False cognates

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Shemtov
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 22 May 2019 18:31

Zekoslav wrote:
21 May 2019 15:28
I've always thought it was some kind of derogatory deformation of "Chinese". These are really common in the Balkans (for neighboring peoples, that is...)
I thought that too, but then I realized "then where does the velar(s) come from?"
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Re: False cognates

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 28 May 2019 17:27

Shemtov wrote:
21 May 2019 03:22
This are racist slurs, for a group that isn't mine but when I learned they weren't related, it blew my mind, so please don't shoot me:
:eng:Ching-Chong; Chink; Both racist slurs for East Asians. I always thought the latter was a corruption of the first syllable of the former- my English doesn't allow coda /ŋ/, but rather it's pronounced as [ŋğ̚] (or it could be a post-stopped /ŋ/, not sure) so I though <Chink> came from speakers of similar dialects devoicing the /g/ of <Ching>, but it comes from racists saying "Their eyes look like chinks in a wall"
You, sir, are incorrect. English has three pronunciations for the velar nasal [ŋ] (cf. sing), [ŋk] (cf. sink), and [ŋg] (cf. finger).
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 28 May 2019 23:46

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
28 May 2019 17:27
Shemtov wrote:
21 May 2019 03:22
This are racist slurs, for a group that isn't mine but when I learned they weren't related, it blew my mind, so please don't shoot me:
:eng:Ching-Chong; Chink; Both racist slurs for East Asians. I always thought the latter was a corruption of the first syllable of the former- my English doesn't allow coda /ŋ/, but rather it's pronounced as [ŋğ̚] (or it could be a post-stopped /ŋ/, not sure) so I though <Chink> came from speakers of similar dialects devoicing the /g/ of <Ching>, but it comes from racists saying "Their eyes look like chinks in a wall"
You, sir, are incorrect. English has three pronunciations for the velar nasal [ŋ] (cf. sing), [ŋk] (cf. sink), and [ŋg] (cf. finger).
No, I'm talking about my dialect, and I know there are other dialects that do it, where [ŋ] doesn't exist, it's always [ŋg], perhaps [ŋˑg], though the form [ŋˑg]] is not unknown, especially before a stop or affricate. English is not monolithic.
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Re: False cognates

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 29 May 2019 18:20

Shemtov wrote:
28 May 2019 23:46
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
28 May 2019 17:27
Shemtov wrote:
21 May 2019 03:22
This are racist slurs, for a group that isn't mine but when I learned they weren't related, it blew my mind, so please don't shoot me:
:eng:Ching-Chong; Chink; Both racist slurs for East Asians. I always thought the latter was a corruption of the first syllable of the former- my English doesn't allow coda /ŋ/, but rather it's pronounced as [ŋğ̚] (or it could be a post-stopped /ŋ/, not sure) so I though <Chink> came from speakers of similar dialects devoicing the /g/ of <Ching>, but it comes from racists saying "Their eyes look like chinks in a wall"
You, sir, are incorrect. English has three pronunciations for the velar nasal [ŋ] (cf. sing), [ŋk] (cf. sink), and [ŋg] (cf. finger).
No, I'm talking about my dialect, and I know there are other dialects that do it, where [ŋ] doesn't exist, it's always [ŋg], perhaps [ŋˑg], though the form [ŋˑg]] is not unknown, especially before a stop or affricate. English is not monolithic.
I, really, oughta read stuff closer before posting as I missed "my."
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Re: False cognates

Post by Vlürch » 01 Jun 2019 11:30

:eng: quick
Old Chinese /*qʰʷaːɡ/ - quickly, suddenly

Maybe it's a bit of a stretch, but they do have similar meanings and velars and uvulars aren't that different. Also, even though I don't know of one, I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some English dialect where "quick" is pronounced [kwɑːk] or [kwæk]; I mean, if [ɪ] -> [æ] can happen before /ŋ/ for some people, why not before /k/ since it's also velar?

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Re: False cognates

Post by All4Ɇn » 12 Jun 2019 02:59

Although both of these words ultimately derive their first element from the same Indo-European root, they both derive it from different words in Latin and so I think they still count as false cognates

:bra: para "for" (from Latin per + ad)
:esp: para "for" (from Latin pro + ad)

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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 19 Jun 2019 08:56

just found this:

Aymara malku "king" v.s. the word for "king" in Semitic languages e.g. Hebrew מֶלֶךְ‏ (mélekh) "king" and Arabic مَلِك (malik) "king"
...

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Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf » 20 Jun 2019 18:33

k1234567890y wrote:
19 Jun 2019 08:56
just found this:

Aymara malku "king" v.s. the word for "king" in Semitic languages e.g. Hebrew מֶלֶךְ‏ (mélekh) "king" and Arabic مَلِك (malik) "king"
Yes, I once found this in a list of bogus etymologies adduced as evidence for Atlantis. Another example is Nahuatl teotl 'god' vs. Latin deus and Greek theos - the latter two being also a pair of false cognates.
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 24 Jun 2019 19:48

Japanese 治す(naosu) "to cure, to heal" v.s. English nurse
WeepingElf wrote:
20 Jun 2019 18:33
k1234567890y wrote:
19 Jun 2019 08:56
just found this:

Aymara malku "king" v.s. the word for "king" in Semitic languages e.g. Hebrew מֶלֶךְ‏ (mélekh) "king" and Arabic مَلِك (malik) "king"
Yes, I once found this in a list of bogus etymologies adduced as evidence for Atlantis. Another example is Nahuatl teotl 'god' vs. Latin deus and Greek theos - the latter two being also a pair of false cognates.
ok thanks for telling (:
...

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Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf » 28 Jun 2019 14:34

k1234567890y wrote:
24 Jun 2019 19:48
Japanese 治す(naosu) "to cure, to heal" v.s. English nurse
WeepingElf wrote:
20 Jun 2019 18:33
k1234567890y wrote:
19 Jun 2019 08:56
just found this:

Aymara malku "king" v.s. the word for "king" in Semitic languages e.g. Hebrew מֶלֶךְ‏ (mélekh) "king" and Arabic مَلِك (malik) "king"
Yes, I once found this in a list of bogus etymologies adduced as evidence for Atlantis. Another example is Nahuatl teotl 'god' vs. Latin deus and Greek theos - the latter two being also a pair of false cognates.
ok thanks for telling (:
This becomes evident once you know the Indo-European sound correspondences - an initial /d/ in Latin never corresponds to a Greek /th/. The PIE antecedents are *deiwos for deus and *dhesos for theos. That's two different roots; in PIE, *d and *dh are two distinct phonemes which have nothing more to do with each other than either does with *t. Indeed, each of the two words has cognates in the other language: the Greek cognate of Latin deus is the name Zeus, and the Latin cognate of Greek theos is the fes- in the word festus, the source of English feast.
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 29 Jun 2019 21:27

English LOL v.s. Dutch lol "fun"(attested as early as 1560s) v.s. Welsh lol "nonsense, ridiculous"
WeepingElf wrote:
28 Jun 2019 14:34
k1234567890y wrote:
24 Jun 2019 19:48
Japanese 治す(naosu) "to cure, to heal" v.s. English nurse
WeepingElf wrote:
20 Jun 2019 18:33
k1234567890y wrote:
19 Jun 2019 08:56
just found this:

Aymara malku "king" v.s. the word for "king" in Semitic languages e.g. Hebrew מֶלֶךְ‏ (mélekh) "king" and Arabic مَلِك (malik) "king"
Yes, I once found this in a list of bogus etymologies adduced as evidence for Atlantis. Another example is Nahuatl teotl 'god' vs. Latin deus and Greek theos - the latter two being also a pair of false cognates.
ok thanks for telling (:
This becomes evident once you know the Indo-European sound correspondences - an initial /d/ in Latin never corresponds to a Greek /th/. The PIE antecedents are *deiwos for deus and *dhesos for theos. That's two different roots; in PIE, *d and *dh are two distinct phonemes which have nothing more to do with each other than either does with *t. Indeed, each of the two words has cognates in the other language: the Greek cognate of Latin deus is the name Zeus, and the Latin cognate of Greek theos is the fes- in the word festus, the source of English feast.
ok (:
...

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Re: False cognates

Post by Nortaneous » 29 Jul 2019 00:11

In wordlists of North Bougainville languages, "boat" is almost always given as boato.

Most words were given in the "definite" (it's not actually a definite, but 1950s missionaries were bad at naming things -- words can take the "definite" and the "indefinite" at the same time! unfortunately, they were also bad at describing things, so I don't think anyone's sure what it is), and the "definite article" is /bo-/. The root is just /ato/.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 16 Aug 2019 02:08

:hun: Nő "Woman" vs. the Mandarin, Shanghainese and Xiang pronounciation (without tones) of :chn: 女 "Female", /ny/
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Re: False cognates

Post by Khemehekis » 16 Aug 2019 02:30

Nortaneous wrote:
29 Jul 2019 00:11
In wordlists of North Bougainville languages, "boat" is almost always given as boato.
This looks like a false cognate with the Esperanto!
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Re: False cognates

Post by Nortaneous » 16 Aug 2019 06:14

Vlürch wrote:
01 Jun 2019 11:30
:eng: quick
Old Chinese /*qʰʷaːɡ/ - quickly, suddenly

Maybe it's a bit of a stretch, but they do have similar meanings and velars and uvulars aren't that different. Also, even though I don't know of one, I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some English dialect where "quick" is pronounced [kwɑːk] or [kwæk]; I mean, if [ɪ] -> [æ] can happen before /ŋ/ for some people, why not before /k/ since it's also velar?
Modern English vowel changes before velars are typically before the voiced velars /ŋ g/ but not /k/.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » 16 Aug 2019 21:04

καλώ /kalo/ "I call to" :eng: "to call" The former is from PIE *kelh, and thus its :eng: relative is "to low [as an ox]" while the :eng: is from PIE *gols-, cognate to the Slavic words for "Voice".
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 25 Aug 2019 20:45

English make v.s. Proto-Uralic meke- "to make"
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » 13 Sep 2019 06:34

Maká(a Matacoan language spoken in Paraguay) tenuk “cat” v.s. Japanese たぬき (tanuki) “raccoon dog”
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