h/ <h>
/w/ <v>
/vʲ/ <vy>
/ɣ/ <gh>
/j/ <ghy>
/mˠ/ <m>
/mʲ/ <my>
/n̪ˠ/ <n>
/nʲ/ <ny>
/ŋ/ <ng>
/ɲ/ <ngy>
/ɾˠ/ <r>
/ɾʲ/ <ry>
/l̪ˠ/ <l>
/lʲ/ <ly>

/iː/ <í>
/uː/ <ú>
/ɪ/ <i>
/ʊ/ <u>
/eː/ <é>
/oː/ <ó>
/ə/ <ë>
/ɛ/ <e>
/ɔ/ <o>
/a/ <a>
/ɑː/ <á>
/iə/ <ie>
/uə/ <ue>
/əi/ <ei>
/əu/ <eu>

Vyí syé ëgy afërk ëmakh as ë vinyóg nuery ë vyí myisyë gol hart.
[vʲiː ʃeː əɟ ˈafˠəɾˠk əˈmˠax asˠ ə ˈwɪn̠ʲoːɡ nuəɾʲ ə vʲiː ˈmʲɪʃə ɡɔl haɾˠt̪ˠ]
He was looking out the window when I went past.

Estonian
/i/ <I i>
/y/ <Ü ü>
/u/ <U u>
/e/ <E e>
/ɤ/ <Ë ë>
/o/ <Oo>
/æ/ <Ä ä>
/ɑ/ <A a>

/ɑe/ <Ae ae>
/ɑi/ <Ai ai>
/ɑo/ <Ao ao>
/ɑu/ <Au au>
/eɑ/ <Ea ea>
/ei/ <Ei ei>
/eo/ <Eo eo>
/iu/ <Iu iu>
/oɑ/ <Oa oa>
/oi/ <Oi oi>
/ou/ <Ou ou>
/ui/ <Ui ui>
/uo/ <Uo uo>
/ɤɑ/ <Ëa ëa>
/ɤe/ <Ëe ëe>
/ɤi/ <Ëi ëi>
/ɤo/ <Ëo ëo>
/ɤu/ <Ëu ëu>
/æe/ <Äe äe>
/æi/ <Äi äi>
/æo/ <Äo äo>
/æu/ <Äu äu>
/øɑ/ <Öa öa>
/øe/ <Öe öe>
/øi/ <Öi öi>
/yɑ/ <Üa üa>
/yi/ <Üi üi>

/m/ <M m>
/n/ <N n>
/nʲ/ <Ny ny>
/p/ <P p>
/t/ <T t>
/tʲ/ <Ty ty>
/k/ <K k>
/v/ <V v>
/s/ <S s>
/sʲ/ <Sy sy>
/h/ <H h>
/lʲ/ <Ly ly>
/j/ <Y y>
/r/ <R r>

There are three phonemic lengths : short "e" long "ee" and overlong "eee" for vowels and consonants.

no example, I'm sorry [:S]
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Xonen » 18 Oct 2012 10:40

Creyeditor wrote:There are three phonemic lengths : short "e" long "ee" and overlong "eee" for vowels and consonants.
A simpler analysis that has been gaining acceptance recently is that Estonian has two phonemic lengths plus a kind of pitch accent system. Stressed syllables can have one of three types of accent, traditionally called Q1, Q2 and Q3. These are distinguished partially by length (affecting not so much individual phonemes but rather the syllable as a whole), but also by tonal contour. An article by Tiit-Rein Viitso I have here describes them as "rising", "rising-falling" and "level or falling, possibly preceded by a short rise", respectively. I also found this paper by Martin Ehala, which would appear to describe Q2 as predominantly rising and Q3 as predominantly falling (note also that he considers how the contour continues on the second syllable of the word to be of importance in helpoing to distinguish between the accents). Now, Q1 can only occur in short syllables (i.e. syllables ending in a short vowel), while long syllables (i.e. ones containing a long vowel or ending in a consonant) can have either Q2 or Q3. Thus, koli 'trash' (Q1), kooli 'school.GEN' (Q2) and kooli 'school.PART' (Q3).

However, there are some good reasons for why the orthography doesn't, in most cases, distinguish between Q2 and Q3. Most importantly, it doesn't need to; their occurrence is conditioned almost entirely by morphology. That is, they don't distinguish different words, only different forms of the same word. And since a word's position in a sentence nearly always tells you what form it should be in, you can nearly always tell which accent to use.

Another reason would be that using triple letters for Q3 would look like blergh. [:P] If a way to distinguish the accents were really needed, I guess I'd go for some kind of diacritic-based system. But as I said, I don't think it is. Estonian orthography works quite well the way it is.

EDIT: Also, wait.
Creyeditor wrote:/j/ <Y y>
Why? [:|] That, especially since <j> would be left completely unused, would just have "former colony of Spain or England" written all over it. No thanks, we here in eastern Europe will stick with having been colonized by the Germans and the Swedes. [:P]

And using <y> to show palatalization would result in words like palyk /palʲk/ 'salary' and kasssy (or maybe kasysys, considering that palatalization in most dialects of Estonian tends to be strongest at the onset of the consonant and kind of trail off after that) /kas:ʲ/ 'cat'. Palatalization in Estonian is another of those things which the orthography doesn't really need to show: It's conditioned by a following /i/ in the second syllable, and becomes phonemic only in forms where the /i/ is apocopated (nominative singular, mostly). So if you know how a word is declined, you know when to palatalize the final consonant. (There are a few exceptions, but the list is short enough that one can pretty much memorize it in one evening.)

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Chandith » 18 Oct 2012 12:29

Creyeditor wrote:The Official Helios High German National Anthem (TOHHGNA)
Einichkeit und recht und freihheit führ das deutje faterland. Dahnahx last uns ale sjtreeben, brüüderlich mit herc und hand. Einichkeit und recht und freiheit zind des glükes unter pfand. blüü im glance dieses glükes, blüühhe deutjes faterland.
Right?

I once made this version for myself:

Ainixxcait und Rexxt und Fraihait, für dass doitſe Faterlannd.
Danax lasst unns alle ſtreben, Brüderlixx mitt Herrts und Hannd.
Ainixcait und Rexxt und Fraihait zinnd dess Glücces Unnterpfannd.
Blü imm Glanntse dizes Glücces, blüe doitſes Faterlannd.


I still think, it's awesome, but i guess, it won't have a big acceptance rate among other Germans.

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » 18 Oct 2012 19:53

Xonen wrote: A simpler analysis that has been gaining acceptance recently is that Estonian has two phonemic lengths plus a kind of pitch accent system. [...] If a way to distinguish the accents were really needed, I guess I'd go for some kind of diacritic-based system.
I already thought about that, but Umlaut plus another diacrit just looks awkward (see my French Ortography :D )
Xonen wrote: Why? [:|] That, especially since <j> would be left completely unused, would just have "former colony of Spain or England" written all over it. No thanks, we here in eastern Europe will stick with having been colonized by the Germans and the Swedes. [:P]
I am german, so I always feel egocentric when using <j> for /j/ instead of <y> [:S]
Xonen wrote: And using <y> to show palatalization would result in words like palyk /palʲk/ 'salary' and kasssy (or maybe kasysys, considering that palatalization in most dialects of Estonian tends to be strongest at the onset of the consonant and kind of trail off after that) /kas:ʲ/ 'cat'.
I think these words look just awsome [:)] <kasysys> [<3] /kas:ʲ/ [<3]
Xonen wrote: Palatalization in Estonian is another of those things which the orthography doesn't really need to show: It's conditioned by a following /i/ in the second syllable, and becomes phonemic only in forms where the /i/ is apocopated (nominative singular, mostly). So if you know how a word is declined, you know when to palatalize the final consonant. (There are a few exceptions, but the list is short enough that one can pretty much memorize it in one evening.)
I didn't know that. If that's true, Estonian Orthography is not really a challenge for me [:P]
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Xonen » 18 Oct 2012 22:21

Creyeditor wrote:
Xonen wrote: A simpler analysis that has been gaining acceptance recently is that Estonian has two phonemic lengths plus a kind of pitch accent system. [...] If a way to distinguish the accents were really needed, I guess I'd go for some kind of diacritic-based system.
I already thought about that, but Umlaut plus another diacrit just looks awkward
True, but IMO, triple letters look even more so. Matter of taste, I guess. [:)]
Xonen wrote: Why? [:|] That, especially since <j> would be left completely unused, would just have "former colony of Spain or England" written all over it. No thanks, we here in eastern Europe will stick with having been colonized by the Germans and the Swedes. [:P]
I am german, so I always feel egocentric when using <j> for /j/ instead of <y> [:S]
How come? Do you also feel egocentric when using, say, <u> for /u/ or <k> for /k/?

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » 18 Oct 2012 23:32

Xonen wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
Xonen wrote: Why? [:|] That, especially since <j> would be left completely unused, would just have "former colony of Spain or England" written all over it. No thanks, we here in eastern Europe will stick with having been colonized by the Germans and the Swedes. [:P]
I am german, so I always feel egocentric when using <j> for /j/ instead of <y> [:S]
How come? Do you also feel egocentric when using, say, <u> for /u/ or <k> for /k/?
No, I never feel egocentric about vowels, because english basically has no vowel represantation system, and german system is just the best. I never feel egocentric about the </k/> maybe because there is no other pronounciation for <k> than /k/ even for english speakers. I guess that the english speaking audience is rather dominant in my mind [;)]
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Ossicone » 18 Oct 2012 23:40

I thought <k> was always /k/.
Then Swedish happened. [:'(]

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » 18 Oct 2012 23:50

Ossicone wrote:I thought <k> was always /k/.
Then Swedish happened. [:'(]
I know about that. I guess they should use <c> instead. I mean a palatalized k. Was zum Teufel! [>_<]
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Xing » 18 Oct 2012 23:52

Ossicone wrote:I thought <k> was always /k/.
Then Swedish happened. [:'(]
Turning your world upside-down...

In Hawaiian I think it can be any non-glottal, non-labial obstruent.

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Ossicone » 19 Oct 2012 00:05

Indeed. The k-t thing still gets me.

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Xing » 19 Oct 2012 00:09

Anyway, what do you guys think about Swedish orthography?

The current Swedish orthography dates back to 1906.

What's it's pros and cons? Does anything need to be changed?

Would we be better off with the old, pre-1906 orthography?

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Ossicone » 19 Oct 2012 00:17

I dunno. Sometimes I like the 'historical' letters, like the <h> in <hjärta>. But sometimes I wonder why not just get rid of them.

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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » 19 Oct 2012 00:21

I do not know much about swedish spelling, but I really like the <å> [:)]
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