False cognates

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Shemtov
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 10 Aug 2018 07:20

This might be a stretch, depending on your dialect's semantic spread of the first term:
:eng: Adviser, Vizier
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Re: False cognates

Post by Dormouse559 » 28 Aug 2018 02:16

:eng: lace, lasso
:eng: leash

While all three words can ultimately be traced to Latin, "lace" and "lasso" both come from :lat: laqueus, and "leash" descends from the verb :lat: laxo.

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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 31 Aug 2018 16:41

Sinosphere words for "signal" derived from Chinese 信號(Chinese /ɕin⁵¹ xɑʊ̯⁵¹/, Korean /ˈɕʰiːnβo̞/, Japanese /ɕĩŋɡo̞ː/) v.s. words for "signal" in a variety of European languages derived from Late Latin signālis
...

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Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » 31 Aug 2018 17:07

Wow, Japanese is especially interesting.
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 31 Aug 2018 17:37

Creyeditor wrote:
31 Aug 2018 17:07
Wow, Japanese is especially interesting.
yes lol

and the words bear the same meaning.
...

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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 02 Sep 2018 23:38

There seem to be vast numbers of false cognates in basic English words for geography.

Two that just surprised me:
gill/ghyll vs. gully.
Given that -y is a common diminutive, and that u/y is a common ablaut alternation, these words, which mean the same thing in most places (though in the weald, 'ghyll' is a word for the brook itself, rather than for a gully that may or may not hold a brook), look virtually certain to be related. But they're not - 'gill' is Germanic, via Norse, while 'gully' is Latin, via French.

cot/cote/cottage vs. cot.
"Cot", and more commonly the feminine form "cote", are words for the place where an animal sleeps; they're also an old English term for a house. The same term, with a suffix, comes to us via French as "cottage", again a word for a house. So you'd think that "cot", a place where a human infant sleeps, was in some way related to these words. But it's not - it's from Sanskrit, via Hindi.


While we're at it, a couple that are perhaps less surprising, but still easy mistakes:
chit and child - both meaning 'child', but the former is native alternative to 'kid' (young goat), while the latter isn't.
cull (an individual of low worth) and cull (a foolish individual). Many culls are culls, but the former is from the verb 'to cull' (that which is unworthy of saving from culling) and the latter is from the Latin word for a testicle.
cull (to kill) and kill (to kill). Although culling is a form of killing, and killing a form of culling, and although u/i alternations are common, the words are actually unrelated - 'cull' is from Latin (ultimate 'to collect') and 'kill' is a deformed variant of 'quell'.
Middle Dutch kollen (to knock down, to hit on the head) vs killen/kellen (to kill) - again, the latter is probably related to 'quell', while the former is from a word for 'head'.
Norse kollr ('head') and Latin collus ('neck')
Norse kollr ('mountain top') and Latin collis ('hill')
Icelandic kollur (affectionate address to a child) and Norwegian kull (litter of young born at one time)
cull (selection or set of animals or plants) and Norwegian kull
cull (mass killing of animals) and Scottish Gaelic coll (destruction)

tick (tiny parasite), tick (small mark), tick (coarse fabric covered in small marks and home to tiny parasites) and tick (placename element meaning 'goat')
tick (tiny parasite), Middle English tichen (baby goat), and titch (very small thing). The latter in fact indicates 'similar in size to Harry Relph, a comedian who looked something like Thomas Castro, who was widely believed to be Roger Tichbourne, but was imprisoned for actually being Arthur Orten'. As I'm sure you knew, or could easily have guessed.
Any of the above, and tyke (impudent child). Also the latter vs tyro. The latter is from the Latin word for a young soldier, while the former is from the Norse word for a bitch.

fawn (young of an animal) vs fawn (seek to please, be obsequious to).

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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 04 Sep 2018 01:14

coop vs cubby vs cubicle

And bothy (small house) isn't related to... well OK, I can't find a modern reflex that sounds like it, but it's somehow not related to Germanic *bo:thla (house). The latter gives, depending on dialect, English 'bold' (not that 'bold', the other one) or 'bottle' (not that 'bottle', the other one), though I think it 'ought' to give 'bothel'.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 21 Sep 2018 20:38

This might be a stretch, which is why I hadn't posted it yet: :eng: Nota bene :isr: /bina/ "Understanding"
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Re: False cognates

Post by Tristan Radicz » 21 Sep 2018 21:39

Salmoneus wrote:
04 Sep 2018 01:14
And bothy (small house) isn't related to... well OK, I can't find a modern reflex that sounds like it, but it's somehow not related to Germanic *bo:thla (house).
Isn't bothy (together with booth) from Old Norse búð (< PG *būþō ~*bōþōn)? If this is the case, then both bothy and bold, bottle (and their predecessors) are ultimately derived from *bō⁄ūwaną.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 22 Sep 2018 00:32

Tristan Radicz wrote:
21 Sep 2018 21:39
Salmoneus wrote:
04 Sep 2018 01:14
And bothy (small house) isn't related to... well OK, I can't find a modern reflex that sounds like it, but it's somehow not related to Germanic *bo:thla (house).
Isn't bothy (together with booth) from Old Norse búð (< PG *būþō ~*bōþōn)? If this is the case, then both bothy and bold, bottle (and their predecessors) are ultimately derived from *bō⁄ūwaną.
You reckon búdh comes from búana? Where does the -dh come from, then? Not the same place as the fricative in bóthla, because that's the PIE -tlom instrument suffix. You think it's a -ithó abstract noun with the -i- mysteriously vanishing, maybe?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you're right, you know more than me (which isn't hard, but makes it hard for me to respond...)...

[Actually, I hadn't thought of a connexion at the level of Proto-Germanic, or indeed in this case (because apparently the bothla form is a PIE derivation) PIE itself. More just that there wasn't any immediate connexion between them.]

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Re: False cognates

Post by Tristan Radicz » 22 Sep 2018 01:30

Salmoneus wrote:
22 Sep 2018 00:32
You reckon búdh comes from búana? Where does the -dh come from, then? Not the same place as the fricative in bóthla, because that's the PIE -tlom instrument suffix. You think it's a -ithó abstract noun with the -i- mysteriously vanishing, maybe?
I quoted the form *būþō ~*bōþōn after V. Orel's Handbook of Germanic Etymology, which lists búð as a reflex of it together with German Bude (< MHG buode) and MLG bōde; now I checked wiktionary and I see this is a mistake, as búð is an i-stem noun. So, *būþiz indeed (buode and bōde, on the other hand, look definitely as if from *bōþō(n), but that change of the stem must be secondary and by analogy with something).

And yes, you have a point, they're not cognates in the strictest sense (as in "derived from the same form"); they only share their root.

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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 23 Sep 2018 19:32

:jpn: 銭 sen (obsolete unit of currency, equal to 1/100 of a yen)
:eng: cent (1/100 of a dollar)
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: False cognates

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 23 Sep 2018 20:32

:eng: Earth (and :deu: Erde) - :ara: أَرْض 'ard "earth"

I'm sure this one has been brought up many times before, but I just read it in a book about Arab history and that's just weird. I mean, how can they not be related? One has to wonder...

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Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf » 24 Sep 2018 20:00

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
23 Sep 2018 20:32
:eng: Earth (and :deu: Erde) - :ara: أَرْض 'ard "earth"

I'm sure this one has been brought up many times before, but I just read it in a book about Arab history and that's just weird. I mean, how can they not be related? One has to wonder...
There are speculations that this could be a Neolithic Wanderwort (originally meaning 'crop field' or 'soil'), being borrowed into both IE and Semitic from the unknown language of the first farmers in the Near East, together with some others such as the word for 'bull'.
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Re: False cognates

Post by All4Ɇn » 27 Sep 2018 02:46

:jpn: 哀歌 aika "elegy" or "Lamentations"
:isr: אֵיכָה 'eikhá "Lamentations"

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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 03 Oct 2018 23:12

This is loose, as at is really the same idiom being used across time, space, and linguistic families, but they sound nothing alike, but I'd thought I'd share it:
:eng: Streetwalker Mishnaic :isr: /josˤejɛθ haħuwsˤ/ "id.; Lit. 'she who goes outside'"
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 03 Oct 2018 23:19

:hkg: /kei˨/ "Prostitute" :eng: Geisha "Japanese Prostitute". The latter is misapplication of a word for "Traditional Japanese Female Dancer"
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 06 Oct 2018 22:27

Salmoneus wrote:
04 Sep 2018 01:14
coop vs cubby vs cubicle
And come to think of it: cube vs cubicle. -icle is such a common diminutive, and the two are so close in meaning, that it seems almost impossible that they're not related. But "cubicle" is actually an instrumental derivative of a verb for lying down - hence, "lying down place" - whereas 'cube' is from Greek, possibly in turn from a Lydian word for dice.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 08 Oct 2018 20:40

WeepingElf wrote:
24 Sep 2018 20:00
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
23 Sep 2018 20:32
:eng: Earth (and :deu: Erde) - :ara: أَرْض 'ard "earth"

I'm sure this one has been brought up many times before, but I just read it in a book about Arab history and that's just weird. I mean, how can they not be related? One has to wonder...
There are speculations that this could be a Neolithic Wanderwort (originally meaning 'crop field' or 'soil'), being borrowed into both IE and Semitic from the unknown language of the first farmers in the Near East, together with some others such as the word for 'bull'.
The PIE source is *h₁er-, without the final coronal, it shows up in North Germanic as Icelandic <aur> /øyːr/ "Mud", East Germanic in Gothic < aurahjons > "Tombs", in Albanian with a /v/ attached to the beginning as <varr> "grave", and in Celtic, possibly in Welsh <Erw> "Field". The PIE word IMHO probably meant "used or dug/plowed ground" and the meaning was narrowed in West Germanic. As for the word for Bull, it shows up only in two families, which IMHO indicates borrowing, a more prototypical Wanderwort for me is the source of :eng: "Mare" showing up in the Altaic Sprachbund as Mongolian морь, Manchu Morin,Sino-Tibetan as Old :zho: (Zhangzhang) /*mraːʔ/and in Koreanic as :kor: 말 /mal/.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 12 Oct 2018 00:19

:jpn: Classical Japanese ます -masu (honorific verb suffix)
:jpn: Modern Japanese ます -masu (polite verb suffix)

You would think that the latter would come from the former, but apparently they’re unrelated.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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