False cognates

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shimobaatar
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Re: False cognates

Post by shimobaatar » 31 Jul 2018 13:45

k1234567890y wrote:
31 Jul 2018 07:09
shimobaatar wrote:
30 Jul 2018 23:17
k1234567890y wrote:
30 Jul 2018 20:40
Pabappa wrote:
30 Jul 2018 20:16
Apparently it survives as "even steven" .... I'd always assumed that that was just a rhyme based on the proper name.
how so?
What's unclear?
was wondering what made him/her think the proper noun possibility at first
They likely made that assumption, as I did myself, because the name "Steven/Stephen" and this "steven" are pronounced identically, at least in my variety of English. Additionally, the name is far more common, especially given that it appears that, at least in most dialects, "steven" only survives, as Pabappa said, in the phrase "even steven".

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Re: False cognates

Post by Pabappa » 31 Jul 2018 20:42

thanks, yeah. i just took it to be one of those phrases like "okey-dokey" where the first part is meaningful but the second is just a rhyme. one other example that surprised me is "willy-nilly", where both parts are meaningful.

:deu: Vielfraß is interesting, because that has led to the use of the word glutton in English as a synonym for wolverine. a folk etymology that got translated.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Imralu » 01 Aug 2018 03:11

shimobaatar wrote:
31 Jul 2018 13:45
k1234567890y wrote:
31 Jul 2018 07:09
shimobaatar wrote:
30 Jul 2018 23:17
k1234567890y wrote:
30 Jul 2018 20:40
Pabappa wrote:
30 Jul 2018 20:16
Apparently it survives as "even steven" .... I'd always assumed that that was just a rhyme based on the proper name.
how so?
What's unclear?
was wondering what made him/her think the proper noun possibility at first
They likely made that assumption, as I did myself, because the name "Steven/Stephen" and this "steven" are pronounced identically, at least in my variety of English. Additionally, the name is far more common, especially given that it appears that, at least in most dialects, "steven" only survives, as Pabappa said, in the phrase "even steven".
In fact, how would the average person who hasn't specifically learnt it as a matter of trivia, even know that there ever was a common noun "steven"?
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shimobaatar
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Re: False cognates

Post by shimobaatar » 01 Aug 2018 05:43

Imralu wrote:
01 Aug 2018 03:11
shimobaatar wrote:
31 Jul 2018 13:45
k1234567890y wrote:
31 Jul 2018 07:09
shimobaatar wrote:
30 Jul 2018 23:17
k1234567890y wrote:
30 Jul 2018 20:40
Pabappa wrote:
30 Jul 2018 20:16
Apparently it survives as "even steven" .... I'd always assumed that that was just a rhyme based on the proper name.
how so?
What's unclear?
was wondering what made him/her think the proper noun possibility at first
They likely made that assumption, as I did myself, because the name "Steven/Stephen" and this "steven" are pronounced identically, at least in my variety of English. Additionally, the name is far more common, especially given that it appears that, at least in most dialects, "steven" only survives, as Pabappa said, in the phrase "even steven".
In fact, how would the average person who hasn't specifically learnt it as a matter of trivia, even know that there ever was a common noun "steven"?
Wiktionary seems to indicate that it isn't obsolete in some dialects in northern England and Scotland, but for those of us who don't speak those dialects, exactly. How would we know?

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k1234567890y
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 05 Aug 2018 06:00

English -s and Tsez -z (oblique plural ending)

English kid and Tsez kid "girl"
...

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Shemtov
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 09 Aug 2018 02:39

If the Glottalic Reconstruction of PIE is right, it bears a striking resemblance to the stop system of Modern Korean.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Xonen
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Re: False cognates

Post by Xonen » 09 Aug 2018 11:01

Shemtov wrote:
09 Aug 2018 02:39
If the Glottalic Reconstruction of PIE is right, it bears a striking resemblance to the stop system of Modern Korean.
Okay, I guess these threads we have here have more or less demonstrated that pretty much anything counts as a false cognate or unfortunate coincidence or whatever in somebody's opinion... but still, I think this one's a bit of a stretch. By definition, "cognates are words that have a common etymological origin", and phonological inventories aren't words. What we'd have here would be a case of a parallel phonological structure, which are quite common cross-linguistically - and indeed, the fact that there are apparently very few if any known parallels for the usual reconstruction of the PIE stop inventory is the main reason why alternative theories like the glottalic one are so tempting.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 10 Aug 2018 06:20

This might be a stretch, depending on your dialect's semantic spread of the first term:
:eng: Adviser, Vizier
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Re: False cognates

Post by Dormouse559 » 28 Aug 2018 01:16

:eng: lace, lasso
:eng: leash

While all three words can ultimately be traced to Latin, "lace" and "lasso" both come from :lat: laqueus, and "leash" descends from the verb :lat: laxo.

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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 31 Aug 2018 15:41

Sinosphere words for "signal" derived from Chinese 信號(Chinese /ɕin⁵¹ xɑʊ̯⁵¹/, Korean /ˈɕʰiːnβo̞/, Japanese /ɕĩŋɡo̞ː/) v.s. words for "signal" in a variety of European languages derived from Late Latin signālis
...

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Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » 31 Aug 2018 16:07

Wow, Japanese is especially interesting.
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 31 Aug 2018 16:37

Creyeditor wrote:
31 Aug 2018 16:07
Wow, Japanese is especially interesting.
yes lol

and the words bear the same meaning.
...

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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 02 Sep 2018 22:38

There seem to be vast numbers of false cognates in basic English words for geography.

Two that just surprised me:
gill/ghyll vs. gully.
Given that -y is a common diminutive, and that u/y is a common ablaut alternation, these words, which mean the same thing in most places (though in the weald, 'ghyll' is a word for the brook itself, rather than for a gully that may or may not hold a brook), look virtually certain to be related. But they're not - 'gill' is Germanic, via Norse, while 'gully' is Latin, via French.

cot/cote/cottage vs. cot.
"Cot", and more commonly the feminine form "cote", are words for the place where an animal sleeps; they're also an old English term for a house. The same term, with a suffix, comes to us via French as "cottage", again a word for a house. So you'd think that "cot", a place where a human infant sleeps, was in some way related to these words. But it's not - it's from Sanskrit, via Hindi.


While we're at it, a couple that are perhaps less surprising, but still easy mistakes:
chit and child - both meaning 'child', but the former is native alternative to 'kid' (young goat), while the latter isn't.
cull (an individual of low worth) and cull (a foolish individual). Many culls are culls, but the former is from the verb 'to cull' (that which is unworthy of saving from culling) and the latter is from the Latin word for a testicle.
cull (to kill) and kill (to kill). Although culling is a form of killing, and killing a form of culling, and although u/i alternations are common, the words are actually unrelated - 'cull' is from Latin (ultimate 'to collect') and 'kill' is a deformed variant of 'quell'.
Middle Dutch kollen (to knock down, to hit on the head) vs killen/kellen (to kill) - again, the latter is probably related to 'quell', while the former is from a word for 'head'.
Norse kollr ('head') and Latin collus ('neck')
Norse kollr ('mountain top') and Latin collis ('hill')
Icelandic kollur (affectionate address to a child) and Norwegian kull (litter of young born at one time)
cull (selection or set of animals or plants) and Norwegian kull
cull (mass killing of animals) and Scottish Gaelic coll (destruction)

tick (tiny parasite), tick (small mark), tick (coarse fabric covered in small marks and home to tiny parasites) and tick (placename element meaning 'goat')
tick (tiny parasite), Middle English tichen (baby goat), and titch (very small thing). The latter in fact indicates 'similar in size to Harry Relph, a comedian who looked something like Thomas Castro, who was widely believed to be Roger Tichbourne, but was imprisoned for actually being Arthur Orten'. As I'm sure you knew, or could easily have guessed.
Any of the above, and tyke (impudent child). Also the latter vs tyro. The latter is from the Latin word for a young soldier, while the former is from the Norse word for a bitch.

fawn (young of an animal) vs fawn (seek to please, be obsequious to).

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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 04 Sep 2018 00:14

coop vs cubby vs cubicle

And bothy (small house) isn't related to... well OK, I can't find a modern reflex that sounds like it, but it's somehow not related to Germanic *bo:thla (house). The latter gives, depending on dialect, English 'bold' (not that 'bold', the other one) or 'bottle' (not that 'bottle', the other one), though I think it 'ought' to give 'bothel'.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 21 Sep 2018 19:38

This might be a stretch, which is why I hadn't posted it yet: :eng: Nota bene :isr: /bina/ "Understanding"
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Tristan Radicz » 21 Sep 2018 20:39

Salmoneus wrote:
04 Sep 2018 00:14
And bothy (small house) isn't related to... well OK, I can't find a modern reflex that sounds like it, but it's somehow not related to Germanic *bo:thla (house).
Isn't bothy (together with booth) from Old Norse búð (< PG *būþō ~*bōþōn)? If this is the case, then both bothy and bold, bottle (and their predecessors) are ultimately derived from *bō⁄ūwaną.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 21 Sep 2018 23:32

Tristan Radicz wrote:
21 Sep 2018 20:39
Salmoneus wrote:
04 Sep 2018 00:14
And bothy (small house) isn't related to... well OK, I can't find a modern reflex that sounds like it, but it's somehow not related to Germanic *bo:thla (house).
Isn't bothy (together with booth) from Old Norse búð (< PG *būþō ~*bōþōn)? If this is the case, then both bothy and bold, bottle (and their predecessors) are ultimately derived from *bō⁄ūwaną.
You reckon búdh comes from búana? Where does the -dh come from, then? Not the same place as the fricative in bóthla, because that's the PIE -tlom instrument suffix. You think it's a -ithó abstract noun with the -i- mysteriously vanishing, maybe?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you're right, you know more than me (which isn't hard, but makes it hard for me to respond...)...

[Actually, I hadn't thought of a connexion at the level of Proto-Germanic, or indeed in this case (because apparently the bothla form is a PIE derivation) PIE itself. More just that there wasn't any immediate connexion between them.]

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Re: False cognates

Post by Tristan Radicz » 22 Sep 2018 00:30

Salmoneus wrote:
21 Sep 2018 23:32
You reckon búdh comes from búana? Where does the -dh come from, then? Not the same place as the fricative in bóthla, because that's the PIE -tlom instrument suffix. You think it's a -ithó abstract noun with the -i- mysteriously vanishing, maybe?
I quoted the form *būþō ~*bōþōn after V. Orel's Handbook of Germanic Etymology, which lists búð as a reflex of it together with German Bude (< MHG buode) and MLG bōde; now I checked wiktionary and I see this is a mistake, as búð is an i-stem noun. So, *būþiz indeed (buode and bōde, on the other hand, look definitely as if from *bōþō(n), but that change of the stem must be secondary and by analogy with something).

And yes, you have a point, they're not cognates in the strictest sense (as in "derived from the same form"); they only share their root.

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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 23 Sep 2018 18:32

:jpn: 銭 sen (obsolete unit of currency, equal to 1/100 of a yen)
:eng: cent (1/100 of a dollar)
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: False cognates

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 23 Sep 2018 19:32

:eng: Earth (and :deu: Erde) - :ara: أَرْض 'ard "earth"

I'm sure this one has been brought up many times before, but I just read it in a book about Arab history and that's just weird. I mean, how can they not be related? One has to wonder...

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