False cognates

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GrandPiano
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 25 Nov 2018 14:43

Sumerian 𒉺𒇻 sipad “shephard”
:eng: shephard

Sumerian 𒋗 šu “hand”
:chn: 手 shǒu “hand”

The last two are even graphically sort of similar - a vertical line with several horizontal lines.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf » 25 Nov 2018 15:01

GrandPiano wrote:
25 Nov 2018 14:43
Sumerian 𒋗 šu “hand”
:chn: 手 shǒu “hand”

The last two are even graphically sort of similar - a vertical line with several horizontal lines.
Which is of course because both started as a drawing of a hand. Such resemblances are common in logographic scripts.
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 25 Nov 2018 16:30

WeepingElf wrote:
25 Nov 2018 15:01
GrandPiano wrote:
25 Nov 2018 14:43
Sumerian 𒋗 šu “hand”
:chn: 手 shǒu “hand”

The last two are even graphically sort of similar - a vertical line with several horizontal lines.
Which is of course because both started as a drawing of a hand. Such resemblances are common in logographic scripts.
Oh yeah, I guess you're right. I'm not sure a drawing of a hand would necessarily always produce that shape, though, since actual fingers aren't usually perpendicular to the wrist.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf » 25 Nov 2018 19:08

GrandPiano wrote:
25 Nov 2018 16:30
WeepingElf wrote:
25 Nov 2018 15:01
GrandPiano wrote:
25 Nov 2018 14:43
Sumerian 𒋗 šu “hand”
:chn: 手 shǒu “hand”

The last two are even graphically sort of similar - a vertical line with several horizontal lines.
Which is of course because both started as a drawing of a hand. Such resemblances are common in logographic scripts.
Oh yeah, I guess you're right. I'm not sure a drawing of a hand would necessarily always produce that shape, though, since actual fingers aren't usually perpendicular to the wrist.
Indeed not.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Iyionaku » 25 Nov 2018 19:43

I might be wrong, but as far as I remember Cuneiform changed to a fully logographic writing system, without any pictographs left.
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 26 Nov 2018 00:41

Iyionaku wrote:
25 Nov 2018 19:43
I might be wrong, but as far as I remember Cuneiform changed to a fully logographic writing system, without any pictographs left.
Yes, but some of the logograms originated as pictograms. Same with Chinese characters.

(Also, cuneiform in its most developed state wasn’t fully logographic; there were syllabic elements as well)
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: False cognates

Post by Dormouse559 » 26 Nov 2018 22:40

:eng: step
:fra: étape - step (in a process)

As it turns out, étape is cognate with English "staple".

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Re: False cognates

Post by Dormouse559 » 06 Dec 2018 08:26

:eng: cover
:eng: recover

"Cover" comes from Latin cooperio, but "recover" comes from Latin recupero, making it cognate with "recuperate", which makes a whole lot of sense. Of course, "re-cover", i.e. "cover again", does have the same root as "cover".

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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 23 Dec 2018 00:34

:ara: تقاتل taqātala "to fight one another" (particularly forms where the first syllable is reduplicated like tataqātalūna "you are fighting each other")
:jpn: 戦う tatakau "to fight"
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 13 Jan 2019 06:55

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yapese_language

Yapese roow "to become red" and Standard German rot "red"
...

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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 13 Jan 2019 22:36

;isr: /ki tov/ "For it is good, Bukharian (Judeo-Tajik originally spoken in Uzbekistan, now mainly in Queens, NY) /kitov/ "Book"
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 16 Jan 2019 02:52

It's not as mindblowing as Dormouse's recent revelations, but I've always assumed that pell-mell was in some way cognate either directly to the (busy) street, Pall Mall, or to the (confused) game the street is named after, pall mall, both of which are pronounced with /{/, which isn't that far from /E/.

...but it's not. Pell-mell comes from Frenche pesle-mesle, an intensive rhyme from 'mesler', to mix or meddle. Pall mall and Pall Mall both come from Italian pallamaglio, 'ball-hammer'.

Indeed, apparently Americans even pronounce 'pall mall' as 'pell-mell'? I assume that must be hypercorrection based on this folk etymology, since it's otherwise an irregular change and not motivated by the spelling. Unless it's something to do with later re-borrowing of the word from English and not recognising the RP /{/ vowel?

Although, weirdly, it seems as though the /{/ in Pall Mall was shifted the other way in the US in "mall" (shopping centre), which has /O:/. Which we've since semi-borrowed. Which is particularly weird since this makes it homophonous with 'maul', which IS cognate to 'mall' (both from Latin 'malleus', 'hammer'), and is how 'Pall Mall' looks like it should be pronounced. So maybe it became US 'mall' as a spelling pronounciation, that was then reborrowed? But it's weird the Americans would borrow the same word twice and get the vowels wrong in opposite directions the two times...

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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 05 Feb 2019 03:41

:jpn: かぶる kaburu "to put on one's head; to be covered with"
:eng: cover
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: False cognates

Post by Pabappa » 09 Feb 2019 21:13

:rus: серебро "silver"
:esp: cérebro "brain"
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Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf » 09 Feb 2019 23:26

Pabappa wrote:
09 Feb 2019 21:13
:rus: серебро "silver"
:esp: cérebro "brain"
These are false friends, not false cognates. False cognates are words which look as if they were related but are not. These two aren't related, but nobody would expect them to because their meanings are utterly different.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Pabappa » 10 Feb 2019 00:16

Sorry i get the three threads confused, I did my best to find the right one but I guess I should 've tried harder
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 01 Apr 2019 00:01

:irn: /bæd/ :eng: <Bad>
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 02 Apr 2019 21:26

Guarani ko "this (determiner)"
:jpn: この kono "this (determiner)"

Guarani amo "that over there (determiner)"
:jpn: あの ano "that over there (determiner)"

(Is there a flag code for Paraguay?)
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » 03 Apr 2019 13:17

English: cash (coins of small denomination)
English: cash (ready money)

Not related.

Similarly...

English: cashier (to dismiss a soldier, annul, or put away)
English: cashier (one who takes in money in a bank and puts it away)

And by extension:
English: cashier (to break up a group of soldiers and send them away, effectively exchanging the group for the chance to reallocate their wages)
English: cash (in) (to exchange a group of tokens for money)


And also:
English: cache (hidden location where hunters can store food and supplies)
English: cachet (hidden location from whence hunters can observe birds unseen)

And:

English: cache (a container containing things of value)
English: cachet (a container containing medication)

And:

English: cache (a store of things that have been acquired)
English: catch (to actively acquire)

And:

English: cache (a store of or container of valuable things, or the things so contained or stored)
English: cash (a container containing money or other valuables; a moneybox)

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Re: False cognates

Post by Nmmali » 09 Apr 2019 06:29

This is a little off topic, but I was going to suggest :ita: cane and the on'yomi of :jpn: 犬, (けん, ​ken), but the wiktionary entry for the ultimate Proto-Sino-Tibetan ancestor of ken doesn't seem to rule that connection out. Of course, I am no scholar of Chinese linguistics.

That article, if anyone cares:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... 7%C9%99j-n
Tai yirr Nmmàli la.
1.MASC.TOP. say-PRS.PL Nmmali EXPL.
I speak English | Parlo anche italiano |je parle un peu de français | nihongo wo naratte iru.

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