"super-fronted" vowels

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greatbuddha
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"super-fronted" vowels

Post by greatbuddha » 10 Jun 2013 01:52

Would any of you know what you call vowels where you push the tongue so far forward that the root of the tongue is between the teeth and the rest of tongue is stuffed at the base of the teeth? (it sounds sort of like an /i/ or an /e/ depending on how open it is, but with a very strong lisp quality, and what languages might use this sound?
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Ithisa
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by Ithisa » 10 Jun 2013 02:08

I don't think it would be acoustically distinguishable from a front vowel.
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by greatbuddha » 10 Jun 2013 03:01

no, try making it yourself, it makes a very distinct sound, I can definitely distinguish it.Requires a lot of tounge acrobatics, try shoving your tounge forward until the root is jammed under the hard palate and then try making the /i/ sound, what is that called?
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Click
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by Click » 10 Jun 2013 06:12

It's probably a fricated vowel.

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Xing
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by Xing » 10 Jun 2013 13:09

Click wrote:It's probably a fricated vowel.
My bet is that it's a syllabic (inter)dental fricative [ð̩], or perhaps approximant [ð̩̞]

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Ceresz
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by Ceresz » 10 Jun 2013 13:46

Could you perhaps post a recording of this "super-fronted" vowel?

greatbuddha
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by greatbuddha » 10 Jun 2013 17:36

I think this is an example, it said advanced togue root, but it doesn't sound quite like what I'm thinking of
http://pages.uoregon.edu/dlpayne/maasai/ATR.htm
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CMunk
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by CMunk » 10 Jun 2013 19:04

greatbuddha wrote:[...] the root of the tongue is between the teeth and the rest of tongue is stuffed at the base of the teeth? [...]
Doesn't sound anatomically practical...
Xing wrote:
Click wrote:It's probably a fricated vowel.
My bet is that it's a syllabic (inter)dental fricative [ð̩], or perhaps approximant [ð̩̞]
Danish has the latter. Dental vowels are nice :)
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greatbuddha
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by greatbuddha » 10 Jun 2013 22:12

No, the articulation is more palatal. Stick the tip of your tongue at the base of the BOTTOM teeth, not the top, and push the rest of your tongue to the top of your mouth (you have to open your jaw allot to do this.) if you try to make a palatal fricative in this position, it sounds like a bee buzzing, with a much "higher" (i don't know how else to put it) sound than a normal palatal fricative.
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Xonen
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by Xonen » 10 Jun 2013 22:49

greatbuddha wrote:No, the articulation is more palatal. Stick the tip of your tongue at the base of the BOTTOM teeth, not the top, and push the rest of your tongue to the top of your mouth (you have to open your jaw allot to do this.) if you try to make a palatal fricative in this position, it sounds like a bee buzzing, with a much "higher" (i don't know how else to put it) sound than a normal palatal fricative.
All right, I may have been able to produce a sound that sort of fits this description. However, there's no way I could integrate such mouth movements into normal speech - and I kinda doubt there's any natlang that does. Just because the human mouth is technically capable of producing a sound doesn't necessarily mean it has to be used as a phoneme somewhere; languages tend to prefer sounds that can be formed with fairly little effort and allow changing between each other in a manner of milliseconds.

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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by greatbuddha » 10 Jun 2013 23:07

Never mind, found it, its called a lateral coarticulation, and is a common speech pathology, hence why it sound lispy, and they do occur in some languages. I overestimated how much people on this board knew, elector dark told me what it was.
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Re: "super-fronted" vowels

Post by Ceresz » 10 Jun 2013 23:28

I've never heard of "lateral coarticulation", nor can I find any decent links on the subject. Care to help me out? Either way it doesn't seem like a very practical sound, like Xonen pointed out.

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