False cognates

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2671
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 31 Mar 2018 21:55

:hkg: 化石 faa3sek6 "fossil" - :eng: "fossil"
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2671
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 02 Apr 2018 03:25

:jpn: Okinawan 五ち ichichi "five" (with counter) - :jpn: Japanese 一 ichi "one"

(The Okinawan word is actually cognate to Japanese 五つ itsutsu, which has the same meaning)
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

User avatar
Znex
roman
roman
Posts: 1177
Joined: 12 Aug 2013 13:05
Location: Australia

Re: False cognates

Post by Znex » 12 Apr 2018 13:23

:por: obrigado vs. :jpn: ありがとう arigatō "thank you"
:eng: : [tick] | :grc: :wls: : [:|] | :chn: :isr: : [:S] | :nor: :deu: :rom: :ind: :con: : [:x]
Conlangs: Pofp'ash, Ikwawese, Old Quelgic, Nisukil Pʰakwi, Apsiska

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 2965
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 12 Apr 2018 16:22

Khemehekis wrote:
29 Jul 2013 06:36
If /m/ is a typical first consonant and /t/ a typical second consonant, speakers all around the world would think /m/ the most natural sound for a first-person pronoun and /t/ the most natural sound for a second-person pronoun.
Another possibility is that the pattern of having /m/ as the initial consonant of the 1st pronoun singular and /t/ as the initial consonant of the 2nd pronoun singular is because they are really cognates, either the similarities were formed by borrowing(the borrowing of singular pronouns is not common, but it might have happened, it is claimed that the whole pronoun system of Piraha might be a borrowing from Nheengatu) or that they had a very old common ancestor which is impossible to reconstruct.

Besides the /m/ as the initial consonant of the 1st pronoun singular and /t/ as the initial consonant of the 2nd pronoun singular thing, which is basically a northern Eurasian thing, there's another pattern of personal pronouns which existed among aboriginal languages of the west coast of the Americans: /n/ as a part of the 1st pronoun singular and /m/ as a part of the 2nd pronoun singular
私のアツい人工言語活動!言カツ!始まります!!

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4493
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » 12 Apr 2018 20:50

Also a Papuan thing (across family boundaries IIRC) is n- for the first person and k- for the second person.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 2965
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 13 Apr 2018 01:01

Creyeditor wrote:
12 Apr 2018 20:50
Also a Papuan thing (across family boundaries IIRC) is n- for the first person and k- for the second person.
nice (:

back to false cognates, maybe the Papuan 1st /n/-pronouns and the American 1st /n/-pronouns can be an example of false cognates?
私のアツい人工言語活動!言カツ!始まります!!

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4493
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » 13 Apr 2018 10:10

We should find concrete examples then, probably [:)]
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2767
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 03:06

Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 13 Apr 2018 20:38

k1234567890y wrote:
13 Apr 2018 01:01
Creyeditor wrote:
12 Apr 2018 20:50
Also a Papuan thing (across family boundaries IIRC) is n- for the first person and k- for the second person.
nice (:

back to false cognates, maybe the Papuan 1st /n/-pronouns and the American 1st /n/-pronouns can be an example of false cognates?
Also, Semitic and other families placed in Afro-Asiatic have /n/ 1P and /k/ 2P, though Semitic alternates with /t/ or /nt/ /k/ being the enclitic form, though Neo-Aramaic, and divergent Arabic Dialects use /t͡ʃ/ and some Ethiopic languages use /h/.
Last edited by Shemtov on 13 Apr 2018 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 2965
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 13 Apr 2018 20:45

Shemtov wrote:
13 Apr 2018 20:38

Also, Semitic and other families placed in Afro-Asiatic have /n/ 1P and /k/ 2P, though Semitic alternates with /t/.
wow, that's really a big coincidence.
私のアツい人工言語活動!言カツ!始まります!!

User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2767
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 03:06

Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 13 Apr 2018 20:51

Though Akkadian seems to have dropped the /k/ enclitic forms for only /t/, while /k/ became the 1P enclitic. [O.O]
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 2965
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 13 Apr 2018 21:06

Shemtov wrote:
13 Apr 2018 20:51
Though Akkadian seems to have dropped the /k/ enclitic forms for only /t/, while /k/ became the 1P enclitic. [O.O]
maybe the 2S enclitic form and the 1P enclitic form have different etymologies?
私のアツい人工言語活動!言カツ!始まります!!

User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2767
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 03:06

Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 13 Apr 2018 21:25

k1234567890y wrote:
13 Apr 2018 21:06
Shemtov wrote:
13 Apr 2018 20:51
Though Akkadian seems to have dropped the /k/ enclitic forms for only /t/, while /k/ became the 1P enclitic. [O.O]
maybe the 2S enclitic form and the 1P enclitic form have different etymologies?
P stands the "Person", not Plural.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 2965
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 13 Apr 2018 22:00

Shemtov wrote:
13 Apr 2018 21:25
k1234567890y wrote:
13 Apr 2018 21:06
Shemtov wrote:
13 Apr 2018 20:51
Though Akkadian seems to have dropped the /k/ enclitic forms for only /t/, while /k/ became the 1P enclitic. [O.O]
maybe the 2S enclitic form and the 1P enclitic form have different etymologies?
P stands the "Person", not Plural.
ok

sorry for misunderstanding
私のアツい人工言語活動!言カツ!始まります!!

User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2767
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 03:06

Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 07 May 2018 01:54

:kor: :ara: /wa/. Both mean "and", though the :kor: form alternates with, and may be a shortening of /kwa/.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

User avatar
KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
Posts: 584
Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10
Location: Stanford, California

Re: False cognates

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 07 May 2018 19:45

Just learned that :eng: heather and heath are not cognates. That's surprising.
Don't live to conlang; conlang to live.

My conlang: Image Lihmelinyan

User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6235
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: False cognates

Post by eldin raigmore » 08 May 2018 06:55

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
07 May 2018 19:45
Just learned that :eng: heather and heath are not cognates. That's surprising.
They seem to be saying that they _may_ be unrelated; not that they definitely _are_ unrelated.

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4493
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » 08 May 2018 07:58

German '(und) dann' and Indonesian 'dan' both can be used to introduce sentences whose events temporally follow the events of the preceding sentence.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2671
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 21 May 2018 19:06

Shemtov wrote:
07 May 2018 01:54
:kor: :ara: /wa/. Both mean "and", though the :kor: form alternates with, and may be a shortening of /kwa/.
Adding on to this, apparently wa means “and” in Ainu as well.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5669
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: False cognates

Post by Lao Kou » 09 Jun 2018 13:13

:idn: suka, :jpn: 好き suki "like"
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

Khemehekis
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2133
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 08:36
Location: California über alles

Re: False cognates

Post by Khemehekis » 09 Jun 2018 21:48

:chn: 淡褐色 dàn hèsè / :eng: hazel
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 57,500 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

Post Reply